100 Arrested at Wal-Mart Construction Site

[petersonra]

http://seattlepi.nwsource.com/national/1110AP_Wal_Mart_Illegal_Workers.html

[electricmanscott]

Fantastic. :)

[iwire]

Wal-Mart spokesman Marty Heires said the company would cooperate fully with federal authorities.

"We have written contracts with these subcontractors requiring that they follow all applicable local, state and federal employment laws," he said in a statement. Typical contract boilerplate that is often ignored.

[petersonra]

while i don't really care what they paid the illegals (and sadly that seems to be the main reason anybody cared) it continues to distress me that we have no control over our southern border.

[ November 18, 2005, 05:16 PM: Message edited by: petersonra ]

[jimwalker]

It's about time they went after them.Hope they visit Tampa soon and take some of our (illegal aliens) away. :D :D :D :D :D

Moderator's Note: Edited to remove a discourteous term.

[ November 18, 2005, 06:17 PM: Message edited by: charlie b ]

[charlie b]

Let's be careful with this. If this thread turns to "ethnic group bashing," it will be closed.

[jwelectric]

I am with you on this one Charlie.
If we all look back we will see that we are all alien to this country.
When America was founded the doors was opened for all to come with out the permission of my forefathers.
Only the Native American has any right to complain.

[apauling]

nobody is "native" here, all immigrated, just some a long time ago. on the other hand, i am native to Minnesota, having been born there.

paul :)

[macmikeman]

I would add that "Native Hawaiians" have also got a reason to grumble.

[stud696981]

Best arrest I have seen this year!!! These contractors and companies that hire them are hurting our economy and legitimate business like us!

One a side note, If I was a Border Patrol Agent I would be shutting down construction jobs quicker then a building inspector could for no permit. This kind of stuff really ticks me off!

[electricmanscott]

Originally posted by jwelectric:

If we all look back we will see that we are all alien to this country.
Ugh.
Not me I was born right here in the good ole US of A!
I am a Native American. Not the Indian kind. Oh can you not say that anymore? :roll:

Lockdown on the borders is the ONLY answer.
Thank your lucky stars these were just guys looking for work and not terrorists. This time.

[justin]

Borders, Language, Culture!!!!

[JROD]

As the son of an immigrant who served his adoptive country in the military, this subject is near and dear to me. There are many issues concerning illegal and legal immigrants that transcend lower wages, terrorism (even though it is a big one), broken laws, etc. The problem with the folks coming over today, especially illegal immigrants thumbing their noses at our laws, is that they don’t want to preserve and defend the American way of life and ideals that made this country great! Without patriotism, love of country and wanting to preserve our American values, there will be no future America as we know it.

José

[justin]

I repeat - Borders, Language, Culture!!!

[celtic]

Many cultures were "bashed" when they first got off the boat ...including the Irish (of which I am obviously one).

I have no problem with immigrants - LEGAL immigrants. My own mother is a legal immigrant, my father's parents were legals, as are my wife's parents.

The illegals are the problem...and their employers more so. The employers who hire the illegals should join them on the bus/boat BACK to wherever it is they came from.

[ November 20, 2005, 12:13 PM: Message edited by: celtic ]

[big john]

My experience with illegals is very limited. What I have seen is a bunch of people coming into this country because it is "the land of opertunity." Because they are illegal and labor laws don't apply to them, they often work very hard for very low wages. I'd be extremely surprised if the eight dollars an hour quoted here is the average pay an illegal recieves.

Often these folks are doing the brute labor or otherwise un-attractive jobs that many people in this country don't want. Very often they do these jobs without the least bit of safety training or equipment. I've heard of cases where asbestos abatement was done after-hours by groups of illegals wearing nothing more than dust masks.

I've never had my job or the jobs of anyone I know threatened by the influx of illegal immigrants. How would it be any different if you had the same number of people joining our workforce who were naturalized citizens?

Am I the only one who thinks that the illegals are largly the ones losing in this propositon?

Why is there so much animosity?

-John

[tony_psuee]

Although this incident has gathered a great deal of attention it is disappointing that it is doing that. This bust was most likely nothing more than a PR stunt. Go to any cattle or chicken processing plant and you could easily arrest almost as many illegals as this Wal-Mart site. I agree with Bob about the border security. However, of the following two things smuggled over the border which is worse, an illegal working for low wages in a job that most likely no one else wants, or the kids at the high school buying Mexican heroin for $5-10 during study hall? My point is when the issue becomes more than a PR stunt something will happen. Fine the hell out of the contractors or companies that hire them, make it unprofitable.

Tony

[bradleyelectric]

Originally posted by jwelectric:
I am with you on this one Charlie.
If we all look back we will see that we are all alien to this country.
When America was founded the doors was opened for all to come with out the permission of my forefathers.
Only the Native American has any right to complain. Actually, I believe there has been a long standing quota of how many people from different countries can come in. Recently people from Europe have had a problem getting in due to updated quotas due supposedly to terror threats, while people from other areas can come at will pretty much due to they will perform manual labor for cheap.

[ November 26, 2005, 06:33 PM: Message edited by: bradleyelectric ]

[bphgravity]

The problem isn't the illegal aliens, it's the contractors that hire them. We had a contractor down here in SW Florida that was hiring hispanic males for daily work. On a few occasions, these workers became seriously injured on the jobsite. The contractor would drop the man off at the hospital and drive away. They finally caught the company after one worker fell to his death from a roof and the contractor tried to cover it up and deny any responsibility.

If a builder or contractor does not take responsibility for checking the subs/workers they employ, they should be held responsible. The bottom line is that if you make the risk of employing illegals so high by assessing fines and suspending licenses, noone will hire them and the illegals will either be forced to move away or become legal.

On a side note. My first ancestors came over from Ireland in the late 1600's. One group were Catholic the other were Anglican. At the time, Catholics could not hold office or practice law in the colony of Maryland. When one of the relatives died, one of the men on the Catholic side and one on Anglican side became the equal heirs of the estate. The Catholic man held a high office in the Maryland House of Assembly and was able to get all the Penal Laws against Catholics enacted which barred all Catholics from owning land or collecting debt. When his Catholic cousin argued against the law, the Anglican cousing had him put in jail.

Fortunately, the next generation were not so closed minded and more concerned with equal rights. The son of the Catholic man went on to be the only Catholic signer of the Declaration of Independence. :cool:

[jimwalker]

A visit to Florida's construction sites will exsplain everything.Most jobs like roofing,drywall hanging and finishing,block laying,framing are now being done by the illegals and green card holders.Often there will be 10 illegals using the same card.
Why are we mad ? Maybe because they are driving wages so low that we can't live on it.
Does very little good to deport them.They wait a day and head back.Should they get picked up on a DUI and no insurance or driver license they get deported not locked up for a year.I can see now that i might as well just stayed in Naples as nothing has changed by moving to Tampa.
Stoping them at the border is almost impossable.Perhaps we need to send them a clear message.Come here illegally and we sit you in a prison camp for 20 years and force them to support there cost.When they start taking your jobs up north maybe you will understand.

[George Stolz]

Originally posted by big john:
Often these folks are doing the brute labor or otherwise un-attractive jobs that many people in this country don't want.I used to think so, now I'm not so sure.

To (mis-)quote Nick DePaulo from Tough Crowd, "So, what, do you think they have dirty toilets in Duluth? You think they've got no garbage men in Fargo? C'mon..."

Really, when you bring basic economics back into the picture, the illegals willing to do undesirable work are screwing up the curve. It's supply and demand. When the job is undesirable, the employer looking for a worker to do the job has to increase the wage to make the job desirable again.

Let's face it, any one of us, regardless of race, creed or origin would hop into a septic tank with the appropriate gear for $800 bucks an hour. Well, maybe most of us. Heck, I'd do it. But I betcha an illegal would feel the same way for much less than the honest worth of the job.

In construction, the illegals (and those who knowlingly seek and employ them) screw up the system, driving down wages for certain jobs while the rest of us are still at the same level. It's only a matter of time before this has a widespread affect on the industry as a whole, IMO. It's only a matter of time before GC's starting seeking and discovering EC's exploiting the predicament for gain.

If a company decides one day to stop paying overtime, or hire illegals at half pay, and have employees unwilling to speak up about it, that company will suddenly have a economic advantage over it's competitors. It's just a matter of time before that advantage that company enjoys chokes out the competition. It may be in a niche, but that niche will only grow. We're in an industry where a bad season can kill a business, and the low bid seems to be king. What long-term effects will these factors have? No good ones that I can see.

Oh and another thing: In our trade, depending on the locale, we have laws in place to license electrical workers. This has two benefits. The most evident use of these laws is to ensure the safety of the public, in that licensed individuals do all the work. An unintended benefit of these laws is that they provide traction against the economic peril that shady economic practices engender. Inspectors who care about the long-term health of our industry need to card.

I have had a couple conversations with inspectors who say, "Yeah, I card. I know some who don't. It's just such a hassle when we catch somebody." It's unfortunate that even in areas where the laws are in place, inspectors just get headaches if they bother. Wish I had a solution for that: I've never been carded.

With that, I'll get off my stump. :D

[jimwalker]

And in areas like mine the law does not even require any license for the workers.All thats needed is 1 master and he can have hundreds of workers under him.On top of that he needs never even see the job.I am allm for licensing if it was inforced.

[charlie b]

In periodic newsletters issued by the Washington Department of Labor and Industries, I have seen pages and pages of citations for working without a license or working without the proper ratio of journeymen to apprentices. I surmise that someone out there is "carding." I think the fines start at $500, and go up from there. Is this not a common thing to see happening in other area? Am I being naive in inferring that this is a reasonable deterrent to working without a license?

[petersonra]

You are making an assumption that any unlicensed electrical work is inherently unsafe. That is clearly not true.

It is quite possible, for instance, to use relatively unskilled people to install boxes where needed, and to run romex to them from the panelboards with very little training required.

Installing services, grounds, and even connecting up the devices does require a fair amount of skill, and should be done by those who have the skill to do so.

I remain unconvinced that installing an outlet requires the personal supervision of a master electrician.

The fact that thousands of homes are built using these type of lesser skilled workers with no history of electrical problems later on seems to bear this out.

[charlie b]

Originally posted by petersonra:I remain unconvinced that installing an outlet requires the personal supervision of a master electrician. An outlet? I agree. Two hundred outlets, a labyrinth of wires, and a host of under-trained and under-supervised workers? Perhaps that is a different matter.
Originally posted by petersonra: The fact that thousands of homes are built using these type of lesser skilled workers with no history of electrical problems later on seems to bear this out. May I be allowed to offer a correction to, ". . . with no documented history of electrical problems. . ."? I think that if any one homeowner had a problem with an outlet, that person would deal with the problem, and the rest of the world would not hear the news. I also think that hundreds of homeowners could have individual problems with outlets, and not one of them would share the news with the others.

I just have a general problem with anyone making a statement along the lines of, "It's never been a problem before," in any context or situation. I always want to jump in and push the "How do you know that" button.

[petersonra]

Fair enough. But also fair enough to ask how do you know it is a problem?

If this type of construction technique was causing fires in droves, or even substantial rework, I would tend to believe it would not be tolerated by the companies building these homes. Just too costly to go back and repair these type of problems and the bad press would be even worse.

I doubt a single problem with a single outlet is commonly reported, regardless of who did the original work. But large numbers of problems tend to become known.

[ November 28, 2005, 12:35 PM: Message edited by: petersonra ]

[speedystevie]

If this type of construction technique was causing fires in droves, or even substantial rework, I would tend to believe it would not be tolerated by the companies building these homes. Just too costly to go back and repair these type of problems and the bad press would be even worse.

I doubt a single problem with a single outlet is commonly reported, regardless of who did the original work. But large numbers of problems tend to become known. This issue is not about the press or costs. I feel that one death due to unsupervised installation is more important then any cost margin.
If the "Master Electrician" is responsible for the work being done then he/she should be checking all of the work. I am a licensed master electrician and check all work done by others in my company or have someone I trust check their work e.g. my sons until I know I can trust them myself. Electric is not a place for cheap non-English speaking labor, BOTTOM LINE...

[bradleyelectric]

Originally posted by speedystevie:
[quote] Electric is not a place for cheap non-English speaking labor, BOTTOM LINE... I was looking at the specs for a custom home community being done by a national home builder of close to a thousand homes near our nations capital. In these specs it clarified that each trade needed at least person on site that spoke legible English and acted like a tradesman. Who do you think they are looking to build these homes? There was no requirement that there be a licensed master, journeyman, or apprentice on the project. Just somebody that could speak English and had a clue. As a contractor what do you think I have to do to get this project? Say all you want, but those are the facts.

[bphgravity]

The state of Florida very recently tried to add mandatory journeyman requirements to the state legislation. However it was determined after review of the bill that the cost associated with implementing, maintaining and enforcing the rule and the cost to builders and contractors would exceed that which is reasonable. The insurance industry seemed to indicate that the general liability would not be reduced if the law was enacted. Long story short, it was removed from the bill.

I now highly doubt there will ever be state wide journeyman licensing in the state of Florida.

[jimwalker]

Willing to bet the real objectors were the builders and EC.They know what would happen if starting jan 1st it required 1 card holding journeyman for every helper.Can you say STOP BUILDING.There are very few here with a card.Not much point in having one.Pay will not change and its just an extra cost to the employee.Bet some money changed hands to defeat this bill. :mad: :mad: :mad:

[jeff43222]

Hmmm ... mandatory journeyman laws seem to work just fine up here. We require one journeyman (or master) for every two helpers. This is a statewide requirement.

When I sat for the exams, the room was full each time, and they give the exams every week. Clearly there is an incentive to get licensed.

[jimwalker]

No good reason Florida could not do it.Cost of test is paid by the electrician.I think most would gladly pay if it leads to higher pay.As to enforcing this thats easy.The fines can easily pay the cost of some help to go seek them out.Simple job that does not even require an electrician.They are just the excuse they are using.As far as finding men with a license that will be tricky.Betting only 10 % can pass first time.Give them maybe 6 months or a year warning that it will be needed.It's time Florida wakes up.This is just a political thing, the ones not wanting it are the builders and EC and of course the guys that can't pass it.

[bradleyelectric]

Originally posted by jimwalker:
the ones not wanting it are the builders and EC and of course the guys that can't pass it. You've got to be kidding right? The builders and EC not wanting this? The prices of houses keep going up and to do this the price would just go up more to cover the cost associated with the additional maybe $150 per house that this will cost in additional labor. The biggest Lobby against this is the group that does not have the ability to pass this, and it is a strong enough Lobby to make me have to push 1 everytime I call someones customer service.

[George Stolz]

Originally posted by jimwalker:
This is just a political thing, the ones not wanting it are the builders and EC and of course the guys that can't pass it. That struck a curious chord.

Is it reasonable to speculate that builders in Florida have more clout due to the hurricanes?

Just throwing that out there.

[paul32]

Originally posted by bradleyelectric:
it is a strong enough Lobby to make me have to push 1 everytime I call someones customer service. Would you mind explaining this? :confused:

[lucky1974]

As in push 1 for english,2 for espanol.Sad to see that i went to Lowes the other day and the welome sign at the door was in 6-7 different languages.

[Jhr]

Sad to see that i went to Lowes the other day and the welome sign at the door was in 6-7 different languages. :( :p Its called MONEY, DINERO, cater to the masses sell, sell, sell. So lets boycott Walmart, the Mexican, Chinese, Italian, restuarant etc. and any establishment that we suspect hires illegal workers, don't drive on the freeways, don't buy the houses that are wired by illegal workers, don't buy from the supply houses that sell to the EC or GC that hires illegal workers :p .

[ December 02, 2005, 08:20 PM: Message edited by: Jhr ]

[bradleyelectric]

when you cater to different groups in so far as listing things in different languages, than it keeps people from integrating to our customs and ways, including laws. If that fact bothers you and you have to get smart about it, that is ok.

[jimwalker]

I think we are talking about a lot more than an extra $150 per house.The typical guys doing track homes here are getting $8 to maybe $12 an hour and at 12 they better be dam good,fast,and run a crew.If licensing comes into action we are talking shortage of men with cards .Wages will easily go to $20 an hour.Will also put many of the green helpers out looking for other jobs.I too get upset that i must push 1.