Picking up an abandoned job

[jjhoward]

Hello Esteemed colleagues,
I am considering completing a rehab job on a multi family that someone started and walked away from. First walkthrough uncovered some obvious non conforming items and some worse dumb things.I have heard/seen some seasoned pros say NEVER work on a job that's half-baked. Is this type of situation so bad that a diligent/thorough quote can't make this a profitable job?

[laidman]

To take the time to do a complete exam of the job could take as long as the job. I would only take it T & M

[tx2step]

The first really big question is - why did the first guy walk away from the job?

Don't take what the General Contractor tells you as the whole truth. I'd try to talk to the first guy and see why he says that he bailed out -- he might have had a good reason (like no pay or slow pay, or having "mission creep" problems over his scope of work).

Randy

[jjhoward]

Here is an example of something "odd" that the previous contractor installed at this multi-family. This is a sub panel for one of the 3 apts. This sub panel is fed from a breaker panel in the basement.
http://community.webshots.com/photo/292642966/292644094qYHPbr

[jjhoward]

I think the T&M is the way to go. I've spoken to the AHJ that flagged this job in Oct/04 and fined the owner $250! They simple skipped the rough wiring inspection..so I need to open walls to allow a rough wiring inspection. Not sure what I will find there.

[jjhoward]

I think the first guy was asked to leave.

[jjhoward]

To see this sub panel see:
http://community.webshots.com/photo/292642966/292644094qYHPbr

[charlie b]

Do you have the option of a two-step firm price process? What I mean is you give a firm price for a thorough inspection (including opening walls). Once you know what is there, you give a complete list of the tasks that are needed, and give a firm price to do those tasks.

[izak]

heh... thats funny
:)

[highkvoltage]

jjh. To answer your question "What wrong with this picture?"
1.Neutral and ground are bonded.
2.#15 Romex on a 20 Amp CB
3.Jumper across the main.
4.Panel feed with #15(?) Romex
5.Panel is a mess!!!!!!!

[celtic]

From that one simple picture - the previous guy was a complete hack!
Jumping out the phases...NFG
No Ground in panel...NFG
Generally sloppy panel cut-in...NFG
Neutral bonded (to what on line side?)...NFG
etc.

To me, taking over this job will be a virtual "pandora's box" of code violations. IMO, there are 2 disctinct "two-steps" here:
-The suggestion to do a "two-step" estimate is the ONLY way I would even consider proceeding with this project - but the second step would be T&M pricing.
-The other "two-step" involves putting one foot in front of the other... :)


(PS. #15 in romex?, maybe #14...how you can tell from this photo eludes me)

[jjhoward]

Great minds think alike :D
I suggested essentially the same thing to the GC: T&M to work through whatever problems are found, then fixed price to complete. He wants only fixed price, telling me to go HIGH. Not sure what I will do.

[jimwalker]

T and M or just walk away.No way i would touch it on a fixed price that he would ever agree to pay.Ask him if he is willing to remove all the drywall before you bid :mad:

[petersonra]

This is the kind of thing I would not want anything to do with in the first place. I don't like T&M jobs to begin with - way too much hassle and paper shuffling.

Even so, T&M jobs can be profitable. You just have to remember that the time spent shuffling papers gets added into the "T" part of the equation. And don't be shy about it. Your time is your most valuable possession. Don't let someone take it for nothing.

If you have to ask, it's properly better to just pass.

[jimwalker]

We spend 4 1/2 hours today,9 man hours pulling 4 short runs (maybe 30 feet) of 3 x #12 in a poor pipe job.This was a job that should have been 1 hour for 1 man.Shows just what kind of mess you might pick up for another electrician ,or should i say wanta be electrician.Your bid would need to be at least 4 times higher than if you had started the job.Just walk from this unless you really are hungry.

[George Stolz]

I don't understand how someone this clueless would take on a multifamily in the first place? Have you had a chance to talk to the other trades, ask about what happened?

From the look of that panel (which shouldn't be there in the first place?) you are going to end up gutting the building and start over. Call me crazy.

Why didn't the GC notice the inspection snafu before drywall? He's not pressed for time, is he?

This whole deal blows my mind.

[jjhoward]

I am bidding to the GC a price that I derived based on opening all the walls/ceilings and running all new circuits. I am planning to use a sub panel in each apt. I am submitting my bid to a GC, who is working for a "consultant" who is working for the owner. This is real estate players trying to fix-em up and sell them for profit. I guess this building must have been gotten for a song for there to still be profit potential to do this rehab thing twice and still make money...I let you all know if this flies or crashes in flames!

[jimwalker]

Hope you can afford this job.You might very well come out winning,then again you might see some real flames from the kind of work this guy did.We have all at one time or another had jobs we wish we could just start over.Do wish you luck if you get the job.Aim it very high.

[oliver100]

About that panel - it is a mess indeed.

But in a single phase fed panel what is wrong to energize all breakers with the that single phase?

[willyj]

Don't walk from this one,RUN. Ask yourself these questions why did they hire this hack in the first place and why did they let him go and why do they want me to do the job.
I think you will find this a lose lose situation

[jjhoward]

Thank you all for the input. I love this forum. I pushed up my price to the GC since he wouldn't have T&M. I allowed 2 hrs/room to prep them for pulling wire (removing drywall and drilling). Then I tallied up the cost for each opening and added $s for "special" items - 6/3 runs for sub panels, updates at the service panels in the basement + some adders for materials + adders for "administration" (Change of contractor etc)
I will track how we actually perform vs. my allowances and share our joy or pain with you. :cool:

[George Stolz]

Originally posted by oliver100:
But in a single phase fed panel what is wrong to energize all breakers with the that single phase? I don't believe it actually is against code (too lazy to actually look right now), but seeing 5 #14 circuits fed from a panel that's fed from a #12 or #14, whether properly protected for not, represent as serious design problem. They'll have to run down to the basement everytime they watch TV and make toast while the furnace is on. :D

[jjhoward]

The sub panels are feed from a SP30 amp breaker with #10/2 wire. Feeding 4 15amp + 1 20 amp breakers from this line may work some of the time, but I won't put my name on it. I think the fact that there are two wires under that one lug may be a problem. Of course the neutral and gnds tied together at the sub is wrong.

[gndrod]

How many units and what does the meter center look like. The MLO sub should be a four wire to balance out the BCs and have a code compliant grounding system at the service disconnect.
Gut it at T & M or walk.

rbj, Seattle

[jimwalker]

I would want a clause in contract that i don't get back charged for any drywall damage.

[coppertreeelectric]

I saw the pic 2hrs ago and I am still laughing.

Well done....