Bath/bedroom remodel

[flick]

Situation: Homeowner is converting a living room to a master bedroom. The bedroom will have a shower/toilet room in one corner. The basin will actually be installed in the open in the bedroom (not surrounded by walls).

As I see it, the GFCI for the basin will need to be on an AFCI protected circuit because it is actually in the bedroom area. The bathroom will not have a basin, and is separated with a pocket door from the bedroom area. It will not need AFCI protection. However, will I need to install a receptacle outlet in the bathroom if there is no basin?

Also, I'd like opinions on putting the lighting circuits in a bathroom on a GFCI protected circuit. Other than with shower/bath area cans that specify GFCI protection, I don't put lights on GFCI, although I often do run the lights off of the same circuit as the GFCI receptacle. This is a convenience when doing old work and is permitted in the code. Any thoughts would be appreciated.

Sorry if this has been covered before. Thanks for the replies.

John

[jimwalker]

It's not a bathroom if no sink.So no outlet.The vanity is not a bathroom either but the gfci as well as afci are both required.gfci because its at the sink and afci because its a bedroom.Dang never thought about this but you could build a house with no bathroom :D

[flick]

Hah! I forgot the definition of a bathroom! Sometimes the obvious smacks me in the face, but usually someone else has to smack me!

Thanks Jim for reminding me of the requirements of a bathroom.

[larryl]

allthough no receptacle is required arnt you gonna put one in anyway, for convience?
just a thought,,

[iwire]

Originally posted by jimwalker:
The vanity is not a bathroom either but the gfci as well as afci are both required.gfci because its at the sink and afci because its a bedroom. Jim can you tell us what code section requires a GFCI near a sink in a bedroom?

[flick]

Yes, I'm going to install a receptacle at the basin, GFCI protected and on the AFCI circuit. However, I probably won't put one in the shower room unless the customer requests it. The only thing I can think of that they would want to plug in there would be a heater, and I'm installing a heater/vent/light unit anyway.

John

[jeff43222]

I couldn't find anything in the code that requires GFCI protection for receptacles near a sink in a bedroom.

Seems to me that it should be required, though. By the same token, you could install receptacles all around the walls in the shower, but since there's no basin, it's not a bathroom, so they wouldn't require GFCI protection, either.

[jimwalker]

Bob ,how about 210.8a7
I know it says wet bars but either we call this a bathroom sink or a wet bar.Just what would you like to call this sink ?

[jeff43222]

I saw that, too, but the code unfortunately doesn't define "wet bar" anywhere.

[jimwalker]

NEC goofed again.They use words and give no defination.This leaves it open to a dictionary.That in turn would say its for mixing drinks.So now we have a vanity that will be used in same way as it would if it was in a bathroom with no gfci required.Perhaps we should indeed scrap the nec and start over.

[jbwhite]

can AFI's and GFCI's be wired in series?

just wondering if there will be any nuesnce tripping?

[jimwalker]

Many motels have the same room setup that this is.Tub/shower and a toilet in a room with a door.Just outside of it is a vanity and usually an ice bucket.If they remove the ice bucket then its not a wetbar ?

[jimwalker]

Yes they can .Why is it that nec didn't think things out very clearly.They took the time to tell us what a bathroom was but fell short on how to handle this situation.What will the inspector want here ? I believe he will call it a wetbar.

[jbwhite]

I started a thread a while back about doing the minimum, and this is a perfict example of what I was trying to say. The nec is the minimum. In a case like this, I would work hard to upsell the job for saftey reasons. Or I would have just put it in the bid and not looked back.

[iwire]

Originally posted by jbwhite:
I started a thread a while back about doing the minimum, and this is a perfict example of what I was trying to say. The nec is the minimum. In a case like this, I would work hard to upsell the job for safety reasons. Or I would have just put it in the bid and not looked back. Right and doing so separates you from a host of other contractors that do the minimum. :)

I still fail to see the point you are trying to make. Do you feel the NEC should require more than what is needed for safety? :)


Sorry for the rant. :roll:

Bob

[jbwhite]

No, I dont thinkg the code should be more strict. I dont think it will ever keep up with industry changes.

I think that it is an electricians job to evaluate the situation based on experience. I believe that advising the customer is enough. Then let them decide what they want to buy.

As for the inspector issue. I agree. Like a policeman, or any other authority who enforces law, it is not his job to make the law, but to enforce it as written.

[macmikeman]

Now what if the tub and toilet and sink was in the corner of the bedroom, no partition walls separating anything. Then the whole room would no longer need to be on an ark fault breaker. The reason I say this is because of the NEC definition of bathrooms, it has all the requirements and so therefore is not a bedroom now, but instead would be a bathroom, hence no ark fault. All the receptacles would need gfi protection, and since it has a bed it also is a sleeping quarters so per NFPA would also need a smoke detector. Seems to me like the code is actually a pretty good document, and if it was re-written from scratch, then there will always be some bozo like me to come up with ridiculous reverse ways to interpret what is mostly common sense

[jimwalker]

So what do we call a sink in a bedroom ?

[jbwhite]

when i build my dream home, i am going to have four offices and no bedrooms. I know this will make it not a dwelling unit. but i wont need arc faults.

[jimwalker]

Just be carefull that the offices have no closets ;) Cause then they become bedrooms.

[jbwhite]

Originally posted by jimwalker:
Just be carefull that the offices have no closets ;) Cause then they become bedrooms. i missed that thread. that would make many of the office buildings where I have worked, have alot of bedrooms.

[roger]

That would mean the corridor at my office is a bedroom because it has a closet at one end. :D

Roger

[jeff43222]

The NEC also has no definition of "bedroom." Interesting, since a bedroom is required to have AFCI protection.

I guess it's up to the AHJ to decide what constitutes a bedroom.

[pierre]

I looked in the building code, and they do not have a definition of Bedroom either...???
The IEEE dictionary does not either. I find that hard to believe. That could be a proposal in the making!!!!

[pierre]

The definition of bathroom in the NEC & Building Code is not a room, but an area... that would make the bathroom area of the open bedroom just that, with the bedroom still being the bedroom....whatever a bedroom really is ;)

[jbwhite]

Originally posted by pierre:
I looked in the building code, and they do not have a definition of Bedroom either...???
The IEEE dictionary does not either. I find that hard to believe. That could be a proposal in the making!!!! hey.. ... dont propose that untill after i build my house with 4 offices... :)

[pierre]

JB
we will propose them as bedroom/offices... :)

[macmikeman]

I still think you should put smokes in them there "offices" when you build your new house.

[jwelectric]

Bathroom. An area including a basin with one or more of the following: a toilet, a tub, or a shower.

I do believe the key to this bathroom deal is found in the definition of the word and the use of the term "area" instead of room.

A closet does not make a bedroom if it did then there would be a lot of foyers and halls where people would be sleeping.

edited for spwlling

[ December 12, 2005, 07:44 AM: Message edited by: jwelectric ]

[charlie b]

Originally posted by jimwalker: So what do we call a sink in a bedroom ? We call it a "sink." Then we discover that there are no requirements in the NEC concerning this "sink." Finally, we talk with the owner to see if the owner wants, and is willing to pay for, something above and beyond the code minimums.

[haskindm]

As Pierre and JWElectric have stated the NEC Definition of a bathroom is an AREA, not a room. The fact is that the area that contains a toilet, shower or tub, and a sink is a bathroom. A receptacle is required "adjacent" to the bathroom sink (I believe there is also something about 3'). The code requires that receptacles in "bathrooms" be GFCI protected. Since the receptacle adjacent to the sink would also be in the bedroom (whatever that is, but lets assume it is a room in which people sleep - not counting my big chair in the "living room'!) Arc Fault protection is also required. Yes, Arc Fault and GFCI can be installed on the same circuit. Since there is no sink in the room with the toilet and shower the NEC does not require that a receptacle be installed in this area, however remember that the NEC is not a design document, and that compliance with the NEC does not guarantee that an installation will be "adequate, convenient. etc.". It seems that the installation of a receptacle in this room would be a good thing, but not an NEC requirement. And yes, technically you could have a 20' X 20' room with only a tub and toilet in it and not install any other receptacles. I think that is why the AHJ is given such far-reaching authority, to make determinations that prevent contractors and home-owners from taking things to a ridiculous extreme.

[jimwalker]

So what seperates one AREA from another ?

[jbwhite]

Originally posted by jimwalker:
So what seperates one AREA from another ? The smell

[charlie b]

I was hoping that nobody would take us into the realm of bathroom humor. Please - no more of that.

[macmikeman]

I think that is why the AHJ is given such far-reaching authority, to make determinations that prevent contractors and home-owners from taking things to a ridiculous extreme. That works both ways. I have been given some pretty ridiculous things to do by field inspectors to keep them satisfied that were either not in the code, or worse yet - in opposition to what the code book says to do.