New EC in Northern NJ, needs help!

[mtn_elec]

Has any EC in New Jersey would give me an idea what is the basic hr/rate residential,commercial specifically in northern NJ? I'm on Essex County.It would be really aprecciated

[jjhoward]

Hello Mtn,
I have been charging $150/hr for me and 1 technician for residential work. I also offer customer's the option of a fixed price. Usually, my fixed price quotes come in a little low. For large renovation jobs where the majority of the work is "new work" the quote is fixed price based on the take off of the drawings supplied. Have not done any commercial work, looking at my first commercial job this month with someone who does nothing but commercial. I don't have any commercial pricing info.

[jjhoward]

BTW Mnt,
I am in Morris cnty but have done work in Essex (W. Orange, Orange, Livingston.)

[mtn_elec]

Thanks Joe for sharing this. I was talking with another EC from the area and told me he charges 40 per outlet and this is Belleville, Newark City area, does it sound reasonable to you with all the overhead in this area?

[jjhoward]

$40/outlet for new construction is a pretty rich number. :) There are many mini mansions going up Essex. I would love to get involved with a good GC building those, $40/outlet would be the high end that I would charge. $40/opening, recessed lights, exhaust fans would be in a different category.

[mtn_elec]

I don't want to sound like I want your price sheet, but I am complete lost in what is the average prices in this area. I consider myself a good electrician (like we all do, right?)but when it comes to figure out prices I am still kind of lost.I know is material + time + part of your overhead etc, but If you have an idea what others are charging then you try to work around those numbers.

[speedypetey]

I know this thread is old but I thought I'd chime in.
I am surprised that $40 is high for your area. Northern Jersey is considered higher end, in my area, the Hudson Valley, $35 - $40 per hole is the going rate. Some guys are upwards of $50.
Recessed cans get anywhere from $75-$125.

[jjhoward]

Hey Speedy,
Thanks for the chime.
Maybe I am too cheap.

[speedypetey]

Yeah, don't sell yourself short.
I'd rather have just enough work at the right price than too much work at too low a price.

[jjhoward]

Much of my work is renovation type work. I find it very difficult to estimate. The "new" sections of the house are pretty straight forward, but without fail there is always some complication due to the old meeting the new. I am getting better at estmating, writing a better contract with good payment terms. But my rate is inching up on fixed price jobs. Smaller jobs (1/2 day to a full day to complete) I do for T&M at $150/hr for me and 1 tech. The T&M is OK. My fixed priced renovation quotes have to improve.

[speedypetey]

See, now I find that odd that $40 a hole is high to you. For T&M $150 is way high in my area, for even TWO mechanics!
The average residential T&M rate is in the $45-50 range for a mechanic and ~$30 for a helper.

[jjhoward]

Wow, how can an electrician go to someones home for an hour and only charge $40-$50? I charge $100/hr for just me + $50 for the tech. Can I ask what is your rate?

[jjhoward]

Auto mechanics get $80-$100/hr around here.

[speedypetey]

Well, I will say most do charge an initial service call rate.
I do $75 for the first hour and $48 per there after. That is just for me.

I do think the auto mechanic rate is a decent barometer of an area. I believe they are getting in the $65-$75 range here.

[jjhoward]

I guess you know what your expenses are.
$48/hr seems like a great value for an electrician to be working in my house. Maybe too good. Do you do a lot of T&M work?

[mtn_elec]

What exactly is condidered a T&M job Joe? (As I told you I need a lot of help)

[BruceH]

Time and material.

[mtn_elec]

So I guess, you bill after doing the work for time & materials, including travel time.right?

[jjhoward]

Hi Mnt,
I often do T&M but I rarely add a "trip charge". If the work site is beyond my idea of sane (~40 miles or more 1 way)I will tell the customer there is a nominal trip charge, usually $25.

[jimwalker]

When i do T and M your job starts when i answer the cell phone and ends after i write bill and collect the funds.What part of my time inbetween would you like me to work for free ?

[coppertreeelectric]

My T&M Starts when we begin to travel to the jobsite and ends when we leave.
So then the clock starts for the second job when we leave the first one.

My guys are paid from when they leave the shop in the morning untill they leave there last job in the afternoon.

[jimwalker]

"My guys are paid from when they leave the shop in the morning untill they leave there last job in the afternoon."
Do they return your truck to the shop on there time ?

[coppertreeelectric]

Yes they do. But they are also paid for lunch and have paid health, so returning the truck to the shop when they are DONE WORKING has never been an issue. If the customer is done paying, so am I.

[coppertreeelectric]

Also, if a contract job is done by 2pm and I figured 8 hours, I give them the rest of the day off, paid.

[jimwalker]

That all well and good and you sound like a fair guy,however you might want to check your labor laws.Here in Florida you must pay them till that truck is returned and they are free to go where ever they want.It is a serious violation here and they could go back on you for 2 years for every man you did this to.Your not required to pay there lunch time,and that likely balances it out but be carefull.A disgruntled x employee could turn you in and a few hours a week for 2 years is a lot of $$$$$$.

[bradleyelectric]

Originally posted by jimwalker:
they are free to go where ever they want. I find that a little difficult to swallow. That would mean that they could stop and do some grocery shopping on the way back and you'd have to pay them.

[mtn_elec]

Well, if that is the case you could make them call you when the job is done and you check the time when they get back to the shop.You would know if they went shopping on your time or not.

[mkoloj]

Originally posted by mtn_elec:
Well, if that is the case you could make them call you when the job is done and you check the time when they get back to the shop.You would know if they went shopping on your time or not. But how would you know that they didn't first finish their shopping and then called you after on their way to the shop?

[tx2step]

I think what he is saying is:
that he has to pay them until they return the truck to the shop -- at which point they are then free to go whereever they want, since they are then on their own time and are no longer on his payroll.

Until they return the truck to the shop, they aren't free to go wherever they want.

I've seen this same interpretation and enforcement before under the federal labor laws by the US Department of Labor.

The decisions that I have seen from the DOL say that if they are riding in your truck, then they are on your payroll, both driving to and from the office. (However, their time does stop when they are on break or sitting in a burger joint getting lunch. I think you'd be better off not paying them for a half-hour lunch and 2 - 15 minute breaks, but do pay them for their return drive to your shop.)

We got into this argument with the DOL over letting foremen take their trucks home with them -- and we lost. We had to pay them from the time they left their home, until they returned home. This was a few years ago, so there may be some new laws or decisions that change it, but we had to pay their back wages at that time.

In a couple of cases (on new construction), there was a crew that met at the foreman's house and they all rode to the jobsite together in our truck. We had to pay all of that crew's back wages, too, from the foreman's house until they returned to the foreman's house. The DOL said that payroll started and ended at the foreman's house, since that was where they got on and off our truck.

After that, we tried to always make a deal with the foreman for him to use his own truck, and we paid him a monthly "truck allowance". He would use his own truck to make an occasional run to the supply house, if it was unavoidable.

The rest of the work crew had to meet at the jobsite, and it was up to them how they got there. Everyone's time began and ended on the jobsite, at regular starting and quiting times.

Going through a DOL audit can be pretty rough.

It all started with one electrician who kept a daily log, and after a little over a year, filed a complaint with the DOL saying that he wasn't being paid for all of his hours and overtime. We paid him, and we paid everyone else, too. Several of our electricians argued with the DOL that it wasn't right, they didn't want the money, and it would end up costing them a free ride to the jobsite -- but the DOL still directed us to pay all of them.

Be sure you understand all of the current labor laws, since they can bite you. Check with an experienced labor law attorney if you think that you might have much exposure.

Also, be very careful if you pay any of your people as Contract Labor . That is a whole other can of worms that can cost you -- big time. You run the very real risk of having to pay any income and other taxes that they don't pay themselves -- even back taxes. This can easily run into 5 figures for just one man for just one year. Multiply that by however many men and years that you are doing it. Go over the laws with an experienced labor law attorney if you are thinking about doing this -- if you just do what seems right, you will almost certainly mess up and eventually pay for it.

[ April 13, 2005, 01:52 AM: Message edited by: tx2step ]