Residential Grade Material

[copper123]

How many electrial contractors use the residential grade material that is out there?

Homeline Gear
15 amp residential devices, ect.

I am just starting a small residential shop, got my Admin license ( masters ) and alas... am finding out how tight some of the bids are.
To be honest, I have wired 40-50 houses, but they have always been for owners that have wanted myself or my old company I worked for to do the work. I guess you could say I was spoiled. If if took a little longer, no biggie. We, I, always assured a quaility product and everything looked almost Anal nice. Actually they always did. My primary work has been commercial/Industrial and after awhile you get a mind set on how things should look. Its amazing after awhile how almost anything that is not plumb or square will shout out at you. Anyhow, to make a long story short, I am having a terrible time even wanting to compete with some of these electrical contractors. I either need to develop some new stratagies to get quicker, or just except that you can meet code, have a safe product and just make your self understand that everything does not have to be completely clean and tight. For instants I like to spend the time and mark my studs so all my wires are completely strait when I drill them. I have gone into a few of the houses that have been very low on bids and they look like a spiderweb above you. Anyway, enough of my rant, but back to my first question, do you guys install homeline gear, and cheap residential grade devices?

Thanks, this is a great site to learn!

[cs409]

If you are going to be one of the workers as well as the owner, you should be able to keep 75 percent of your NEAT/CLEAN work even with a tight bid....one thing going for you, when you do bid work, you can have some show and tell for the owner of the next job to look at while they are letting out for bid on their home etc. As for as product goes! hmmm, boy, your going to get a ton of BS on this issue....i do not use the 50 cent plugs and switches! just not worth the 50 cents or so you save....as for panel boxes,,,well, you have been in the trade long enough to know what works, what gives problems etc....in recent yrs i have switched to CH panels....as for as Home line verses QO...hmmmm, to be honest, out of 100 home line and 100 QO i haven't had a major problem with either(most problems where branch breaker only and only one main and that was a QO)...big problem with homeline is the plastic retainer to clip the breaker in...but then again, i have had QO breakers not want to seat/grab(what ever u wish to say )without some problems....service calls on all boxes run about the same for me. but like i said, your going to get a bunch of post on this i think, and am sure you will get some post that sound like an engineers report with product makeup etc etc! just remember, for every hour your spend on call backs that is double the money your losing soooo, it is your call LOL

one thing i have done over the years is to stay away from #4 service for 100amp ...i use #2 or #1, just depending on the distance etc etc ....so, get ready for the post, am sure i will get some also LOL...

[bphgravity]

Cheap and inexpensive don't always mean the same thing. Residential grade products are for just that, residential work. As long as the devices and materials you use are listed and approved by your AHJ, I see no issue with using them. :)

[cs409]

well said, bphgravity ,,,,probably will be the best response....am still waiting on the nasty responses and emails LOL

[copper123]

wow, better tell everyone how i feel before I get toasted! For the record, I will not install 15 amp devices at all. Specially in the Decora makes. I have had a lot of switch failers on guys that have installed on my jobs. I am sure they are not spending the time to get some memory in the wires and are trying to jam the device into the opening. But... they still break really easy at the termination screws. About the gear, that is really tough. Its UL listed, ect. I have started bidding work with the homeline product. The difference between a QO and a homeline in price is really tough to beat. I have talked to a few electricians and they have not had any problems, so there you have it.

[copper123]

Also on the same line, I was in Idaho a month or so ago, and they pretty much use Aluminum on all direct burial underground work for feeders, laterals, ect. I have never used it! It sure was at a good price. :D

[electricmanscott]

Ok copper I'll give to you straight. Save yourself the ineveitable stress heartache and failure to come. Close up shop now. There is no way in hell you will survive if you are bidding against other guys based on what you have written. There is absolutely nothing wrong with 15 amp devices. Measuring and marking out lines on studs before drilling is a huge waste of time. The only person that will care or notice this is you. Low bid does not neccesarily mean a bad job. Everyone has different ideas and methods when it comes to this stuff. Yours will not always be the best. Give people a code compliant, safe, and realtively neat installtion and leave it it that. When all is said and done people are much more concerened with the color of the paint than the wiring in the walls that they can't even see.

[mjf]

[QUOTE]Originally posted by electricmanscott:
Measuring and marking out lines on studs before drilling is a huge waste of time. The only person that will care or notice this is you.


I must disagree. It only takes a few minutes to snap a line on joists, then just keep your heights real close by eye. Snap lines on studs then drill in center by eye.


The ease of pulling wire through nice, neat (straight, equal height) holes will actually save you time, and you get the benefit (and satisfaction) of knowing you did the best job you can do and be proud of your work.


There are times when my brain screams at me to take short cuts (hot crawlspace type attic with my face in old insulation, etc.), but once I finish the job correctly, they are the most rewarding jobs.

[cs409]

like i said earlier,,,,if your going to be one of the hands as well as the owner....u can keep 75% of your neat work habits,,,,,,,,,like popping a string line to drill your holes by,,,,,,, true, mom and dad only worry if the plants look good , the paint is the right color and the doors open..........but if they are showing up during the building process.....well,,,,,neat does pay off in the long run,,,,as i stated in the earlier post,,,,show n tell during a bid is worth a bunch of work!!!
Also,if u get a gun slinger for an Inspector,sloppy will piss them off...neat will work much better and save you time also! neat is all over the NEC but in 2005 isnt neat going to be a bigger issue? correct me please if am wrong.
one thing when you start to cut corners, something gets less attention...sloppy looking work usually leads to bad workmanship, which leads to danger...which could lead to the paint burning off the house :D

[copper123]

The way I look at the strait holes is two fold. 1. ease of the wire pull. 2. It looks very professional. You can get pretty close if you use a right angle drill and lock it tight to your leg, but.... it just takes one drill hole off to make the installation look bad. Also, if you look at an installation that has the holes at numerous elevations, in my humble opinion it looks very pore. A story always comes to mind when i think about my whole workmanship problem. On Christmas day in the city that i was working, a man had his top story of a two story house burn. The fire dept. caught it pretty quick, but the top floor was a total loss. Well, the insurance company came in, they couldn't find the cause of the fire, they felt that it started in the corner of the garage, went into the attic of the garage and started the top floor on fire. Well, they tore that place apart. The insurance company demo'd all the sheetrock off the remaining walls on the top floor and also the entire bottom floor. At or about this time the owner contacted the company that I worked for and wanted me to do the electrical work when they rebuilt. He had been told that it had been an electrical fire. When i arrived i asked the inspectors what they were doing. They were going over the old electrical installation with a fine tooth comb. The problem was, the installation looked wonderful! I was proud of the old installer. The romex was strait. everything was code compliant ect. One of the things the inspectors were looking for was staples installed too tight. Anyhow, what really was pressed into my mind was the fact that the old sayings, out of sight, out of mind or it looks good at my house really didnt apply. I know a lot of guys that give a sigh of relief when the rock goes up. They want to get that ugly installation covered up. Anyhow, here was a entire house that was wide open again, all the rock off and people trying to pick it apart. To say the least, it was a very sober day for me, and from that day on, I dont pull a foot of wire without thinking about that. Oh, also, I think they still tried to gig the contractor, it went into court and I lost track of it.

[cs409]

when they cant seem to find a true cause, it gets blamed on electrical. or the better one is...last sub on the job so rides the entire cause for any problems that arise.....

[electricmanscott]

I'm not saying string it up like the Griswolds at Christmas but I am telling you people do not care or notice. Neat is one thing and I agree with and operate like that but anal is another. If you are bidding tight jobs and actually want to make money and survive put the chalk line away and drill the holes. This is not cutting corners. The original post points out the fact that he is bidding tight jobs against low ball type contractors. I think we all know what the real answer here is.

[shocker3218]

I just want to respond to the Homeline/Qo issue. Having worked in the factory for several years, I can tell you that the internal parts are exactly the same. They go down the same assembly line. The only real differene is the plastic case they are installed in and the lack of flag. They go throught the same test and testing machines.

For my 2 cents worth - I like a neat clean job and I usually hold the drill at my knee level to make the hole the same height. If you learn to use body parts for measurments you can save a lot of time. Another example - my nose is exacly 6 ft above floor level./

[apauling]

There is another side to the nail holes in a row. I like neat. Real neat comes with a price tag sorta like the one that comes with real pretty. What happens when you start hitting nails at the marking. The bits don't last too long if you keep cutting the nails. It also drives the nail out of the siding and has even split siding, or the 2x4. I also don't like to drill holes where the braces are let in, or there are other defects

All the holes in a neat row creates a weak flex point along a wall. Sorta neat isn't so bad. Add a few more series of holes for home runs and the whole run becomes a group of weak points.

This is also sort of like the panel electricians who leave the wires so tight that remodeling is a royal pain with splices, and then arguing with the inspector over fill capacity, (exception for splices in panels reduces fill to 40% if I remember correctly). Sometimes you end up feeling like a miracle worker getting it back together. It sure looked pretty before the job started. A little slack would have helped. "It looked so good before you moved everything around." "Yeah! but it didn't work that way." what else can you say?

This is not to denigrate super neat, but sometimes it has drawbacks.

I also liked to leave homeruns long at the panel so that the eventual remodeling will have some room to play. Maybe I was just atoning for the past and it all is bs, but I have been grateful as .... when there was room (wire, ampacity, space, ko's, whatever) left for me.

I also always wondered why twisted pair for com. wiring when straight for power. Aren't the harmonics the same. I know it's changed to cat wiring and beyond, but aren't the same forces at work here? if that is true, then it's also true that very neat paralleled home runs induce more harmonics than messy. :)

paul

[cs409]

so your saying if all the holes drilled for wire run are in the same location on each stud, you have created a weak flex point across a wall? gee,,,wonder why pre fab metal studs have them in the same location? and the punch outs on pre fab wooden joist etc have them in the same place? i thought only plumbers messed up and weaken structures to please there lazy butts!!

[apauling]

i didn't say it was against code, unless the holes are oversize. Are you saying that that point is not substantially weaker (10% min with 25% plus removed along a straight line) along that wall? Houses used to be built with idea that there were to be compromises, but many houses are now engineered and I do not think that perfectly symetrical holes in each stud are anticipated.

Manufactured items with preexisting (or pre-conceived) holes are engineered with those holes considered. Their specs include those considerations.

The manufactured beams have holes pre-engineered holes in them that are illegal in solid wood joists. If I understand your logic correctly, you are saying that we should allow in joists what is allowed in manufactured beams, but it doesn't necessarily follow. The beam's rating includes those considerations while a joist is rated for grade and type of wood, with no holes included.

Wood quality has slowly deteriorated over the last 50 years due to dwindling supplies, the use ofevery last stick, general economics, and tight purse strings. I'm not sure if the actual ratings have changed very much over time for wood nominal sizes, but floors built with the same 2x years ago seem much more solid, the wood had fewer flaws, and is even harder to drill.

This subject should stay light and not personal as its basic topic is a touchy subject, implying criticism. If merely pointing out that a structural weakness is created, though not against code, nor in need of being addressed, is objectionable, then the subject isn't rational, but feeling. Trying to argue rationally about how one feels does not compute, as Spock would have said.

I am only stating how I see and feel about the subject, not attacking those who derive some pleasure from being extremely neat.

paul

[cs409]

you said... All the holes in a neat row creates a weak flex point along a wall. Sorta neat isn't so bad. Add a few more series of holes for home runs and the whole run becomes a group of weak points. and all i said was so your saying if all the holes drilled for wire run are in the same location on each stud, you have created a weak flex point across a wall? i didnt say anything about code! but i agree,,,we are sure off the beaten path of this orginal post!

so,,,if its UL listed and approved, use it,,,,if not dont....keep your work clean neat, and if you want to have all your holes lined up,,,,by all means please do LOL...it makes for a much better job,,,,,and sorta neat is much better than sloppy any day...so i will try to always stay between the lines of sorta neat and real neat.....

but i do stick to my plumber remarks :D

[peter d]

do you guys install homeline gear, and cheap residential grade devices?
Yes.

Scott has given you the best answer so far. I'll just repeat what he said, and give you some advice from the "other side" since I used to be one of those residential speed demons: You have to be fast...plain and simple. Pick up the hole hawg and go. Forget about the QOs and CR20s. If a medium-sized spec or semi-custom house takes more than a few days to rough, it is taking too long.

Scott is totally correct, 99% of people can't tell the difference between lined up holes in the studs and a rats nests of romex. All they care about is the chandelier in the foyer or what the trims look like in the recessed cans.

Anyhow, here was a entire house that was wide open again, all the rock off and people trying to pick it apart. To say the least, it was a very sober day for me, and from that day on, I dont pull a foot of wire without thinking about that. You have to get rid of this mentality right away. You can't even be concerned about the "what ifs." I'm not saying abandon craftsmanship and do a messy job. I am saying that you need to do things a lot differently in the residential market if you want to survive. Speed and neatness are not mutually exclusive.

[aissuper]

My father had a house built by a builder and the builder had one of his electrical buddies( i won't call him an electrician)come in and pipe and wire the house. Well, needless to say the installer was the worst that i have ever seen. Most of the pipe looked like he bent it over his knee! I wanted to fire him as soon as i walked into the door, but my father said we will let him cut his own throat, big mistake. The inspector came thru and passed the house with at least 15 code violations in the basement alone. Is there something that i can do to get the so called contractor in trouble, or better yet, his contractors license pulled?

[cs409]

what where these 15 code violations in the basement alone?

and what is an electrician doing with pipe?

[apauling]

cs409: not to prolong this argument, but your original question did not merely ask me if i was asserting that there was a weak point, it implied that it was not true with the inclusion of the reference to modular panels. That is why I responded again. Super neat looks great, (tastes) great, less filling on the pocket book.

I still haven't got an answer from a super neater about compromising a stud or two or... when large knots or other defects, or let braces, or other defects fall on the drill line. I do not think that neat is more important than structure. I was always more worried about turning plates and studs into swiss cheese after all the holes are drilled for large panels and sub panels.

I do not think that there is ONE right way. I think speed and efficiency need to be balanced against safe and secure wiring, the codes being the MINIMUM. I think it's fine that there are a variety of styles of wiring for contractors/homeowners to pick from.

The contractor knows if he is getting his money's worth from his subs, but does the homeowner? Does he know if it's quality or speed that is the defining methodology of the electrical subcontractor. I always added in time for holding the owners hands with their pet ideas for what they wanted. Clarified that some personal choices might be resale oddities. This is not true for slam dunk/bare bones/tract bids.

Architects hardly give a second thought to some custom home electrical plusses. I have seen super custom designs with marginal lighting, as if the architect was afraid that any electrical extra would compromise the budget for their great design. A few minutes with the future owner can add nicely to the pocket book and turn a two day rough into much more.

sorry for the length, paul

[tonyi]

When I encounter a real whopper knot in a piece a carpenter should have thrown into the scrap pile for blocking/headers, I'll scab a sister along the bad spot and glue & deck screw it, then drill as needed. Takes a tad longer, but not all that much, and I know I'm not going to cause a later failure.

Wood quality has indeed slipped in recent years too. Not uncommon to find tight grained quarter sawn spruce 2X4's in 50 year old construction. Got a better shot at sighting Elvis than finding one of those in the lumber yard today :D

[iwire]

Originally posted by tonyi:
When I encounter a real whopper knot in a piece a carpenter should have thrown into the scrap pile for blocking/headers, I'll scab a sister along the bad spot and glue & deck screw it, then drill as needed. Takes a tad longer, but not all that much, and I know I'm not going to cause a later failure.It must be tough to do everyones job. :)

[cs409]

one thing about all the post on this subject. they all make goood sense! some a bit different, some traditional etc.....as with the bad stud,,,sister one next to it... all works well....... one thing that may have been over looked,,,,with all these post, we have thought, and with thought one has concern, and with concern you end up with good work.

in closing for me,,,,,,, do good work, do it to code(and at least try to use good common sense when code doesnt apply ) and almost last,,,use UL listed products,,,it matters not if its homeline or QO...try to go a bit over minimum.....and last,,,,,make sure you collect your money for a job well done

[tonyi]

Originally posted by iwire:
[quote]It must be tough to do everyones job. :) Why would I delay installing something, call a carpenter, wait for them to show up (which might take weeks if its an old work/rehab job) when I can fix the issue myself in 10 minutes? This is the same reason why I own a torch set - to adjust plumbing that's in a particularly inconveniant place or ancient valves leaking all over me while I try to strap something up. I want to get it done, not wait around for someone else.

If you want to get on with a job in a timely manner and not raise costs excessively, you do what you gotta do.

[bphgravity]

Originally posted by tonyi:
...This is the same reason why I own a torch set - to adjust plumbing that's in a particularly inconveniant place or ancient valves leaking all over me while I try to strap something up... I'm not touching other trade materials or equipment, and I would certainly not like it if they adjusted or altered mine. I'm also pretty certain my insurance coverage only covers that work within the scope of my license. Making plumbing adjustments is definitely not. :eek:

[ June 06, 2004, 10:14 PM: Message edited by: bphgravity ]

[apauling]

so the plumber can move some of my wires, i can rearrange the ducting. Anyone who feels confidant, busy, important, can redo the plumbing. Do not tell the inspector. In many places that is another pressure test.

I can see that there might be some situations where the work would not be overstepping, but I could see several very touchy contractors, or subs, or tradesmen.

[jimwalker]

Touching others work is a fast way to a back charge.Your licensed to do electrical only.What may seem minor to you might be major to them.Would we want other trades to maybe move our receptacles over one stud to free an area for whatever they need to put there ? With our rules on spacing we could easily end up with a violation.I do nothing to other trades unless the job super tells me to.If that AC drop is in a place that clearly is for a can or other fixture then yes move it but not till i get the ok first.Was warned once by my boss not to even undo a water line to a dishwasher that was being replaced.Should it leak we would now be without insurance to cover repairs.Yes sometimes it slows the job up.Other than adding wood for our fan or a scab to keep box away from door we do not do framing.

[electricmanscott]

Tonyi you have opened a nasty can of worms. :eek: As for the knot in the wood deal why not just drill in a different spot. :confused:

[iwire]

Originally posted by electricmanscott:
As for the knot in the wood deal why not just drill in a different spot. :confused: I was wondering the same thing? :confused:

[macmikeman]

The Internet cracks me up. In the old days when written coorespondence was by hand or by typewriter only, no way would we be seeing this much bruha over nothing. If you are a speed demon, good for you. If you are nice and super neat (I fall into this crowd, it takes me 7or 8 days alone to wire up a 2800 sq ft house) good for you also.

[Carl Edward Prince]

I agree neat counts ..here comes the but
Even on the best of residential jobs labor is about half the cost .Increase your time so that your holes are within 1/4 inch of each other in hight and someone else will be doing what should have been your work within six months.
On the other hand If the inspector comes in and first thing he sees is crap he will be looking for crap.and we all know when they look hard enough they can find something on any job .
My advice ..be neat not anal ,square of wires nicely ,staple or fasten where ever needed ,use safe but competatative products ,otherwise move to fla and bid here its fast paced work.Every contract specifies work to be completed in a timly manner . thats about 3 days tops on a 3 bed 2 bath ranch CBS constructed home in the 2k sq ft range ussually metal stud .

[kingpb]

A little different perspective:

Electrical Contractors need to spend a little more time marketing your product. Instead of allowing the General Contractor to simply force you to low ball your price, you need to sell them on the idea of how important the electrical package is. In this day and age with electronics, and gadgets needing power, the low ball electrical package doesn't cut it. Using minimum code requirements for number of circuits in a house is plane crap. I got a $400k+ house, and when an iron is plugged in the wall outlet in the bedroom, it dims the f**kin kitchen lights. But of coarse the standard HO panel is max'd out on circuits because it's as small as possible. I can't even add a hot tub without doing a panel change out. The plugs and switches installed are the $0.38 cheap o's instead of a least the Decora style (BTW: Pass and Seymour makes a nicer one) The original fixtures installed are the $2 and $3 one's just to get completion. Their are minimum number of outlets (not always usable locations). I think you get the picture.

OK, the long and short of it, convince the general that you need to have a sit down meeting with the HO to discuss electrical options, i.e lighting choices, switching options, locations for power, future capabilities, phone and cable access, etc. Don't just say it's X dollars per outlet or to add this, it's x dollars, get their input, and then provide an additional lump sum price for the extras. Make them feel like they have a say so, and I guarantee you, they would be willing to pay more for electrical. I bought my house already built so too bad for me, but I would have gladly payed an additional $2000 or more to the electrical contractor to get some of these things up front.

The problem is your letting the General low ball you, and turn your services into a commodity. As an industry, there is a huge shortage of electricians, it would be a good time to start marketing your services and making a profit, instead of cutting each others throats to get the lowest price. Otherwise, why bother, McDonald's is always hiring.

[U. P. Chuck Electric]

convince the general that you need to have a sit down meeting with the HO to discuss electrical options, i.e lighting choices, switching options, locations for power, future capabilities, phone and cable access, etc.

I totaly agree with you, but ... I have to remember this is a business, a job, to make money, fast! Now your trying to get personal with the HO & offer a better product by explaning why, & where the payoff comes into the picture. Remember this new HO is not your friend. Its a paying customer. Big difference.
Same thing, almost, as trying to convince someone not to buy a Hyundai & buy a Honda. ANd what difference does it make to you personally what they drive? No one is putting a gun to there head to by entry level fixtures & devices.
There is a difference in being a friend & being friendly. Smile while you install the crap the builder wants. But remember your not invited to the new HO's kids birtday party.

Do you think the companies manufacturing this crap for Depot & walmart tries to talk the buyers into spending more on better quality?

The crap the builders install is a money stream for me for years after the sale. Please don't take that away from me.

[kingpb]

I totaly agree with you, but ... I have to remember this is a business, a job, to make money, fast! Now your trying to get personal with the HO & offer a better product by explaning why, & where the payoff comes into the picture. Remember this new HO is not your friend. Its a paying customer. Big difference.

But isn't the General doing that exact thing when he convinces the HO to go with an upgrade on carpet, or put in tile in the kitchen , or granite counter tops, fancier appliances, side entrance on garage, finish out part of the basement, etc, etc.

Now comes Joey electrician, doing bare bones NEC, which I adamently say is crap work if it JUST meets Code. Sure, some HO are just glad to have a home, and won't care about anything extra, that's fine, the illegals can stay busy doing the monkey work. But is that what you call being in business? Busting your ass, doing minimum quality and quantity? Hoping you make enough to go to the bar at the end of the week? I've seen plenty of small shop electrician's go out of business because they can't market their services and think to stay in business they have to compete with every lowballer out there.

I honestly think that most HO (and General Contractors) are ignorant about electrical, and don't even know what goodies they could have. Spending a little time on marketing and salesmanship would payoff tenfold to your business.

As far as keeping you going for years later, I always thought one in the hand is worth two in the bush! And how is it going to keep you going later when HD and Lowes pushes DIY anyway? Oops, looks like you just lost your two in the bush!

[iwire]

Gentlemen watch the language and remain on the topic.

[jwelectric]

With the backbiting that has been established in the electrical trade especially the residential side I don’t usually post in this type of thread but this one has hit a nerve. Yes I have read the whole thread.

I have been in the electrical trade for more than 37 years and the residential area for more than 20 of these years. I have done condominiums, townhouses, apartments, duplexes, single family dwellings from 1000 sq. ft. to huge custom homes.

The one thing that I have learned in all of these years is that there is another electrician out there that is going to belittle my work as being cheap and crappy. I have also learned that most of these electricians are only trying to make their work look so much superior to mine in order to justify their price when in reality their work is a lot more dangerous and non code compliant than most.

The NEC is designed to assure that any installation is safe and free from hazards when the bare code minimum is installed in a code compliant installation.

I have never heard any of this backbiting going on in a large apartment complex. Most will have a panel that has been calculated to the load of the unit. The circuits installed will be based on the sections of the NEC that apply to the situation such as only 2 small appliance circuits and 2 general lighting circuits in a 1200 sq. ft. unit.
These units are built on a daily basis and there are no problems with them other than tenant abuse.

Now we move into a single family dwelling and the electrical world seems to change. Anyone that installs a 100 amp panel is a hack. Anyone installing just 2 small appliance circuits is a hack. Putting more than one bedroom on a circuit makes you a hack. Complying with the listing and labeling of a third party testing lab such as UL will make you a hack. Using you hammer to nail up receptacle boxes makes you a hack. This list that makes a hack goes on and on and on and never ends.

Why? Are not the 1200 sq. ft. apartment and the house the same thing? Will they both house people that will be eating and sleeping in the same manner? What makes the electrical system installed in the two units different?

It has been my experience that the only difference is one electrician is trying to make him/her self look so much better than the others. The cold hard truth of the matter is that most electricians in the residential field today have no clue on how to do a service calculation nor how to figure the load on a circuit. Their mentality is that bigger is better. Installing pig tails at each device makes the job safer. Using the screw is a lot safer than using the tested and approved stab-loc on the device. Making sure that all the cables are neat and level will insure that you will pass your inspection.

To each and every one of these electricians I ask how in this world are all of these installations that are still in use today with no more than a 60 amp service and four Edison base fuses installed still working. Shouldn’t someone destroy all of these homes?
I just did a bid for a friend who is going to build four 1150 sq. ft. two bedroom rent houses. These houses will have gas heat and a gas water heater.
I bid a 100 amp panel for each house. The panel will consist of one 30 amp breaker for the AC unit with 3 twenty amp breakers and four 15 amp breakers and I am done. All the devices on the 15 amp circuits will be back stabbed and no cable will be kept straight and level, just drill and pull. The cheapest of devices will be bought and installed.

Now let’s see how many will end up calling this a hack job. I can assure you that the builder was very happy with my bid.
As a side note, out of the five people that he had bid these houses I was the only one that didn’t list a 200 amp service. Why would all that service be needed?

[iwire]

You go Mike. :)

[electricguy61]

[quote]Originally posted by electricmanscott:
Measuring and marking out lines on studs before drilling is a huge waste of time. The only person that will care or notice this is you.


I must disagree. It only takes a few minutes to snap a line on joists, then just keep your heights real close by eye. Snap lines on studs then drill in center by eye.


The ease of pulling wire through nice, neat (straight, equal height) holes will actually save you time, and you get the benefit (and satisfaction) of knowing you did the best job you can do and be proud of your work.


There are times when my brain screams at me to take short cuts (hot crawlspace type attic with my face in old insulation, etc.), but once I finish the job correctly, they are the most rewarding jobs.

I agree whole-heartedly. Marking studs for drill takes maybe 20 minutes on an average size house, but you more then make it up in wiring time.

I've also found that when I do a nice, neat rough-in (or any job for that matter), the inspectors spend less time scrutinizing your work, and are more likely to pass minor problems (or allow you to fix them without a re-inspect). Once you've dealt with an inspector a few times, and he knows the quality of your work, I've had them sign off the job with barely a glance. Quality pays!

[jwelectric]

I agree whole-heartedly. Marking studs for drill takes maybe 20 minutes on an average size house, but you more then make it up in wiring time.

I've also found that when I do a nice, neat rough-in (or any job for that matter), the inspectors spend less time scrutinizing your work, and are more likely to pass minor problems (or allow you to fix them without a re-inspect). Once you've dealt with an inspector a few times, and he knows the quality of your work, I've had them sign off the job with barely a glance. Quality pays!

Please understand that I am not trying to be obnoxious nor rude but the part of your post that I have underlined I do not understand.

As I was very careful to point out in my post above;
The NEC is designed to assure that any installation is safe and free from hazards when the code minimum is installed in a code compliant installation.
Any installation that is code compliant is a safe installation and is free from hazards but you make a statement that leads me to believe that an installation that is pretty don’t need to be code compliant as outlined by the underlined statement.

Are you replacing compliance with beauty?

Is a beautiful noncompliant installation safer than a sloppy compliant installation?

Myself, I have always looked at safety and compliance before I looked at anything else.

[electricguy61]

[color=black]

Please understand that I am not trying to be obnoxious nor rude but the part of your post that I have underlined I do not understand.

As I was very careful to point out in my post above;

Any installation that is code compliant is a safe installation and is free from hazards but you make a statement that leads me to believe that an installation that is pretty don’t need to be code compliant as outlined by the underlined statement.

Are you replacing compliance with beauty?

Is a beautiful noncompliant installation safer than a sloppy compliant installation?

Myself, I have always looked at safety and compliance before I looked at anything else.

I make every effort to insure my work is code compliant. That being said, I will occasionally over fill a box by 1 conductor, or not have a staple within 8" of a box, or fail to see a place where a nail plate is needed or make some other minor mis-step. (nobody's perfect)

The inspector can: A) fail the job or B) overlook the minor infraction or C) allow me to repair it immediately or trust me to do so after he leaves. The neatness of my installation says to him: "this is a contractor that cares about his work".

When he see's a job that looks like meth addicts did the work, he's likely going to give it much more scrutiny, and perhaps be less lenient.

Again, I feel that neatnes pays!

[jwelectric]

I make every effort to insure my work is code compliant. That being said, I will occasionally over fill a box by 1 conductor, or not have a staple within 8" of a box, or fail to see a place where a nail plate is needed or make some other minor mis-step. (nobody's perfect)

The inspector can: A) fail the job or B) overlook the minor infraction or C) allow me to repair it immediately or trust me to do so after he leaves. The neatness of my installation says to him: "this is a contractor that cares about his work".

In your mind where does minor become major?

[j_erickson]

Mike, while I agree almost entirely with what you said, there are some code violations which are inconsequential, IMO. As I've posted before, if I held every inspection to the letter of the code, few installations would pass. Such as one conductor too many in a box, a pipe or cable support too far apart, the receptacle for AC equipment 26' away, counter receptacle 27" from edge of sink. "When does minor become major" is a question that I as an inspector need to answer to myself daily. It is a case by case decision for me.

John

[kingpb]

There is no minor or major, a violation is a violation, is a violation. Any violation should have to be fixed prior to signoff. Whether it is done right then or a call back is required. The only variation being in the case where it is left to the interpretation of the AHJ.

Any code violation is consequential, otherwise why bother having inspections, and why bother having MINIMUM code requirements.

It is no different on the engineering side, all designs are reviewed prior to me signing them. I don't care who did it. We all make mistakes, and the reviewer is another set of eyes to make sure it is correct. This is the same role of the inspector. He is the other set of eyes helping to make sure the job is in compliance. What good is it if "minor' infractions are over looked?

[ceknight]

There is no minor or major, a violation is a violation, is a violation.

The nice thing about absolutism is it saves you from having to think, weigh circumstances, and make decisions.

Now that I know there's no difference at all between leaving out the bonding jumper in a service panel and, say, putting a cable staple 1/16" further from the box than allowed, I'll rest easier. Thanks for that insight. :)

[kingpb]

The nice thing about absolutism is it saves you from having to think, weigh circumstances, and make decisions.

Now that I know there's no difference at all between leaving out the bonding jumper in a service panel and, say, putting a cable staple 1/16" further from the box than allowed, I'll rest easier. Thanks for that insight. :)

I must have missed something in the code, could you please provide me the section number that defines minor and major. Also, any written document that says the inspector has the right to pass inspections where only minor code violations occur. Also, does 1 minor +1 minor = 1 major, or can you have as many minor violations as you want and still pass, as long as there isn't a major violation?

Clarification on this would be great.

[ceknight]

Clarification on this would be great.

Sorry, but you can't clarify distinctions about the relative safety and consequence of code violations with an absolutist. You've already announced your position, and spared yourself the trouble of having to think about those things (as I noted earlier).

Other folks who do have to make judgements calls from time to time can and will see an overwhelming difference in character between having a clamp 1/16" off, and leaving out a bonding jumper at the service panel. We can, as competent members of our linguistic community, refer to one as "minor" and the other as "major" without a CMP having first codified that distinction. :)

[iwire]

I must have missed something in the code, could you please provide me the section number that defines minor and major. Also, any written document that says the inspector has the right to pass inspections where only minor code violations occur.

Do you live on planet earth?

You are certainly entitled to your black and white view of the world but it is not reality. If it is your reality you live in a different world than the rest of us.

[kingpb]

The fact is the NEC does not provide a distinction. Therefore, as stated by many EC's the NEC is the minimum, and any required work that violates the NEC means you have not met minimum.

Let's use your example of comparing NM cable staple being 12-1/16" away from box (minor) and leaving out the bonding jumper from panel (major).

Section 90.5 states the words "shall" and "shall not" are mandatory.
Legal Definition of Mandatory: Peremptory; obligatory; required; that which must be subscribed to or obeyed.

Section 334.30 states: Nonmetallic sheathed cable shall be supported and secured...within 12" of every outlet box, junction box, cabinet, or fitting.

You notice the intentional use of the word shall; it does not say approximately or may be. This is a requirement. The reason for it is inconsequential.

Now, look at 250.24 (B), ...main bonding jumper shall be used to connect the equipment grounding conductor...

I didn't right the code, I am only required to follow it, just like the rest of you. I simply asked for clarification on minor and major, which no one can provide, because we all know it does not exist, as far as the NEC is concerned.

The Code clearly defines what shall be done and shall not be done.
What I hear you all saying is that it shall be done only as long as you feel like it and throw everything else to the wind, because you may consider it only a minor violation. If the inspector misses it, or doesn't care because it's minor, well who cares.

I wonder how this argument will fly next time I'm told by the EC he doesn't think my design meets code, and he wants an extra. I'll just tell him, don't worry it's just a minor violation, those are OK.

[iwire]

Whats your point?

We all know what it says, we also know how it is enforced.

[don_resqcapt19]

It doesn't say 12.00", it says 12" so anything up to 12.5" meets the code rule.

[iwire]

Don never ceases to amaze me with his ability to point out the details.:)

[ceknight]

I didn't right the code, I am only required to follow it, just like the rest of you. I simply asked for clarification on minor and major, which no one can provide, because we all know it does not exist, as far as the NEC is concerned.

One quick note then I'm done with this...

Please note that in my posts I have already acknowledged that both of my examples are code violations. We know they are, and we know what the code says. That's a given, the "shalls" and "shall nots" aren't the issue here.

The point here is that a reasonably knowledgeable, experienced electrician who is able to calculate the consequences of various violations can and will be able to tell when one is more minor than the other. It's part of understanding the language (as in "having a grip on what "more" or "less" means in the context of a concept like "safety""), being able to think critically about consequences, and reacting as best as possible under the circumstances.

No, that doesn't make one violation any more code compliant than the other. Duh. But there are times when you have to do something that isn't 100% code compliant, and inspectors can see that and say it's OK under the circumstances. They can do that precisely because they know some things are less safe or more safe than others, and are willing to weigh that risk because of circumstance.

You can't do that, of course, because you're operating under a philosophic view that does not appeal to consequences and circumstance, only principle. And that's the end of it, as far as you're concerned.

I'll also note in passing that you conflate being able to tell the difference between a minor or major violation with actually performing minor and/or major violations. Just because many of us have a grip on this concept, it doesn't follow that we're actually doing it and trying to get away with it.

[ceknight]

Don never ceases to amaze me with his ability to point out the details.:)


Yep. :)

[kingpb]

When faced with facts, and the result is something you all don't like, you simply sidestep the issue, and pick on the most miniscule detail. We all know there are countless references to the use of shall.

The impression I'm left with is that you guys only want to follow the Code when it suits your whim. It is always enlightening to see that the Code only applies when you want it too, or in this case when it's not a major violation.

Based on your interpretation I wonder why the Code panel felt it was necessary to define this, especially when they didn't define minor and major. Probably becasue there are always those that try and twist the rules, to suit there needs.

For Don, here's my dialog response to his BS comment regarding up to 12.5" is 12":

After all Judge she was 17.6 yrs old, doesn't that mean she's 18? No sir, said the Judge, the law says she shall be at least 18 and you new she wasn't quite there yet! But Judge, she's almost 18, can't we just call that a minor offense and overlook it? I'm sorry sir, say's the Judge, the law is the law you have to go to jail.;)

How's that for black and white! :D

On this issue we will have to agree to disagree :)

[iwire]

When faced with facts, and the result is something you all don't like, you simply sidestep the issue

We are both guilty of that.

You refuse to face the real world. :)

"Theres a real world out there" is a term used by a well respected code instructor and code amendment writer here in MA.

On this issue we will have to agree to disagree :)

And many others as well. :)

[kingpb]

One quick note then I'm done with this...

You can't do that, of course, because you're operating under a philosophic view that does not appeal to consequences and circumstance, only principle. And that's the end of it, as far as you're concerned.

I'll also note in passing that you conflate being able to tell the difference between a minor or major violation with actually performing minor and/or major violations. Just because many of us have a grip on this concept, it doesn't follow that we're actually doing it and trying to get away with it.

#1. I thought you said quick.... :)
#2. Your assumption that this is my philosophy is inaccurate. Simply becasue I took a specific position and posed an argument for a debate, doesn't mean that this is my principle. Man you guys take this serious! You'd think I was talking to my wife.
#3. I'm still waiting for the NEC definitions of minor and major. (yawn, I think I'll be waiting a while):D

[iwire]

#2. Your assumption that this is my philosophy is inaccurate. Simply because I took a specific position and posed an argument for a debate, doesn't mean that this is my principle. Man you guys take this serious!

Yes we do when the posters come across as serious.

IMO you come across as a dead serious ivory tower type.

If that is not the case I apologize but point out that you had never made it clear you where simply debating.

#3. I'm still waiting for the NEC definitions of minor and major. (yawn, I think I'll be waiting a while):D

Waiting for who?

No one insinuated that they could provide that or disputed it does not exist.:)

[kingpb]

Waiting for who?

No one insinuated that they could provide that or disputed it does not exist.:)

Mike Whitt posed this same question in post #42. No one ever expanded on it, so I took it and ran from there.

[iwire]

Mike Whitt posed this same question in post #42. No one ever expanded on it, so I took it and ran from there.

Ahhh I see, yes he did.

I would like the opportunity to inspect his job with a micrometer to ensure he has no minor violations. :D

To all I am sure Mike's installations are beautiful, still IMO no one (including me and my giant head ;)) has a perfect job and violations can always be found.

JMO Mike, not trying to give you a hard time.

[kingpb]

If I was an inspector, all I would ever look for is staple distances that are within 1/32" of 12.000000" (that was for Don) :)

Oops... better get a new tape, this one is only good for accuracy of 1/16th, guess I'll have to approximate.:rolleyes:

[iwire]

(that was for Don) :)

LOL

Yeah Don's a guy that needs all the help he can get......not. :D

[ceknight]

#1. I thought you said quick.... :)

Heehee. You probably don't want to know this, but back in the late 80s I took a graduate seminar on Kant's "Critique of Pure Reason". Kant is (was) probably the most overbearing absolutist on the philosophical landscape, and my response at the end of that semester only took 62 pages. And it still wasn't long enough.

So yeah, a few short paragraphs on a NEC forum is very quick, by my standards. :)


#2. Your assumption that this is my philosophy is inaccurate. Simply becasue I took a specific position and posed an argument for a debate, doesn't mean that this is my principle.

In any debate, when you voice a viewpoint as if it's yours and you try to defend it, it's yours during that debate whether you really believe it or not.

And this is, after all, a debate. :)

#3. I'm still waiting for the NEC definitions of minor and major. (yawn, I think I'll be waiting a while)

I settled that issue in the last inning. What ballpark were you in? :)

[winnie]

A minor code violation is a deviation from the code as written that the average reasonable electrician would conclude is not really significant......until someone dies as a result. At which point everyone will realize that it was in fact it was a major violation. *grin*

The electrical code is written in black and white. It is enforced as though it has grey areas.

Such grey areas are totally reasonable, and the code _could_ be written with such grey areas explicitly in place. The book would be 3x thicker, and would miss the point. Which do you want: a 12" measurement, or a 12" measurement along with allowable tolerance values and statistical requirements for meeting those tolerance values.

Most engineering specifications are written with both the required dimensions and the permitted tolerance on those dimensions. The real world is not exact, and any absolute requirement for being exact _must_ fail. So you must either specify the allowable tolerance, or you have to trust on the spot human judgement for how much tolerance is to be permitted.

Just to pick one example from the code: parallel conductors. Has anyone here ever installed parallel conductors? Are they permitted in the code? How carefully did you make certain that the parallel conductors were _exactly_ of the same length, material and diameter? Code makes no allowances for the impossibility of _exactly_ matching two conductors. A proper analysis of the physics of the situation could give tolerance bounds that were acceptable, answering the question 'what difference in length really makes no significant difference in conductor heating', but this analysis is not in the code; instead a much simpler prohibition against deviation is what the code actually says.

The 12" requirement at least can be reliably met in black and white: 12" is a hard limit, and you aim for a bit less. But exact match between two conductors is _impossible_ to meet. Yet that is how the code is written.

-Jon

[electricguy61]

In your mind where does minor become major?

I would think by my post that would be fairly obvious.

I would love the opportunity to inspect a few of the jobs your company has performed. Do you think I would find any code violations? How about after the job has been sheetrocked? Would it be worth while to tear the job apart to find a pipe strap over 3' from a box? By your logic, the answer would be yes. Hmm.

This is a useless debate, and I'll refrain from any further responses. Some people need to get a life.

[plate]

Just to pick one example from the code: parallel conductors. Has anyone here ever installed parallel conductors? Are they permitted in the code? How carefully did you make certain that the parallel conductors were _exactly_ of the same length, material and diameter?
-Jon

Yes, Yes, They were the same length because they both started at location A and ended at location B and the took the same path. They were the same type of cable and AWG.

[LarryFine]

Section 334.30 states: Nonmetallic sheathed cable shall be supported and secured...within 12" of every outlet box, junction box, cabinet, or fitting.
Yes, but is that from the box to the nearest part of the staple crown, the far edge, or the center line? And for that matter, which part of the box: the clamping device or the outer surface surrounding the KO?

Just kidding, of course, but there are always variables that reach into the realm of rediculousness if one wishes to stretch it that far. Some of you guys are real pips, but I still enjoy the banter, so keep it up.

By the way, Don, even 12.001 exceeds 12. The only place I've seen your halfway tolerance was at a radio station visit we took in the Radio Club in high school. The always announce the time to the nearest minute; 31 seconds after the minute was called the next minute.

[don_resqcapt19]

Larry,
By the way, Don, even 12.001 exceeds 12.
No. 12.001 exceeds 12.000, but it does not exceed 12.
Don

[winnie]

Larry,

No. 12.001 exceeds 12.000, but it does not exceed 12.
Don

Don,

What is the reference in the NEC that describes the above 'significant figures' convention.

I agree that it is a very common convention to use in the sciences, and that any digits to the right of the 'significant digits' are just 'random noise'. But this is just a convention, and other conventions could apply.

The example given above of 17.6 years of age _not_ being 18 years of age is a pretty clear example of this. When 'the law' requires that you be 18 years old, they mean 18 years to the day or more, not 18 years to the half year.

I don't think that there is any description of the tolerances or rounding of length measurements for inch measurements in the NEC. I do recall seeing a reference to some standards document for _SI_ measurements, so one could probably find some guidance there, but if we are looking at SI measurements, then the cable support requirement is 300mm...now is that +-1mm, +-10mm, or +-50mm :)

-Jon

[jwelectric]

I have learned one from this thread and I owe it to all that have posted.

Lesson learned;
It is possible to install a non compliant pretty job and not be a HACK.
It is impossible to install a sloppy compliant job without being a HACK.

With all but a couple the members of this form will trade out beauty for compliance.

The one thing I love about NC is that our code officials are SWORN to enforce the NEC without prejudice or bias and any violation is a violation hack or no hack.

[j_erickson]

Mike, you know I have a lot of respect for you. Are you saying that all of the jobs in NC are performed without any NEC violations?

I'd love to follow you on your inspections for a day to witness that.

[iwire]

The one thing I love about NC is that our code officials are SWORN to enforce the NEC without prejudice or bias and any violation is a violation hack or no hack.

If your trying to say they red tag every violation they see and that they see every violation, than no matter how much respect for you I have I must say that is a load of ..

Cops are judges are also "SWORN' to enforce the law, I guess I should leave it at that.

[jwelectric]

Cops are judges are also "SWORN' to enforce the law, I guess I should leave it at that.

"wink"......

[JohnJ0906]

I just read through this thread, and to comment on the original comment, to be competitive in the resedential field, speed has to be part of it, I feel. This does NOT mean comprimising safety one iota. IMO, the Code is about SAFETY-please see 90.1. Yes, neatness counts, but I can be neat AND fast-not anal neat, but neat. After 16 years, I can drill hole in a straight line without wasting time with a chalk line. If that is what someone wants to do, go for it, just remember TIME=MONEY. Superduper neat is great, don't get me wrong, but can't be profitable doing tract housing. Doing the big customs, on the other hand, it might be just the neat. When I do something like that, I do slow down a bit and be even neater than usual, but the big builders like Ryan, Ryland etc have no intrest in anything except doing it fast and cheap. (can't stand doing thier stuff, personally) But it still needs to be safe.
I think what I am tring to say, is that it MUST be a safe instalation, but a good electrician can be both fast and neat.
BTW, I would NEVER EVER move another trades work I.E. redoing plumbing. If some one moves my work, I WILL backcharge. If you are not an electrician, keep your hands off my work!!!!

[drg]

I have certain amount of suspicion about those who claim they always do neat and code compliant work.

[electricmanscott]

I just read through this thread, and to comment on the original comment, !
It's a long way back to the original question. :)