doing the minimum

[jbwhite]

I am new to this forum, and have following a several threads in which I find the posts a bit disconcerting.

Since my earliest days as a helper (save companies that I quit) my employers have taught me that the NEC is the minimum requirement. We have always put in more circuits than were needed. We added to service calculations for future use. Put GFCIs where we thought they were a better option. etc.

Maybe the reason why I don't live in a $100,000,000.00 house is because I didn't do the bare minimum work for the largest price I could get.
I don't want to debate the details of other threads here, (they are already being debated) I would like to know what is the common practice in the industry.

The reason why I am concerned is that I have found, many times, that the code proves itself to be what it claims to be "a minimum requirement".

Take the large house for example. You know that the new owner is going to insist on having every latest and greatest gadget that money can by. Is it reasonable to assume that two circuits are enough for their kitchen or should you put two outlets on a circuit? Should switched outside outlets be installed at grade, and below the soffit for the extravagant seasonal lights that you know they will want?

Is it just me, or do others here believe that where the code fails, common sence and good judgement should be applied?

[ November 30, 2005, 06:31 PM: Message edited by: jbwhite ]

[charlie b]

The code is minimum. It even says so. It does not guarantee a useful installation or a happy owner.

My answer to your question boils down to establishing a good relationship with the owners. You can give the owners the minimums, and walk away. You will pass inspection, but you won't get a good word-of-mouth recommendation for possible future work. So talk with the owners. Find out what they want, what they think they really need, and what they would be willing to live without if the price were too high. If they can't afford to do everything, then talk to them about putting in a system of empty conduits and boxes. That way they can add things later, as the money becomes available, without having to pay for fishing through walls for making holes in walls.

[iwire]

Originally posted by jbwhite:
Is it just me, or do others here believe that where the code fails, common sence and good judgement should be applied? I am not sure what you are looking for, I will give you my own view.

The first three things I think of are the following.

90.1 Purpose.

(A) Practical Safeguarding. The purpose of this Code is the practical safeguarding of persons and property from hazards arising from the use of electricity.

(B) Adequacy. This Code contains provisions that are considered necessary for safety. Compliance therewith and proper maintenance will result in an installation that is essentially free from hazard but not necessarily efficient, convenient, or adequate for good service or future expansion of electrical use.

(C) Intention. This Code is not intended as a design specification or an instruction manual for untrained persons. I could not care less about 90.1(D), however I think part of 90.1(B) is worth repeating.

Compliance therewith and proper maintenance will result in an installation that is essentially free from hazard but not necessarily efficient, convenient, or adequate for good service or future expansion of electrical use. I would not want it any other way. In my opinion there is nothing wrong with code minimums if that is the type of job the person paying the bill wants.

Many small homes will (and do) just fine with the code minimums.

Here on this forum we mostly discuss (in excruciating detail :D ) the actual NEC rules.

Inspectors as well as electricians have a right and a need to know what exactly the code requires. They should not be working based on what they were taught 20 years ago or doing things simply because "we have always done it that way"

Once we know the actual requirements than we can decide when, or if we should exceed them.

Just my two cents.

[ November 30, 2005, 06:50 PM: Message edited by: iwire ]

[jimwalker]

I just finished a house like this a month ago.The owner wanted certain things like a circuit for x mas lights on a switch.And being it was an extra i wired it as if it was for me.GFCI breaker in panel because i sure would not want to clime up a ladder to reset the outlet.Lots of 3 ways and dimmers.I feel he will enjoy this house as it was wired beyond min. code.However he got a bill to go with all the extras.If they want the cheapest price then they get the min.Nothing in life is free.Suggest extras to them to think about but at same time don't let it sound like your trying load them up with extras to line your pocket.

[jeff43222]

The biggest problem I see in this regard is when large numbers of houses are built by a builder in a subdivision. The EC never has any contact with anyone who will live in the house, so none of this stuff gets discussed. Since quantity is the name of the game, the EC will look for ways to squeeze out some extra profit.

I looked at a large house earlier this year that was only a few years old, but it was wired with 100A service and a 20-space panel. I'm sure all the other ones in the neighborhood were done the same way. But putting in 200A service and a bigger panel, more receptacles, etc. costs more, and I bet the GC didn't want to add to the cost because he probably didn't think the extra cost was worth it.

You do get what you pay for. One reason I specialize in remodel jobs is that I have much more input into the design process, and that allows me to discuss options with the homeowner and point out things he may not have thought of. I never recommend anything unless I truly believe it's a good idea. I've got plenty of work and don't need to upsell people to make money.

But this all really has nothing to do with the code. It's a minimum, and that's all it claims to be. I rarely do things to minimum code, but sometimes it's the best route.

[macmikeman]

Mr. White, you have a decent attitude and are probably a very good electrician. I applaud your willingness to exceed at the trade. However, if you are contracting, it is also important to balance this zeal with the betterment of your lot, and the health of your company. Just a reminder to you to take care of your bottom line also. Now good luck to you, and keep up the good work. Mike.

[electricmanscott]

Despite what I have said in other posts I generally go too far above code minimums. Perhaps this will be my downfall someday. However, one of the threads you might be referring to is full of poppycock. :D

[jimwalker]

Many people say i only want min..But very few really understand just what that is.Code only requires a switched outlet in bedrooms and living rooms,that could be the easiest one for the electrician.No ceiling fans,electric range,water heater,closet lights.Ceiling light in bathrooms,kitchen and halls can be a jelly jar.Just maybe they really don't want the min. :D

[mdshunk]

Low end spec house... barely meets minimum requirements.
Middle of the road spec house... add a few extras that make sense.
Large dollar spec or custom home... pull out all the stops, and suggest things at every turn. Just make sure you get those charge orders signed.

[macmikeman]

Moderators, and other readers, please forgive me double posting but I would like to add one more thing, no two things. One is extra outlets such as Christmas lighting switched outlets should be charged for and paid for. The other thing though is the non outlet upgrades - such as that extra empty raceway up to the attic from the panel for future upgrade work - those type of things I put in for free at my expense, "sometimes" on jobs. Sometimes I use 1/0 ser cable when a #2 ser cable would meet 310-15, but I just do it. The payback over the years has been in re-occurring callbacks from general contractors who know the difference and appreciate good work. They have let me know that they recognize the difference, and that is why they like using my services. These items cost me money and time, but the payback is more work and I am usually able to graduate up to higher profit bids once I get em on the hook for a while. So done right, it also can be a boon. Just be sure, like I said in the first post, to not do it in a manner that sends your profits down below your break even on anything like a regular basis.

[George Stolz]

jbwhite, welcome to the forum. You've had a prolific twelve days! :)

[pierre]

"You can't even be certain people will like freebies that are visible. Someone might not like the appearance of a receptacle in their soffit. Always ask."

George, truer words were never spoken.
A few weeks ago, an EC called me and asked me to come to a jobsite to help sort out a large mess. It is a very high end remodel job, where both the husband and wife are attorneys.

The EC had installed additional wall switches in several location, on a couple of floors. The homeowners wanted them removed. So I went to see what was up and try to help the EC. All of the additional switches that the homeowners wanted removed were not required by the code. The house was already prime coat painted. What a house - whew!!! I can tell you it is not going to be an easy feat to remove some of the switches, as they are 4-ways.

[jimwalker]

One thing i learned fast is it is usually harder to remove an outlet than to add one.Simply do not add anything that is not on the print unless you get an OK first.As for giving things away,not a chance.Ask your men if they are willing to work overtime for free so we can give mr and mrs xxxx some free x mas outlets :D :D :D

[jwelectric]

My granddaughter is taking drivers ed at school so I was looking around at used car lots for her a car. I found one that the man was asking $500 dollars for. I though to myself that $500 wouldn’t be a bad price for the car so I told him I would be back to pick it up that evening.

When I got here that afternoon to get that old piece of junk it was sitting at the front of the lot with a temp tag and ready to go. When I saw it I lost my cool and was madder than a wet setting hen in a thunder storm. I flew into cussing and stomping around like a banshee. This used car salesman couldn’t figure out just what was wrong and was doing his best to get me to settle down and talk about the problem. After I got wore out and had to catch my breath we did talk.

Here is what he said to me:
This car sells for $500 dollars as is. If I want the motor rebuilt, a new paint job, four new tires and the cracked windshield replaced he will be glad to do it for me.
Now we were getting some where and I began to settle down and I was real happy about what he was going to do for me------UNTILL-------he brought out another contract that stated the price of this car is now $3500.

Just what was this man thinking? This old piece of junk is a 1980 model with 250,000 miles on it. Even with a new motor and paint job this piece of junk still won’t be worth more that $500. This fool has lost his mind.

The same can be said about a $100,000 house. Install a 400 amp service, 4 or 5 small appliance circuits, ever room on a circuit of its own, switched receptacles for Christmas lights, future pipes in ever room and from the panel going up and down and other bells and whistles and what will you have in the end. A $100,000 house.

The code is designed so that if the system is installed per code you will have a safe installation. I bid my work based on the requirement of the code. Should the general contractor or home owner want more then I ask them if they know Ben Franklin. It is so simple to get what ever you desire installed in this house just send old Ben over to do your talking and it will be done. If Ben don’t come then code is all you going to get.
:)

[George Stolz]

...what will you have in the end. A $100,000 house. ...that sells three days sooner. :p

[jeff43222]

I've seen a lot of installations where it was done in a way differently than I would have done it, but it was still code-compliant. I never install anything unless I get the OK from the homeowner. Always find out in advance what they want above and beyond what code requires. I wouldn't assume they want receptacles for Christmas lights; maybe they're like me and never put up such things.

This issue has never been a problem for me, but I go out of my way to make sure the homeowner and I are clear on the scope of the work before I start cutting holes in his walls.

[haskindm]

The NEC is only concerned with safety. See article 90.1. It is not a design document(90.1C). Most of the discussions on this board are our attempts to discern what the code says, what it means, and how to meet the requirements; thus we are often discussing minimums. That does not mean that there are many times when we should and do exceed the minimums. One of the many hats that a successful electrical contractor needs to wear is the salesman hat. The code REQUIRES safety, we need to SELL convenience, adequacy, and efficiency. If we do this successfully we will have satisfied customers and a better "bottom line". It is easy to do an installation "to code", but we earn customer respect and loyalty by selling them an efficient and convenient installation. Unfortunately most customers have short memories. They often only look at the final price and don't think about what they are getting for that price. It is an uphill battle all the way.

[jwelectric]

Originally posted by georgestolz:
[b] [quote]...what will you have in the end. A $100,000 house. ...that sells three days sooner. ;)

[j_erickson]

Mike,

Well said. I give my customer exactly what he wants, as long as it is code compliant. I have a builder who puts a whole lot more in his $800,00.00 + homes than he does in his "starter" homes. He's dealing with 2 different markets. He in turn has to satisfy his customers.

Instead of blaming an electrician for installing the minimum, lets look at the guy hiring him (GC)and what he wants. Lets look further at who's buying the homes and what they want. If home buyers are so unhappy with the "tract homes" why do they continue to buy them?

As far a electricians getting together to settle on pricing, though, sounds a little like collusion. How about electricians getting together to understand how to run a business? Certainly one problem with young electricians (as well as some not so young) is that they are better as electricians than as businessmen. I'd consider myself to have been in that category as well.

[macmikeman]

Most residential electrical contractors that have been in the field for the same period of time don’t come close to $20.00 per hour average and most have no benefits at all. ?????????????????? Jw, If I was y'all, I'd hitch up my wagon and start movin out west of them there pararie's. Sounds to me like the Carolina's is sorta poverty like.

[jwelectric]

Originally posted by macmikeman:
[quote] Jw, If I was y'all, I'd hitch up my wagon and start movin out west of them there pararie's. Sounds to me like the Carolina's is sorta poverty like. Here is a job that I copied the pay and experience from their ad and pasted here for an electrician. This is for a commercial electrician which will be a higher wage than a residential electrician. This is in the same city that the link for a plans examiner job opening is at.

Base Pay: $12.00 - $18.00/Hour
Req'd Experience: 3 or more years

Plans Examiner (http://www.nciaei.org/Forms/Plans_Examiner.pdf)


What is the pay in your area for a good residential electrician?

[macmikeman]

Its a trade secret thing over here. By the way, the women are all horribly ugly also, and the weather is terrible. Over here everybody wants to move to South Carolina as soon as we can scrape together enough money to buy a steamship passage. :D

[jwelectric]

I know what you mean about the ugly women we are all loaded up on the next stage out of town ourselves.

http://www.digitalleisure.com/MD2/Stage_Coach.jpg

[shelco]

Getting what you are worth is not collusion it is smart business. The plumbers have figured it out so have most of the HVAC guys (girls)

You do have to know your costs to stay in business and what you work is worth and charge accordingly to make a good living.
When you buy a car there is the base price and extra cost for options, if you want more you pay more. To make more money you charge more and/or reduce cost. Simple. Profit is not a dirty word.

[macmikeman]

Thats all true Shelco, but you still want a car that will go for more than 5,000 miles when you buy one. Thats the point exactly. If you want the options on a new car you got to pay for them. But the car itself, if a higher quality, will sell more units than the bunko car for a comparable price. The quality needs to be there also for customer demand. Its no different in our world. If they want a structured wiring network, that is going to cost. But if I put in an extra kitchen SA circuit, thats my quality getting built into my product. When I wire for a long term customer who is willing to pay me about double what he could get elsewhere, (I have two really steady ones like this), then he is going to get a much better than code job from me. However I will still charge that customer for extra work not shown on the plans. What I don't charge for is the #12 for all receptacles instead of using 14 like the track bangers do. I put in switches for lights, not switched outlets like the code allows, those type of things. For a cheapskate g.c. I will not even stick in a doorbell system. I make the bottom fishers scream for mercy with all my cheapo techniques I use on them. It depends on the customer, and whether I care to continue to work for them or not.

[peter d]

Well, since I was one of the people that I believe the OP is referring to, I will step to the firing line.

Bare in mind I am talking about strictly residential, as it is far more code regulated than other occupancies where the electrical installation is at the discretion of designers and/or installers.

I can see absolutely no value in exceeding code minimums, if I am not being paid for it. Now, if we go to the other end of the spectrum, and assume an open checkbook, that doesn't mean I will go crazy with PVC coated RMC either.

I would like to restate the point Mike made earlier. Electricians should be able to do calculations and understand the code, not simply do things they are told would make a "better" installation.

[jbwhite]

Originally posted by peter d:
Well, since I was one of the people that I believe the OP is referring to,I was not refering to any "people". I am sorry if some here found my post to be insulting.

From what I have read, the bottom line is that it comes down to the sales aspect. I don't suggest that anyone do work for free, or loose money. To mis-quote someone from another forum, "I can stay home on the sofa and go broke, I dont have to go out and bust my butt to do it".

I do mostly commercial work. When I estimate a job I always add a few bucks for "incidentials".
When something looks like it would be a better idea, even though it was not on the origianl bid, I add it. I make a point of telling everyone involved, in a diplomatic way, that I am doing this at no additional cost. The GC's that I work for like the way I bid and love having some leverage of "free" extras, before asking for money for extras.

[peter d]

Originally posted by jbwhite:
I was not refering to any "people". I am sorry if some here found my post to be insulting.

No worries. I wasn't insulted at all. But I was indeed a very loud voice advocating code minimums. :D

[electricmanscott]

I'm working on a house right now and the builders called me on the job today to remind me...cheap!
Exactly what they will get bare bones code minimum. Whoever moves in there better have lamps with six foot cords. :eek:

[jwelectric]

In my Code Prep and Inspector classes I deal with people who have been in the electrical trade for years.
I have taught Code Prep classes to people who already hold a license and preparing to upgrade to a bigger license.
In the Inspector classes I have taught inspectors that have been inspecting for years and are upgrading the certificate to a higher level.

One of the things that I always have a difficult time accepting is that over 70% of these people can’t even do a simple box calculation let a lone a service calculation. They have become complacent with what they do and have no desire to do any better.
They have convinced their selves that what they do is so much superior to others that they forget what they were taught.

I have said many, many times that there are a lot of real good installers working in the field today but very few electricians and this includes those that hold a license.
When I make a statement as bold as this I don’t feel that I am insulating anyone. If someone is insulated by this statement it was not me doing the insulating it was their own mindset that insulted them.
As a grade school teacher once told me, “there is no shame in ignorance but a lot of shame in stupidity. It is only the stupid man that will wallow in ignorance when he has the ability to obtain an education.”

When I use a book of rules to install a system and then I am so bold as to say that I know more than that book,-- well you be the judge.
The book that I use starts off with the first line in its introduction as follows.
The purpose of this Code is the practical safeguarding of persons and property from hazards arising from the use of electricity. :)

[shelco]

Macmikeman, I agree totally with what you say.
My point is that there is a minimum that is very acceptable. And if that is what the customer wants that is what he gets.
your analogy of your customers willing to pay for a higher grade jobs is what I am talking about, these customers know the value it offers. As far as using #12 instead of 14 I seriously doubt that you price 14 and give 12. the 12 price is included, as such you are providing an upgrade to the customer and value. No one sells a Cadillac for a Chevy price. Your thought process is admirable and I wish all contractors had your thought process, it just raises the bar for our industry, the customer gets quality and we get paid what we are worth. Unfortunately there are always those that try to do less than minimum just to increase bottom line when the actual way to increase bottom line is to do more and get paid for it.