Prevailing wage jobs

[sjaniga]

We just finished quoting a prevailing wage job and here in MI it works out to be about 33.00/hr, which means I would have to pay my guys about 12.00/hr more than normal. So when quoting I worked it both ways on the labor, one at the normal billout and one 12.00 more per hour. this was an open bid format, so all bids were posted and all the other contractors were clustered at the lower price, except us, we used the higher billout. after talking to one of the contractors he said they dont actually pay their guys the higher rate. Isnt there supposed to be an agency governing this stuff? Has anyone else come accross this?

[Nick]

Very common occurrence here in California. The problem is enforcement. The state just doesn't have enough money to police it all. The unions here are acting as the enforcers by bringing cheaters up on charges but they (we, I am union) can't catch everyone. They penalty is usually back pay to all the men that worked on the job plus some fines and banned from bidding that type of work for a period of time. One out of state contractor just lost a case having to do with a job in the Mammoth Mountain area. Not only did he not pay the prevailing rate, he didn't pay the $8.00 per hour zone B pay for that area. I don't remember the dollar amount he has to pay back but it is in the 10's of thousands of dollars. Like it or not it is the law and you should comply. If you don't, be ready to pat the piper.

[jerod]

i have worked all sides of the fence on this. as a contractor i was contacted daily by contract administrators. as an contract representative (employed by the federal gov't) i was required to interview every contract employee regarding safety and wages. as an electrician i was contacted numerous times during the job. i must admit that 90% of the contractors are honest. what happens to the other 10%? the effected employees are informed of there rights, the contractor usually complies or the job stops. most of the time the general is taken off the bid list for a year. the subs are the big offenders and the general is held accountable. i think the problem is not going away, when you have a guy pulling wire making more than a guy feeding wire it can get a little cumbersome. here in california on federal jobs the experienced generals know what they can get away with and the unexperienced learn quick. i have seen where a contractor who has been taken off the bid list working again with-in a couple of months or back under a different name. the biggest offenders appear to be the traveling contractor who bids only federal jobs. the facility where i am employed, there is a contract rep on site any time they work, period! i have worked several state jobs and the state contract reps are or were very strict. mammoth mountain is out in the boonies and the contractors are usually travelers and not many of them bidding i would think, at least that is how it is in my rural area just over the mountain from you. we may put a job out and not get any bidders and go to the banned contractor and watch closely.

[tkirk911]

CONTACT STATE LABOR BOARD AND INFORM THEM. THEY ARE REQUIRED BY LAW TO INVESTIGATE. FURTHERMORE, THEY WILL REQUIRE THE CONTRACTOR TO PRODUCE CERTIFIED PAYROLL AND MAY EVEN ASK THE EMPLOYEES.
IN DELAWARE, THE LABOR BOARD MAKES MONTHLY VISITS TO ALL JOB SITES THAT ARE PREVAILING WAGE. MENTAL NOTE: PREVAILING WAGE IS A WAY TO KEEP THE UNION COMPETIVE

[msmeth]

Don't cheat. I don't see how you can anyway, but we don't have a larcinist mind set. I am in CA and don't cheat on State or Fed and still spent untold hours writting letters to to buricrats that don't know May 25th was a Sunday. Yes all this bull is to protect the unions, insted of doing what is right for the people of the state.

There are a lot of tricks in the big commercial jobs. If you don't play along you don't play. I stopped playing.

1. You pay your guys the prevailing wage, you just don't pay them for all their hours. They're happy, you're happy, the customer is happy. It's illegal.

2. You bid jobs at cost and pay the prevailing wage. This may be be what some of the other contractors did who bid the job low. Every commercial job has major change orders. You do the base contract at cost and you play by the rules you make no profit on the base contract. Then you BLAST them on the change orders. This is not illegal but you do have to be a gambling man and have large testicles.

I have chosen not to play either game.

[luke warmwater]

awwt, I'm with you on this one.

Your #2 is also done in non-wage jobs and in residential.

If you're good, you make money on the base bid and on the extras.

It is easier to keep good employees when you're always making money.

[don_resqcapt19]

awwt,
The pervailing wage rules do not apply to commerical jobs. They only apply to government jobs.
Don

[cm]

What do you do if your guys have to go back to non prevaling wage work ,mine all cry about it,dont want to do service work,for old customers etc Ive told them they have to take the good with the bad and if they dont like it leave they can be replaced!

[roger]

Cm, your point needs to be expanded on.

Let's take employees that are allowed to take lunch when they want to, take breaks when they want to, work the days they want to, etc... now, try to impose a set of rules regulating the above,
they will "drag up" and go to work for another company that already have these rules in place.

The point is, when someone is given anything that is changed or taken away, they will always feel cheated and the employer / employee relationship is gone in most cases.

I have found that if using Davis Bacon rules, most are well above this anyways.

Roger

[brian john]

Roger:

Take it a step further; I worked for a company that gave holidays, vacation and a bonus at Xmas. Unusual in this area for a union contractor in the 70's.

One year during lean times the company did not give a bonus. The men cried they were being ripped off. I had only been there a short time and had not had the benefit of a bonus so I knew no better.

About six months latter an apprentice went to the owners office to say several of the superintendents and foremen (long time employees) had cheated him out of copper money. Seems they had him at one of their houses stripping copper on company time. This opened up a can of worms a supply house was in on it and everyone was getting a cut of the stolen copper (full rolls of 500 kcmil) except the apprentice. Whom the thieves thought they could stiff out of his cut.

Point is Bonus’s once given are assumed to be an entitlement.

The firm I'm with now gives everyone bonuses at Xmas, and we know even in lean times to pay them out.

[brian john]

Were a union contractor, we pay above scale and above union benefits. We compete in a union, non-union environment, service rates are about the same, for both union and non-union companies, yet the non-union electricians make from 5 to 12 dollars less an hour, have less benefits, and protections. My non-union customers (electrical contractors) just have bigger houses and nicer boats, I guess. They (the contractors) do give me a hard time about ruining the wage base for their employees, they feel union companies drive up wages (I agree).

I like knowing that our employees get the best, I also feel the best will want to work where they can make the most for their 40 plus hours, have decent transferable retirement and full paid health insurance. Of course try and take away any one of the above in lean times............................................. ......

[luke warmwater]

Where's that 'Can 'o Worms'??

[cm]

Brian I started in 1976 in an union residential/inside shop with two differnt rates,this created a lot of hate and discontent amoung the help, they still do it, dont you think if the scale was higher the open shops would charge near the same rate? . I started out in residential because I didnt have any relatives in the local to get an inside apprenticeship, there wasnt an recipical/transferable pension differnt locals kept your money neighboring locals and tramps the officers should be incarcirated in there retirement for this.Now there aprox 1100 on the bench and no target money left some times 1/2 a loaf is better than none you cant run a union without work! Its startin to look like the 80"s all over

[brian john]

CM:

Our local was also very hard to get into I worked non-union for 8 years, actually took a cut in pay to start as a residential union wireman in the local. I only did commercial work as a foreman and on weekends the second year and higher "A" apprentices made more money than I did (they got double time I got time and a half). Needless to say this caused me grief.

I stuck it out and got my "A" ticket in record time (a secretary at the local pushed it through). When we started this company we weighed the pros and cons and decided, the pros out weighed the cons and went union.

.
The local is trying to upgrade long term residential with an Upgrade Program, a lot of “R” men have upgraded and some won't, can't imigine why. Part of the upgrade requiremnet is a having licenses and this is most likely holding some back.

Having worked union and non-union. I feel there is little difference in quality. Foreman, superintendent and companies drive quality, IMO.

I do believe that in our area the best electricians are in the union because the best usually get their license and try to get the most pay for the time expended.

Not to say there isn't dead wood in the union, and that these electrician's make the same as a licensed, concerned, quality electrician get's to me sometimes, but that's another story (and I don't employee these types).

Originally posted by brian john:
CM:

<snip>I stuck it out and got my "A" ticket in record time (a secretary at the local pushed it through). <snip>The old Catch-22: If you don't have a job you can't get into the Union, and if you're not in the Union you cannot get a job.

Solution: Buy your card. Sign the "out-of-work" list. Wait several months for your name to come to the top of the list-- or take a crap job when the people ahead of you opt out of taking it.

[don_resqcapt19]

Buy your card.Any local that is caught selling cards will be placed under the supervision of the International. That is not a good thing for a local
Don

[brian john]

Pre 1970’s this local was very family oriented, due to new leaders this has changed and the union has grown because of this. New members (unless they have licenses or a special skill) now become R workers for a period of time and they go through an upgrade program.

[hillbilly]

I just realized, normally I'm pretty quick, that this forum is geared toward unionized labor. I'm a independant trying to compete in todays market. When I look around, I think that I have the advantage.

[ty]

Originally posted by brian john:
CM:
I stuck it out and got my "A" ticket in record time (a secretary at the local pushed it through).

But isn't this one thing that the Union is supposed to prevent in the first place-- Favortism??

I feel there is little difference in quality. Foreman, superintendent and companies drive quality, IMO.

I would like to add: a good crew that you trust is invaluable. Union or Open Shop


Not to say there isn't dead wood in the union, and that these electrician's make the same as a licensed, concerned, quality electrician get's to me sometimes, but that's another story (and I don't employee these types). It is totally unjust to a customer to send known "dead wood" to their job. U. or OS.
You as an employer do not have to employ 'these types', but what can or does the Hall do about these types??

[brian john]

TY:

In our local there is a three strike policy, three filed complaints and your out.
I also stated that this local has improved on this old boy type of operation.

Hillbilly:

Why would you make such a statement. Seems a bit short sited based upon the wealth of information that can be garnered from this site. In my short time here I have seen very littl banter regarding union and non-union. The comments made were neither pro or anti union just my belief, that I like knowing my employees get the best and in this area the best is with the union There are some open shops that do take very good care of their employees. These companies have little or no turnover and do top quality work, but when the owners shut their doors the employees have some benefits that are not transferable.

Do you take care of your employees, holidays, vacation, THE BEST HEALTH CARE available, excellent retirement, good apprenticeship schools. All transferable from company to company.

Originally posted by hillbilly:
<snip>I'm a independant trying to compete in todays market. When I look around, I think that I have the advantage. Note: On a prevailing wage job everybody typically has to adhere to the same minimum wage regardless of their status-- Union or Open Shop. All bid things being equal the benefit of the doubt might go to a Union shop, or it might go to an Open Shop with a good history. The playing field should be pretty level in a prevailing wage job (subject to nepotism and/or incompetance-- meaning incompetant bid letters). There are ways to appeal Davis-Bacon prior to submission of a bid, and prior to commencement of construction. The appeal process is very difficult and may not result in a net financial benefit.

Compliance Assistance — The Davis-Bacon and Related Acts (DBRA) US Dept. of Labor (http://www.dol.gov/dol/compliance/comp-dbra.htm)

../Wayne

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