Bath Gfi location

[mtn_elec]

Is it any code violation to have the GFI on the wall right behind the sink? Over the back splash of course.

[don_resqcapt19]

no

[mtn_elec]

when I say behind the sink I mean right in the middle of the sink. It is still good?

[iwire]

Originally posted by mtn_elec:
when I say behind the sink I mean right in the middle of the sink. It is still good? I would not say it is good but it is not an NEC violation.

[jimwalker]

It's ok to let it be there but won't qualify for the required adjacent one.

[iwire]

Originally posted by jimwalker:
It's ok to let it be there but won't qualify for the required adjacent one. How do figure that?

[jimwalker]

Simple Bob.Read what it says.Adjacent to the basin and within 3 feet

[iwire]

Originally posted by jimwalker:
Simple Bob.Read what it says.Adjacent to the basin and within 3 feet The first sentence of 210.52(D) states

210.52(D) Bathrooms. In dwelling units, at least one wall receptacle outlet shall be installed in bathrooms within 900 mm (3 ft) of the outside edge of each basin.So we know the outlet must be withing 3' of the outside edge of the sink. I can make that measurement in any direction

The second sentence of 210.52(D) states

The receptacle outlet shall be located on a wall or partition that is adjacent to the basin or basin countertop. So by your interpretation would you say the receptacle outlet can not be located above the basin countertop but must be beside the basin countertop?

That will be a problem with wide countertop. :D

[ December 03, 2005, 07:37 AM: Message edited by: iwire ]

[ty]

I think that's a simple mis-read.

It is the wall that must be adjacent.

If it said that the receptacle shall be adjacent, I would have to agree with Jim, because to me, adjacent would be to the side and not behind.

[iwire]

Originally posted by ty:
I think that's a simple mis-read.I agree, that is why it is important to read code sections carefully and not work from memory. :)

[jimwalker]

I think the intent was to not have a cord going behind the sink but at same time not so far that it was not usefull.Perhaps they figure your using an electric shaver .

[charlie b]

Originally posted by ty: I think that's a simple mis-read.
It is the wall that must be adjacent. No, it is you who is guilty of misreading the sentence.

In the phrase, “at least one wall receptacle outlet, “ the object is “outlet.” Although the word “receptacle” can be used as a noun, in this phrase it is an adjective that modifies the noun “outlet.” Although the word “wall” can be used as a noun, in this phrase it is an adjective that also modifies the noun “outlet.”

It is the outlet that has to be within three feet of the outside edge. I see no rule that says it can’t be measured in any direction.

[mtn_elec]

it seems this is getting very interesting.The reason I ask is a rough in this master bath with double sink and GC gave me close location. Now I came to do the finish and the 2 GFI are right in the midle of the sinks. This is ever happened to you guys before?

[j_erickson]

210.52(D) states that the receptacle must be within 3 feet of the outside edge of the basin, and must be located on a wall that is adjacent to the basin or the basin countertop. So the situation which you describe is code compliant. And no, I have not run into this before. Fortunately.

[jimwalker]

As to the problem ,you are as much to blame as the customer is.There needed to be a print to scale for you to do this job.If the location can not be defined then it would be better to leave the wire behind the drywall and use a cutin box at trim.
How would you describe the wall behind a sink ?
How would you describe the wall on the left side or right side of the sink ?
And finally how would you describe the wall in front of the sink ?
If we are going to call the wall behind it adjacent then the one in front is also adjacent.Perhaps they needed to say from the side of the sink.So using this reasoning i will put the outlet on the wall behind me as i stand facing the sink. ;)

[George Stolz]

Originally posted by jimwalker:
As to the problem ,you are as much to blame as the customer is.Indeed, it's a painful lesson sometimes but true. You must insist on details at the rough or you will pay for it at the trim.

If we are going to call the wall behind it adjacent then the one in front is also adjacent.Perhaps they needed to say from the side of the sink.So using this reasoning i will put the outlet on the wall behind me as i stand facing the sink.No, look at the definition of adjacent (http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&ie=ISO-8859-1&q=define%3Aadjacent). If the wall across the room isn't connected to the basin in question, then it's not adjacent. ;)

[jimwalker]

I did."near or close to but not necessarily touching; "lands adjacent to the mountains"; "New York and adjacent cities"

I would call the wall behind the sink BEHIND or TO THE REAR,adjacent is not a good choice but i must agree that while it is behind the sink it also is adjacent.Guess this will be a call the inspector will need to make.I did get a red tag once over this same problem.Was not my fault that the builder did not follow his own print.

[iwire]

Originally posted by jimwalker:
I would call the wall behind the sink BEHIND or TO THE REAR,adjacent is not a good choice but i must agree that while it is behind the sink it also is adjacent.I would not call it adjacent but lets say it is, that means to put the outlet on that wall the wall must be within 36" of the sink edge and if it was this close would putting that outlet on it really be a bad idea?

It would keep the cord away from the sink. :D

[roger]

The following interpretation would allow it to be within 3'of the sink where ever that 3' may be; behind, below, or beside.

http://www.mikeholt.com/onlinetraining/page_images/1003537600_2.gif

Roger

[ December 04, 2005, 11:37 AM: Message edited by: roger ]

[jimwalker]

Roger,i agree now from seeing others views.Only remaining issue is was this the intent ? Seems they would have not worded it this way if it was.Seems anymore that being an electrician requires skills in english and a law degree ;)

[electricmanscott]

Originally posted by jimwalker:
As to the problem ,you are as much to blame as the customer is.There needed to be a print to scale for you to do this job.Jim are you for real? You only do jobs with scaled prints? Yeah right. :roll:
The GC gave him a location. The location was not a good one. If the gc wants it changed the gc pays.

[roger]

Jim, Seems anymore that being an electrician requires skills in english and I agree, but this doesn't stop here.

Reading a writing skills are paramount in todays world IMO .

This is one reason education is so important.

It's sad when we hire young people who can barely read, write, and can not do simple math in their heads.

Roger

[jimwalker]

One thing i have found in residential is that the customer very often on the rough can not pin point a location on a rough to within even a foot but comes final they get it down to 1/16 of an inch.
Just finished one of them kind of homes.On rough she was not sure if she wanted only 1 fixture or 2 in the kids bath 2 sinks vanity. I suggested i leave the wire with enough slack behind the drywall.So far sounds great.Comes trim time they still have no vanity top.GC says no problem just line them up with the plumbers drain.And that worked out too untill the plumber got redtagged.Seems there is a code that says they must be at least 15 inches center from the wall.Guess what ,they were only 12,made them tear out the exspinsive top and redo.Now the problem ,my lights are nolonger centered,Try moving your cut in box 3 inches and leave no hole showing.I did it but it was a pain.

[George Stolz]

I guess the point is, make a big stink. Get something in writing, and if you can't, make the stink big enough that it can still be smelled on the trim.

I have the good fortune to work with cabinet layouts, so I have dimensions in inches when I rough my tract homes. I still stub out instead of installing a box on the rough, to accomodate some change.

Always make a stink. :)

[mtn_elec]

Well, I had the inspector taken a look at this problem. He stopped by the house to inspect the new service and I mentioned to him the problem. He said it was alright as far the plumber do not install a big faucet that could be in the way of the GFI. Thank you guys for all your references.