200 amp service changeout estimating

Dont have much experience estimating and would like some input on how you guys calculate pricing for service change outs. Such as 125 replacing with a 200. This includes no other work just the n]
ew mast,meter base and panel. How much time etc?

[ February 09, 2004, 11:51 AM: Message edited by: joe stewart ]

[noxx]

Residential I usually figure a service at 8-10 hours depending on the structure and grounding. Most can get done in 6-7, but you never know when one will be a bastard and you'll lose a few hours, so bet safe.

Because 125 to 200 is an equipment upgrade and not replacement, you'll need to figure in permit costs as well. I've seen this work go as low as $1400 flat out, but we usually get about twice that.

[scott moran]

noxx where are you from????

[noxx]

Southern California, land of the $400.00 main breaker.

[kiss]

You should base your estimate on PVC, Pipe or Service entrance cable. Also on alluminium or copper, and size of panel 40crkts etc..
Than as suggested figure 10 hrs labor, profit overhead & permit fees.

So 10 hrs seems to be the consensus eh? Seems a bit low but you guys must have more experience than I do on resi. Thanks

[jimwalker]

"So 10 hrs seems to be the consensus eh? Seems a bit low but you guys must have more experience than I do on resi. Thanks "
I am curious as to how long others take.
I can see maybe 1/2 hour travel each way.
Can see removal maybe up to 1 1/2 hours(thats figuring high)
Instaal new can and riser,arrester and 2 rods maybe 1 1/2 hours
New panel 2 hours
total maybe 6 hours plus permit time and 1 hour at supply house.
I do most of mine in about 4 to 5 hours assuming material was delivered and boss picked up permit
Yes it kills a day for one man,but if he needs more than 10 hours he needs to find a new job.
There are exceptions when nothing goes right or fits.
Also times when it goes so easy you might be taking lunch early

[noxx]

I agree, if a panel actually took you 10 hours, something has gone horribly wrong. However, panel changes are about 1 in 5 for something going horribly wrong, heh.

I find a good rule of thumb is that the older the panel you are replacing, the more time you're going to figure into it. If it's even slightly out of date odds are you'll be re-doing the grounding system, which takes some time. As they get older, you run into more odd configurations (often with the meter below) that aren't going to work with a modern all-in-one without some modification time.

It's pretty easy to add up your total material and permit costs, add 15% to that for tax and odds-n-ends, then ask yourself, "what do I need to profit on this job to justify doing it"?. In the end, that's what matters, if it's not worth it to you to beat their low bid, just don't.

[jimwalker]

Part of my old job was estimating fire jobs and service changes.I almost always came in under my time allowance.Figure things going normal and add 2 hours

[jeffrose]

200A Changeover I figure 2 men one day. We do from the point of attachment down, We supply weatherhead,PVC,meter socket,main breaker panel and all breakers and connectors. Also the 2/O copper.And the 4 copper


$3400 typically, subject to adjustment

We are located in Boston MA.

[ February 09, 2004, 08:28 PM: Message edited by: jeffrose ]

[jimwalker]

Does that include coffee and 2 dozen doughnuts.I need a job like that.

[jeffrose]

Coffee and two sausage/egg and cheese on a sesame bagels! :roll:

[jimwalker]

Throw in pizza for lunch and you got a deal

[jeffrose]

Just McDonalds I'm Cheap :D :roll:

[jimwalker]

Deal is off LOL and besides its too dam cold up there :cool:

[kiss]

WOW $3,400 for 200Amp service, and I thought the rates in NYC are high.

[jimwalker]

For $3400 down here you could get a small house wired ,with that 200 amps panel.

[delfa]

Wow $3400. 16 man hours labor = $400 - Material, permits = $1000. $2000 profit! 200 jobs a year = $400,000!! :eek:

[jimwalker]

Only part wrong in your math is the 200 jobs.Try that here and you be lucky to get 2
And you left out McDonalds.
If i was given a helper and 8 hours i would put a bed in that van,lotta nap time
Was that based on 4 day week? probably need friday off after working so hard all week. :D

[ February 11, 2004, 12:58 PM: Message edited by: jimwalker ]

[delfa]

You have to take Friday off to count all your money.
And the material list included lunch at Outback Steakhouse! :eek:

[goldstar]

200A Changeover I figure 2 men one day. We do from the point of attachment down, We supply weatherhead,PVC,meter socket,main breaker panel and all breakers and connectors. Also the 2/O copper.And the 4 copper


$3400 typically, subject to adjustment
You only have about $400.00 in material. Even if you pay your best mechanics $500.00 each that leaves a $2000.00 profit. If the market will bear it - God bless you. I don't know about anyone else but I'm moving to Boston next week !!!

[jimwalker]

Dam it sounds good.I could work just the summer months and spend winter here in FL.
Why am i having trouble beleiving anyone could get that any place?

[iwire]

I live near Boston and many of the guys I work with will charge $2200 to $2600 to do a 200 amp service change as a side job. :D

Sounds great right?

The Cheapest 2 bedroom apartments in the town I live (30 miles out of Boston) run $800 + try to get one in Boston and I have no idea what it would cost. :eek:

[jimwalker]

Bob, just what does your shop charge for 1 good journeyman for an hour ? My math comes up to maybe tops $600 material and can't see one man not doing this alone in 8 hours 10 max.
A helper might speed this up some.So how much for 1 green helper per hour to help him? I gladley will work a side job for $200 a day cash and given your higher cost of living wouldn't a man up there work for $500 cash for the day?

[iwire]

Jim I do not do side work but I do talk to the guys that do it.

For a service change they do work in two's an inside guy and an outside guy.

It could be 6 hours or 10 hours but either way they are getting 2200 to 2600 to change a 100 amp service to a 200 amp service.

15 years ago when I would do this I thought 800 to a 1000 was high. :p

The shop I work for would not touch a single family house service change.

Our temp services are usually 400 amps + at 480. :p

[jeffrose]

posted February 11, 2004 05:47 PM
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
I live near Boston and many of the guys I work with will charge $2200 to $2600 to do a 200 amp service change as a side job.

Sounds great right?

The Cheapest 2 bedroom apartments in the town I live (30 miles out of Boston) run $800 + try to get one in Boston and I have no idea what it would cost.
Quote :roll:



I wish I made as much as you all think I do on changeovers. Lets put things in perspective:

- Single family home in Metro Boston $550,000
and that house needs alot of work.

- Two Family home $700,000-$800,000 also needs work $1,250,000 and move right in.

-One bedroom apartment $1400-$1800 per month

-Good journeyman electrician $37-$48 per hr.

-Health insurance

-workmans comp.

-fuel, trucks, insurance

-sales tax, matching taxes

-office staff

- and I want to shop where the materials only cost $400 why don' :roll: t we triple that.

But I do make a profit.

THANKS

[ February 11, 2004, 07:11 PM: Message edited by: jeffrose ]

[iwire]

Jeff just click on this http://www.mikeholt.com/codeforum/quote_ubb6.gif when you want to quote someones post.

Bob

[nift21]

jeffrose- "and I want to shop where the materials only cost $400 why don' t we triple that."

1200 for material for a 200 amp service??

Here we go ;

Square d homeline panel including some breakers 100
Meter pan, 100
pipe lets say galvanized 40
weatherhead 20
wire 40
bugs 30
hardware screws straps 15
more breakers (dont forget your arc faults ;)100
hub 10
nipple 5
extra for stuff i might have forgot
30

490 for material, thats figuring high, 3400 seems high, id charge 1800 for a normal service, no bends, 1 length of pipe.

[jeffrose]

[quote]Originally posted by iwire:
[b] Jeff just click on this :eek:

[electricmanscott]

I think I shall adjust my prices. Thanks for the heads up Jeff!

[jeffrose]

Now I'll Try:
:roll:

Square D QO-150
meter socket-75
30' sch 80 pvc-20
male adapt-5
weatherhead-25
qty.2 2" PVC LB-40
bugs-60
breakers-200, GFCI AFCI
assorted PVC fittings-40
panel outlet setup-15
all assosiated 1"PVC fittings for ground -75
ground clamps-10
2 rods w/acorns -25
2/O copper THHN-100
#3 copper-75
#6 copper-20
MISC-50

Total- $985 est.

I'd hate to tell you what I charge for a 400A

[ February 13, 2004, 06:54 PM: Message edited by: jeffrose ]

[nift21]

Originally posted by jeffrose:
Now I'll Try:
:roll:

Square D QO-150
meter socket-75
30' sch 80 pvc-20
male adapt-5
weatherhead-25
2, PVC LB-40
bugs-60
breakers-200, GFCI AFCI
assorted PVC fittings-40
panel outlet setup-15
all assosiated 1"PVC fittings for ground -75
ground clamps-10
2 rods w/acorns -25
2/O copper THHN-100
#3 copper-75
#6 copper-20
MISC-50

Total- $985 est.

I'd hate to tell you what I charge for a 400A

[nift21]

60 for bugs, i get em for 5 bucks each
My estimate was for a straight foward service, from meterpan right into panel, no 40 dollar LB

Square D qo panel, nice choice.
50 for extras? From you list seems like you had no extras.

As for the ground rod, i didnt know this job didnt have one already. I joined in this convo late.

even at 1000 for material, 2400 profit?
even if you pay 2 guys 200 per day theres the 200, you make 2 grand , sitting on your fat but, :)

[jeffrose]

Sorry about the :)

[nift21]

so, what do you charge for 400amp?????

lol
I had to

[ February 11, 2004, 09:13 PM: Message edited by: nift21 ]

[jeffrose]

I don't think we need another pricing debate as much fun as that was. Good debate though! LOL ;)

[delfa]

Do your 200 amp meter bases really cost you guys $75 to $100?
I get SquareD bases for $35 with tax. I can ship some up there for you! :D

[paul32]

What are bugs and what does LB mean?

[ronaldrc]

Think I'll just specialize in 2" PVC LB sales for $40.00 a piece. :D

Ronald: ;)

[ February 13, 2004, 05:42 PM: Message edited by: ronaldrc ]

[jimwalker]

Locking up my LB'S,never knowed they was gold plated.LOL

[ronaldrc]

I have notice some of the screws that hold the covers on are brass or I thought they where brass? :eek: Whats the #3 copper for? and what the 1" PVC stuff?

[delfa]

He must be piping the #3 copper through the 1" PVC to the water meter? Almost $200 just for grounding. We use #4 solid, no PVC, the inspectors love it! If it's undisturbed dirt, they will let us use just one ground rod 3' from the foundation. Not many AFCI's needed in an old panel unless you ran new wiring to the bedrooms.

[bclymer]

WOW - you all make me feel good. My Square D QO 200 amp is $1200.00 mast or not. Parts run about $600.00 they pay for the inspection, and about 6-8 hours later I walk away with $600.00 in my pocket. I wish I could get five a week.

[noxx]

$600 in your pocket?

So you don't have a vehicle payment? Gas? Cell phone? Liability insurance? *cough* income tax?

Profit's relative.

[macmikeman]

Say Noxx, how about lightning up a bit. The guy is working, he is not on welfare, I say hurrah for him.

[jimwalker]

If he was a 1 man shop working from home $600 in pocket would be fine $3000 a week and i will gladly buy my gas,cell phone,payment on van and 1 weeks worth of insurance.He still puts over $400 cash in pocket.Taxes come out of all our pockets.

[noxx]

LoL, I didn't say he was on welfare, where the heck did that come from?

I'm just pointing out that "profit" isn't all profit.

-Noxx

[paul32]

Would someone please answer what is an LB? what are bugs?

[iwire]

Originally posted by paul32:
Would someone please answer what is an LB? It could be this guy, known as LB

:D


Or it could be this conduit fitting.

http://www.cantexinc.com/images/Gif/Thumbnails/cblbtn.gif

I have never heard the term "bug" but I will guess they mean this.

http://ebusiness.ilsco.com/webapp/wcs/stores/servlet/ilsco/en_US/images/prodimages/IK.gif

[ February 19, 2004, 02:38 PM: Message edited by: iwire ]

[jeffrose]

Originally posted by noxx:
LoL, I didn't say he was on welfare, where the heck did that come from?

I'm just pointing out that "profit" isn't all profit.

-Noxx Thank You Noxx I could not have said it better myself. :D

iwire:
Hillman Morning Show rocks!

[jro]

Bob (IWIRE), that is hilarious, I almost fell out of my chair, I'll be laughing for weeks, good one.

[jimwalker]

Bob ,why not at least a picture of bug

[hurk27]

Jim wil this do?

http://www.dfwpest.com/LongBeetle.jpg

[jimwalker]

YEP LOL

[noxx]

If that's what y'all mean by "bug", I'm that much happier I use Polaris fittings.

-Noxx

[jimwalker]

love them polaris but lots of $$$$$$
If i am forced to reconnect live drops i demand them, far safer for installer.Any company that values the extra few bucks i don't care to work for.

[stew]

never used polaris fittings . What are they?

[jimwalker]

They are a block with 2 or more lugs with a insulating boot.Ones i have used require allen wrench.Makes a good safe connection with min.contact with you and the live line.Check them out at supply house.Or maybe some one has a picture.

[noxx]

Polaris Fitting

http://www.polarisconnectors.com/isrsm.jpg

They run about $12 each for the size range that hits 2/0, but anyone here who has made live split-bolt connections can tell you that money buys you a LOT of peace-of-mind.

I've done plenty of both, and now I swear by the lug types. With a good T-handle insulated allen your contact with any live parts is greatly minimized.

[noxx]

Also, while a little less common, Burndy makes a similar connector with clear insulation, so you can visually ensure the wire is in the lug, for those so inclined.

[paul32]

Not to beat a dead horse, but what makes that fitting an "LB" that Bob posted? I noticed on some web site what to me looks the same but not called LB. What does LB stand for?

Looks like bugs isn't a common term so I won't worry about it.

Thanks for the replies.

[ryan_618]

From what I can tell, the "L" describes the shape of the fitting (such as a plumbing "ell"), and the "B" is for "back", as in the direction the conduit leaves the fitting. There are also LR's and LL's, which I would assume are "right" and "left". I might be wrong on this, but it sure makes sense to me :)

[roger]

Ryan is correct.

Go here for good info. (http://www.crouse-hinds.com/crousehinds/newproducts/relatedinfo/Form_5_Sell_Sheet.pdf)

Roger

[silverspark]

200 amp upgrade
Im in northern Indiana
I'm getting around $1,200. if all goes well.
Takes 2 men around 4 hrs. on the job.
Parts and truck time vary.
Permits extra.

Hope this helps

SILVERSPARK

[hurk27]

By Silverspark: 200 amp upgrade
Im in northern Indiana
I'm getting around $1,200. if all goes well.
Takes 2 men around 4 hrs. on the job.
Parts and truck time vary.
Permits extra. I'm not sure just where you are up here I'm in Portage but there are a few AHJ's around here like in Lake County. That make you bring up the whole house. We start about $1800.00 and go up from there depending upon what has to be done to satsify the AHJ.

[silverspark]

Thanks

I'm out here between South Bend & Fort Wayne.

This county doesn't have any inspections at all.
Most guys don't know what a license is. We are
licensed most places that require it. The price
I stated was foe just a service upgrade.
Silverspark

[hurk27]

Thanks I was just wondering. Haven't seen to many on here from my part of the state.

[greglusus]

OK Boyz here what greg charges for 200Amp

Electrical Service $1,400
Grounf from panel to water meter $160
Deomlish andrewiring exist.el.service $350
Install circuit breaker in Panel $4.50 each
YOU DO THE MATH

[PhantomJourneyman]

Don't forget your electrical permit fees if any. :D

Hey cool!!! I found the smiley faces!!! :eek:

I've seen them SLB, SLR, and SLL as in "short".

[springtownspark]

MR ducks
MR not
SMR C DM wangs
LIB MR DUCKS

I'll take your word on that

[thunder15j]

In a quick review of the posts on this topic of 200 amp service upgrade, I didn't spot any comments on whether the installs were for surface or for recessed/semiflush installs. The different installs would obviously affect costs. Also in my travels I have noticed that in some parts of the country, builders will allow the installation of an extremely ugly surface mounted electrical system on an otherwise nice looking home. Go figure....

[clate]

speakeing of flush vs. surface mount
what are everyones opinions on those.

personally and obviously flush looks better ,
but try adding to it and then surface has its advantages. just wondering what do you do to get both???

[bphgravity]

I've worked with a builder that frames out a surface mounted panel with drywall leaving a small access panel above the enclosure for future access. They even add molding and trim to clean it up nicely. :)

[jes25]

In michigan 90%+ of houses are on a basement. The panels are always surface on the block .

Only certain AHJ's allow flush mounting of services. Mine does.

[spratco]

I'm in Georgia and typically, I charge between $12 to $14 per amp, which depends a lot on what the obstacles look to be.

[bert47]

Originally posted by paul32:
Not to beat a dead horse, but what makes that fitting an "LB" that Bob posted? I noticed on some web site what to me looks the same but not called LB. What does LB stand for?

Looks like bugs isn't a common term so I won't worry about it.

Thanks for the replies. I was taught early on to identify "condulets" by holding them with the covered opening toward you, the inline opening up and depending on the direction of the "L" opening you called it accordingly. Toward the back, "LB"; toward the right, "LR"; the left, "LL". Tee's are either "T" or "TB". A "C" is a straight through fittingl like a little pull box. Bugs (split bolt connectors) are called "Kerneys" here in central Texas, after one of the original manufacturers.

[ May 24, 2004, 08:56 AM: Message edited by: bert47 ]

[satnad]

Originally posted by joe stewart:
So 10 hrs seems to be the consensus eh? Seems a bit low but you guys must have more experience than I do on resi. Thanks I am new at this forum - very interesting topics and knowledgable people.
A 100amp usually takes me min. 12 hrs. if there are only 10 poles (circuit breakers) all with emt
no mast, no 2ft rock foundation , and good access to ground electrode (water pipe before the meter or street side of the meter.) If all circuits are identified properly and not just `lights & plugs it could take 2 hrs on 22 circuirts to be identified. Removing existing equipment could take over one hour.
I have noticed that man hours estimated on this forum at various discussions are very low. I wonder why I haven`t be able to successfully get a job wiring new homes for over 20 years. I hear that elec. contractors are wiring homes for $18/ per item (less supplying light fixtures and not including the service.)

[jeffrose]

Here is a good one for you all, I'm changing a service in Wellesley Mass. there they have a town utility provider with a lot of rules. here is a breakdown of costs.

Service change $3200

Cut street, dig trench, install pipe $3600 (BY OTHERS)

pull in service wires $1450 (utility comp.)

Total:$8250 For a 200A upgrade :eek:

[chrsb]

Wow, I wish I could get what some of you guys are getting for a 200 Amp service change. Here in Michigan we charge around 750-900 for a typical service change. We get our meters free, no PVC just SE going in the house. Some have mast, some are just SE for the riser. Usually 2 guys(union) four hours.

[jes25]

750-900 for a 100a I wont do a 200a for under 950 try to get 1000, You are right though its a michigan thing the econmy sucks up here. :mad: