The Flooring Guys

[hbiss]

Another situation I am just reminded of. What do you do about flooring guys who insist on connecting their floor sander to the service before the main with SO cord and aligator clips? This has been standard practice around here for as long as I can remember.

They come on the job, remove the panel cover, clip onto the lugs with no OCP on their 100 feet of 10/2 SO cord. One time I provided a temporary circuit for them but they refused to use it- "the machine will not run right". I explained that one nick in that cord and its going to burn right back to the panel. I hope their insurance is up to date!

-Hal

[macmikeman]

If you take a picture and send it to the utility co I bet it gets a rapid response.

[bphgravity]

Put a lock on or add a lock kit to prevent the cover from being removed. :(

[jes25]

There is a reason they are flooring guys.

[roger]

Hal, if they were here a call to the AHJ would solve the problem.

I don't know how strong OSHA is in you area but they would probably be interested.

Roger

[goldstar]

You can complain 'til you're blue in the face but they're still going to come out to houses with their "clip-on" machines. It's either clip on or don't do the job. The sad part is that they don't even come prepared to "plug in" their machines. This is standard practice for them. Most homeowners don't have the proper receptacle for them to plug into anyway, so they've just become accustomed to "clipping on". I don't know what we (our industry) can do to correct this ongoing problem. We'll just have to wait until someone gets blown up and have it publicized on the evening news in order for people to realize how dangerous this practice is.

While we're on the subject of unscrupulous behavior, anyone ever run into those siding guys that pull the meter pans off the sides of houses with their claw hammers ? And leave the mounting screws dangling inside, centimeters from the live lugs ?

[jimwalker]

A picture and certified mail to local AHJ.date it with todays newspaper in picture if possible.Notify the super also.Now it is out of your hands with exception of billing the for re inspecting your system that they opened.I think $100 should be enough to get attention of the company president.Might send a copy to the news paper too or local news TV.They are beyond STUPID

[tadavidson]

Hey Goldstar, talking about siding Guys have you ever noticied vinyl siding being applied with THREE INCH nails. These things will reach to the center of a 2x4 and get the romex. I heard of an electrician that found one drove through the back of his panel and into the bus. It was found the next working day when the main was turned back on. That gives a whole new meaning to "Vinyl is FINAL"

[goldstar]

I can't tell you how many times I've found siding nails driven right through the backs of breaker panels that were set in flush inside a garage. It was pure luck that they missed the buss bar. That's about the time the siding guy should go out and buy a lottery ticket !!!

[jimwalker]

At an X company (we have parted) i was often told by my boss to replace that 50 amp 2pole gfci with reg. breaker because the floor guys sander would trip it.He knew this is illegal but wanted to keep the GC happy for more work.
From there side of fence i understand that not only is there a trip problem but no standard receptacle available.Yes they could and should have a sparky make adapters.They are taking a cheap way out.Maybe not so cheap with funerals at $8000.
I would rather let the floor guy electricute himself then be a part of this.AHJ can not do much to stop illegal use of equipment.OSHA could but when they find out the floor guy did this it is because he is dead.On homes with hardwood floor there should be a super and part of his job is safety.But then i recently was on a job where the carpenters openly smoked in plain view of the super.Now there is a real nasty situation because i am forced to wire with a bunch of pot heads around me.And no i can't leave if i want the job.

[iwire]

Originally posted by jimwalker:
i was often told by my boss to replace that 50 amp 2pole gfci with reg. breaker because the floor guys sander would trip it.He knew this is illegal Jim what code rule makes it required?

[jimwalker]

Bob it is required here that our T poles have gfci protection on both the 20 amp 120 recepts and the 50 amp.Now if this floor guy is working in a house that has service on then maybe he is ok.But just where would he plug into?

[iwire]

Jim look at the NEC for GFCI protection on 50 amp outlets.

There are options, make sure the grounding is intact and the floor guy can run his machine from a regular breaker.

Not that it matters his floor machine should run from a GFCI or it has a problem.

[jimwalker]

Bob i agree that if it trips a gfci it needs worked on.The way it is down here we only have T poles on new homes under constuction.Now if i remove a gfci breaker for that floor guy what happens when he leaves ?

[iwire]

Jim as this is different from around here I need to ask what the 50 amp breaker usually feeds?

I do not think I have ever provided a 50 amp GFCI outlet on a construction site.

[jimwalker]

Bob our needs here are growing with subs using so many air tools.Compressors are a biggy and often we need to provide more than 1 120 volt gfci receptacle.
The idea of using hammer and nails is long gone.It was tried a bit south of here to turn service on to houses under construction but the misuse and higher risk has stopped that i believe.Will check on that next time i visit Naples.

[iwire]

Jim all I am asking is what is the 50 amp outlet for?

I am aware that hammers and nails are in the past. :D

The temp services we install run from 200 amp 240 volt single phase up to 1000 amp 480 volt 3 phase.

600 to 800 amps 3 phase 480 is most common, still no 50 amp GFCI protected outlets. :D

[jimwalker]

For as far back as i can remember it has been a standard down here even before the gfci.Was nice before the gfci as we could hot check easy.Other than for a compressor i dought anyone needs it

[jes25]

T pole? Is that temporary plole or something ?

[jimwalker]

yes

[ShockedOneinAZsun]

I guess I am just the odd guy out here. On my jobs, I am in control of the electrical. I have cut more than a few extension cords with illegal ends on them, and if some one hooks something up to my panels that is illegal, I just take it off. If anyone has a problem with that, I just shut the power off until they get the picture.

I have worked jobs in states where the local inspectors hold YOU responsible for ALL electrical safety on the job regardless of the offending trade. I won't lose my license for anyone. You just have got to stand your ground, and get the appropriate authorities to back you up. When I am right, I have NO problem being unpopular on the jobsite. I am not getting paid to be popular. If electricians don't stand up for what is right in their trade, then who will?

[cs409]

if the floor guy or any one other than the electrician/electrical company that installed the T pole is removing the cover panel then you have a major problem.....anyone getting hurt or their family will probably go for legal actions against guess who! the way the floor guy and or his families lawyers will look at it,,,,you didnt provide the proper outlet for his machine? no one there to properly install for them! he was under stress to get the job done or else! so the end result is hurt or dead! somehow it needs a lock......

[hbiss]

To get back on track, this is not necessarily new construction nor a jobsite with temporary power and an EC in charge. There the answer is obvious.

These are existing homes where the homeowner or remodeling contractor is having the floors newly installed or refinished.

Don't know what the answer is. Maybe the Code should require a 30amp/220 volt GFCI protected receptacle next to every service?

-Hal

[cs409]

so your talking about after the fact on remodel and or home owner calling n mr floor man.... sounds to me like mr home owner and mr floor man has the worry in their pockets...mr electrician is in the clear...even if the inspector is involved, by the time the floor guy comes the inspector isnt around! most of the floor guys in my area will open up the box, switch off a 2 pole in service and connect equipment to that breaker,,,at least they r CB protected! some even have their own breaker and will just snap in place if room allows.....again, all this is between mr home owner and mr floor man.......if we fixed all maybe problems, one could not pull in his drive way for all the updates LOL....

[jimwalker]

They could take a safe way out and plug into the dryer outlet.Only 2 possible plugs needed 3 wire and 4 wire and usually easy to get too.They are opening themself to many problems if they open customers panel ,not to mention safety of themself.Now if no 240 available at dryer or range then maybe they have little choice.I am thinking they are too cheap to buy all the adapters they might need.There is another way to get 240 from 120 volt outlets but that is dangerous too.but keeps them from opening panel.

[techgod]

I've seen this done at a high school gym on a 3P 400A Panel with about 200' of SO cord with only yellow caution tape over the door to the room with the panel.

Mark