do you have to be in the electrical industry to ask a qu

[michael_k]

I am a home owner that has a very messy situation with old wiring and am having trouble finding an electrician that will quote or want to do the job on an old house. I have some quick questions if that is allowable.

thank you

[charlie b]

You may ask whether something is or is not a code violation. You may ask whether something can be left as-is, or whether it must (as in code requirement) or should (as in safety issue) be repaired. You may ask what code article applies to a given situation. You may ask whether we think a cost estimate is within a reasonable and customary price range. If you want to get in touch with an electrical contractor who is a member of this Forum and who works in this area, you may tell us the city in which you live and invite interested Forum members to send you a Private Message with their contact phone number.

Finally, you are free to do a word search of the entire Forum, in an effort to learn what you can about your situation or your problem areas.

What you may not ask is for us to help you figure out how to do the work yourself.

Does that help you understand our Forum rules?

[charlie b]

Let me add that a complete rewiring of an old house will not be cheap. I am renting an old house, and am beginning negotiations for buying it. I will want a complete rewiring job, and am mentally prepared for a certain price range. It may prove to cost more than that, but my mind is already resigned to expect the job to cost at least that much.

Tell you what. Go ahead and ask your questions. If they are beyond what we are allowed to answer, we will simply tell you that. But we will give you whatever help we are permitted to give.

[michael_k]

thank you for stating what questions you allow. I did search, but couldn't find the answer to my questions.

We purchased a 95 year old house earlier this year that we had inspected by a Norman, OK NACHI licensed inspector. The previous owner stated that the house had been rewired and a licensed electrician hooked it up to the 200 amp panel.

In having a plumber repair a leak, we found the house has a mix match of wiring. The plumber got shocked by a hanging K&T wire. There is K&T, thick black wires, white wires, etc. I'm sorry I am not knowledgable in wiring.

We had one quote of $19K and that the entire house needed rewiring to replace the K&T, but he didn't want the job. A second electrician said, "to feel the knob and tube to see if it is brittle, and gave some tips on running a new wire, but he also didn't want the job.

It is a 2 story, 3,000 sq ft home with crawl space and attic access. To make matters worse, the house has wood shakes under asphalt shingles that the inspector also missed, and 2 layers of batt insulation in the attic, which the local inspector says HAS to be covering K&T with K&T in the house.

We are going to file a formal complaint with the state's licensing office for home inspectors, so that he won't be as careless in the future, but we are left high and dry as far as the expense. His contract said it would only cover any problems found in 90 days. We found the problem in 95 days.

Because we can't find an electrician that wants to touch the house, we inquired at the local building inspectors office to see if we could run the new wire since we have the ceiling exposed where the wiring is and have a licensed electrician hook it to the box, the way the old owner did. Everyone in town from Lowes, to lawyers says you can run your own wiring. We found out that is untrue.

The inspector said we cannot do any wiring ourselves, the house has to be entirely updated with new yellow, 12g wire/all new 20 amp breakers, and that the insulation in the attic is unsafe. He was very argumentative, accusing me of living at a house further down the street that is having work done on it without a permit, so the conversation got very confusing. I asked what work a homeowner can do on their home in general and he said they had a list, but he couldn't find it. I left his office very confused and frightened.

Another electrician is coming out next week, and hopefully he will consider the job. The inspector said the only way we can run any wires ourselves is if we want to do some sweat equity work WITH the licensed electrician present.

Questions:

- Would you as an electrician allow a home owner to help you run wires? The house has lath/plaster/paneling walls. It is not a historic home and has been updated through the years. I have no problem with cutting holes wherever they need to, to do their job. What we can't do is dismantle the entire house, because of the cost to put it back together. Also I am 71 years old, so I can only do so much, but could hire a helper for the things I can't help the electrician with, if that will help us be able to afford to do the work.

-is it true that all 14g wires have to be replaced with yellow 12g? The inspector kept stressing that even 2 yr old wiring from the previous owner would have to be replaced. But he did say, because we are living here and have a power meter he can't force us to update anything. It's if we replace that wire in the ceiling that went to a ceiling fixture (with no box) we will have to update the entire house wiring.

We are overwhelmed that our inspector missed obvious flaws in the wiring and roof. We are low income retirees and were counting on the professional inspectors competence, and the sellers disclosure of "good" upgraded wiring, in our decision to purchase this house. Now it has become a nightmare.

As much as we want to bail and put the house back on the market, we don't want to pass along this mess to a future buyer. There is no way we would sell this house and not disclose the problems as the previous seller did. We would not wish that on our worst enemy.

I'd rather not state the town I live in, but our town does follow these standards:

International Building Code
ICC Electrical Code—Administrative Provisions
International Energy Conservation Code
International Existing Building Code
International Fuel Gas Code
International Mechanical Code
International Plumbing Code
International Property Maintenance Code
International Residential Code

We want to do everything legally and safely and need to know what to expect as far as cost, to see if we can even get this done, or be forced to sell at a loss. I do know we can't live here if the wiring is unsafe.

There is a panel below the 200 amp service panel that our inspector entirely missed. There are 3 breakers there with only 2 wires coming into the box (ungrounded). The garage is also ungrounded, which he missed. The box was in plain view, which really upsets us.

Thank you for any encouragment you can provide. This town is full of "handymen" that WILL do wiring, plumbing, you name it. We have turned them all down (actually they run when we mention permit!) and want to hire a licensed electrician, if we can find one that will work on old houses.

I give you guys alot of credit for your expertise, continued education and licensing, and that you are willing to work in such a hazardous profession.

[ December 09, 2005, 04:39 PM: Message edited by: michael_k ]

[BruceH]

I don't know if this is a violation of forum rules here but if you post an approximate location, there maybe a few licensed contractors on this site that will PM you and possibly be interested in the work you need. Obviously, this is not a DIY project and you are wise turning away the "Handymen". The 12 gauge wire the inspector mentioned is likely a local code as it is not a requirement of the National Electrical Code.

[michael_k]

thank you Bruce. I live in the OKC, OK area. The 2 codes that the county inspector said they follow are:

2003 International Electrical Code (chapters 35-40)

He said I could look them up at the library. I don't see why I'd want to if I can't do the work. He was very confusing. And the guy kind of had a hitler complex, and was very unnerving.

And:

NEC 2002 Electrical Code

ps- I have the sheet in front of me. It also has permissive codes that include:

2003 International Property Maintenance Code

2003 International Existing Building Code.

You are right, it is not something that we feel competent to do safely, but would be able to help. It may make the difference between being able to afford to hire an electrician, or living with the unsafe wiring until we can sell.

[ December 01, 2005, 03:34 PM: Message edited by: michael_k ]

[charlie b]

Originally posted by michael_k: . . . 2 layers of batt insulation in the attic, which the local inspector says HAS to be covering K&T with K&T in the house. He is making an assumption that has no basis in fact. It is possible , but it is not certain.
Originally posted by michael_k: - Would you as an electrician allow a home owner to help you run wires? I am an engineer, not an electrician, so I can't give you a real answer. But my guess is that no electrician would accept that arrangement, and you would not want to do that anyway. It would cost you more. Although your labor would be less expensive (i.e., free) than the most junior electrical trainee, you would slow down the electrician who is running the job.

A dentist once told me that he shouldn't charge extra for patients who want him to use Novocain injections before drilling and filling. Rather, he said he should charge more for those who do not want him to use Novocain. His reasoning is that without the pain reducing drug, the patients would wiggle and squirm in the chair, and it would take him twice as long to get the job done.
Originally posted by michael_k: -is it true that all 14g wires have to be replaced with yellow 12g? The inspector kept stressing that even 2 yr old wiring from the previous owner would have to be replaced. That is certainly not true. A house can have #14 wires, so long as the circuit breakers that feed those wires are 15 amp breakers, and not 20 amp breakers.
Originally posted by michael_k: It's if we replace that wire in the ceiling that went to a ceiling fixture (with no box) we will have to update the entire house wiring. That would be an abuse of authority on his part. A general rule is that if you touch something during a repair or upgrade project, then you must bring that thing up to current codes. But if you only change the wiring in the ceiling, that will not force you to update wires in the basement.

[infinity]

Just a few thoughts after reading your post:

1) If money is a major issue, some of the knob and tube wiring may still be usable. It is still legal and in thousands of homes. More importantly I would concern myself with the condition of it.

2) #14 wire is permitted for a large portion of your homes' wiring. Obviously your inspector has made so many mistakes I wouldn't listen to very much that he has said.

3) As a contractor I would decline any physical involvement from a customer. I would however allow them to perform the non-electrical portion of the installation. Removing walls, ceilings, patching, painting etc. You may find someone to allow you to work with them but I find it highly unlikely.

4) If I were in your shoes I would opt for another inspection, this time by a reputable, licensed electrical contractor. I would pay him for his inspection and to write you a detailed written report. Also I would make no mention of having him possibly bid on the work. This will give you a more unbiased inspection and opinion of what you have.

5) In general for the Electrical Contractor these jobs can be more trouble than they're worth since there could be many hidden things that can not be accurately reflected in an estimate. Unless you were to rewire the home in its entirety I would expect that you will incur some unseen extra work orders. If that is understood than you EC can give you a more accurate estimate otherwise he may need to add in X number of dollars for potential problems. Good Luck.


Trevor

[michael_k]

thank you Charlie. That dentist analogy makes alot of sense. It takes alot of novacaine to knock me out enough to drill, so I know the hell the poor dentist goes through.

If this county inspector is on a power trip, yet he is the one that will have to pass the inspection for the permitted work, I don't see how I can not do what he says. We also thought it was very odd that we couldn't replace a dangerous hanging wire alone.

[jbwhite]

I saw a post on another thread. The engineer (was that you charlie) (if you will allow me to misquote) said that he could not put his stamp on anything that was not done under his direct supervision.

Someone else from nc may tell me i am wrong, but, i believe that state law prohibits an electrical contractor from allowing his licence to be used by anyone who is not in his employment, and being paid for the work being done. I think they did this to make side work illegal.

The idea of having someone else cut and patch holes etc is a good one, because this is not electrical work.

[michael_k]

thank you Trevor. The 14g wiring is going to 15 amp breakers.

I'm sorry for the confusion. The inspector that is telling us we have to upgrade all the wiring with 12g/20 amp, is the local county permit office building inspector. The NACHI home inspector that screwed up is long gone from the picture.

We can pre-cut holes and certainly do all the patching and repair after the fact, if that will help with the cost. Hopefully, this electrician that is coming out next week will allow that.

I do understand the unforseen problems in old houses. We've hired a few handymen for other things that we couldn't tackle and after seeing their quality of work, and disappearing for days on end after we gave them $, we've come to the realization that if we want something done right that doesn't require a license, we are going to have to do it ourselves. We've uncovered some very odd things in our exploration.

That's a good idea to get an independent electrical inspection, but based on what the county inspector said, I don't think he'd give a permit for anything but the entire house rewire. He was also saying something about if the renovation costs more than 50% of the houses value, we would have to bring the entire house up to code. As in everything! He scared the hell out of us.

[infinity]

I don't think he'd give a permit for anything but the entire house rewire.Unless a local law required this he cannot simply force you to rewire the house simply because it has knob and tube. K & T is still an allowable wiring method that would be grandfathered in under the NEC.

[augie47]

unfortunately, 75% of the "rewired" homes in this aea are actually "new service" homes. can't add much to what's been said. My experience has been as others, you don't usually save money "helping". I believe most would agree, that the cost of the job will vary considerably with the amount of "wall damage" that can be incurred.
"Rewires" that are coordinated with new wall covering are, of course, a snap compared to "fishing". The amount of "access" you can allow, or even provide, will be a major factor.

[jes25]

I would suggest you continue to search and find a competent contractor that specializes in repair of older homes. I work in all older homes, and sometimes people ask if I do when they call and when I say "I do" they sound relieved. Your concern is your best asset to getting a good job IMO. I would look for pricing of about $100-$150 per opening (plug, switch light etc.) It sounds like the service is already new. I would also suggest you look for a smaller shop where the owner is on the job. In some cases the pricing will be better due to the lower overhead, and 1 last thought, If you are calling guys out of the phonebook those BIG ads are pretty expensive and we all know who pays for it.

[michael_k]

Thank you all for your excellent advice. Jes25, yes as a homeowner of an old house, I can confirm that we are SO relieved to find someone to work on an old house. We've had contractors come in here to give quotes on things and they never call back with a quote.

I guess they want the quick and dirty money of a new home. I can't really blame them, yet older homes teach you analytical troubleshooting techniques and increase your skill. At least I've found that the case with other repairs.

We will tear out what we have to, to be able to afford the work. Plaster and lath is a toxic nightmare to clean up, but we'll do it if we have to. We were going to tear out the plaster on all the exterior walls to insulate, until we found out that plaster holds in the heat and has good sound proofing. We found that to be the case after tearing out that one ceiling.

The electrician that is coming sounds like an older gentleman, so maybe he will have skill and patience with old houses. All the electricians we've called have been referrals from anyone we could get a referral from. This one was recommended by the manager of a local hardware stores electrical dept. We are desperate, and he might be the one to do the job.

Thank you all so much for your input. I'm very grateful and will let you know what the electrician says next week. Our son is going to go up in the attic this weekend and explore for knob and tube under the insulation, to put our fears a little to rest.

Thanks again, you've all been very helpful and encouraging.

[davedottcom]

Michael, I'm not trying to sound rude but the biggest thing you could do to "help" the electrician is to "move out" while the work is being done. I've done a bunch of these complete re-wires (sorry I'm in FL!) and usually ripping out the old wiring is the first thing to do...leaving little if any power anywhere for normal living.
I've seen people rent those storage pods to store most of their stuff and rent a room or stay with family, or even take a vacation! It makes the entire project go Much smoother and MUCH faster. This will make the job sound Much more appealing to the electrician.
A big job like that needs to be done in the most efficient way possible or it will drag on and on.
The first thing you have to do is come up with a new electrical layout. Unless you want it to be exactly like it was or simply bare minimum to pass inspection. To get an accurate quote you'll need an accurate count of sws, recps, appliances, C. fans, recessed lights, smoke alarms...etc...
Otherwise you'll get 5 different prices for 5 different jobs, and you wont know what they are including and what they aren't. Expect to pay the electrician for his time to help you do this!

Another huge help to the electricians would be to clean out both, the crawl space and the attic! If Anything is stored in either place, get it out, it's in the way! Removing ALL of the insulation would help tremendously ! Consider doing this and having an insulating Co. "Blow" in new stuff once it's rewired. That's pretty inexpensive and probably better than what you have now!
These are all things you can do to help him, but once he starts working get out of his way! :D
Good luck.

Dave

[BruceH]

Dave, that is the BEST advice I've ever heard. I absolutely relish working in a vacant, uncluttered house, where I can get to what I need to get to! Albeit, this is rare unfortunately.

[petersonra]

you might want to get in touch with a lawyer first.

I am not sure the HI can avoid liability with the 90 clause.

[jimwalker]

Yes at least you get out of the house so he can kill all the old wiring.That alone makes his job go far better.If moving furniture out is a problem then at least move it to an area he suggests.I have had offers of "i will help" sorry nothing personal but you would slow me down.As mentioned a cost of $100 to $150 per switch,receptacle,light fixture is very close.A rough time amount is 1 opening per hour for a journeyman with a good helper and thats with the above suggestions followed.
What you need to know and your electrician will know is just how far he must rewire.Meaning if the room only had 1 or 2 receptacles if that will pass if he only rewires them as opposed to bringing it to code spacing.One good source to find an electrician is to check at the building department for guys that just got licensed.They may be happy to get the work.Another way is to ask at the electrical supply houses if they know anyone,and leave your name and number.Only other thing you can do to keep cost down is tell him you will clean up any mess and remove all the boxes he fills up with trash.Then fix the holes and paint yourself.Wish you luck :)

[jbwhite]

This might be related. One year during a seasonal lay off I did work for a carpenter.

We replaced a bunch of termite dammage missed by the home inspector. The home owner somehow got the home inspector to pay the bill cause he fubared the inspection.

The OP might have a case here.

[apauling]

I would talk to a lawyer that has actual knowledge of your local and state laws regarding assumed liability and home inspectors. if there is any proof of collusion between inspector and homeowner, I doubt that any limit applies, except time from discovery. Most current law is tending toward 10 year limits. Even if inspector is out of town, his insurance (errors and omissions) is still in effect.

there are many tips about "old work" on this site (old work is what you have), use the search function. cutting and patching plaster is not amateur work.

It sounds as if you have punched a lot of buttons on the part of the ahj. If your representation is accurate, he is not fit for the job. i suspect that somewhere he has had his toes stepped on by you, or someone he thinks is you. He still shouldn't act this way, but a way out of this problem is what you need, not commiseration.

Others have suggested that you get an electrician to conduct a real inspection. i would suggest that you also have this electrician see what is up with the ahj, county inspector, or building offical as the whole house rewire is not our common experience as a requirement. he may believe that so much illegal work was done that it is in your best interests. I would try to find out without being argumentative or confrontational, maybe even apologetic (even assuming it's not your fault), what is really driving his attitude.

You are going to have to work with the county no matter what, and being terrified of the building department is not acceptable if you are above board. Solve this problem along with the inspection and a claim against the inspectors insurance co. should just about fix you up.

paul

[Flyersfan]

I suggest that you don't do more than what is required to make you and your family safe. Yes, a complete rewire of the house is an ideal solution, but it is NOT required. Why don't you hire a licensed electrician to make the necessary repairs to the obvious safety violations and call it a day. As iwire has said, K&T wiring is an acceptable witing method. My experience with it has told me that if I leave it alone, it's fine and will be okay for a long time to come. Make the minor repairs that are true safety hazards and leave it at that. You have scores of folks that say aluminum wiring should be replaced, and yes that would be ideal too, but I live in a community that has thousands of homes wired with aluminum wire and can count on one hand the number of incidents that have occurred as a result of this wiring. Do what's required, and no more. You'll be glad you did. The sky isn't falling.

[davedottcom]

Do what's required, and no more. You'll be glad you did. The sky isn't falling.
Michael, I had the impression you were leaning towards a total re-wire when I gave you all those suggestions. Obviously you would not need to go to those extremes if you were only rewiring a few circuits. That's MUCH easier! ;)

[George Stolz]

Along the lines of Paul's post, I would recommend that you allow the electrician you hire to fight the inspector, and stay out of it. Without a working knowledge of the code, you are at the whim of this guy who by all appearances is totally unreasonable.

A local electrician should be aware of any amendments, such as 12 gauge wire everywhere. That sounds highly invented.

[bradleyelectric]

Originally posted by georgestolz:
Along the lines of Paul's post, I would recommend that you allow the electrician you hire to fight the inspector, and stay out of it.
A local electrician should be aware of any amendments, such as 12 gauge wire everywhere. That sounds highly invented. I sometimes work things out with an inspector. I have never really fought with 1. I have straightened some out on some items. Fighting is a very bad way of putting it. This I believe requires an inspector and a licensed master electrician to decide the best course of what has to be done. In this area additional wires could be fished to add receptacles where ever you wanted to put them, and a total rewire of a room would only be required if more than 50% of the wall covering of a room would be removed. It can be done on a room by room basis in this area. I know this by talking to the head inspector in my area. His office is programmed in my cell phone for anytime I have a question on how he would like to see something done. That is what you need in the way of an electrician in your area. Do not expect him to call the inspector in front of you. I wouldn't. Whether the electrician would feel comfortable changing wiring out for the receptacles on a room by room basis would depend on what he sees and his comfort level with it.

[ December 03, 2005, 04:52 PM: Message edited by: bradleyelectric ]

[michael_k]

Thank you all for your responses. Quick question: What does AHJ stand for?

Update - We had a well experienced licensed electrician come out today. He is an older gentleman and VERY thorough. He crawled under the house, went in the attic, checked for 12g/14 g, checked the breaker box and traced some of the breaker/wiring to rooms. He spent 2 hrs here.

He said the 14g wire is not code and will have to go. The good news is, he didn't find too much of it. Most of the sellers rewire job is 12g. He will have to confirm as he goes that it wasn't spliced into inferior wiring though.

He has worked with the county building inspector many times, and says that he knows how to communicate with him. He agreed the building inspector is a beast, and that the way he treated me was totally uncalled for. He said there is white 12g wire in the house and that the inspector was wrong about it having to be yellow.

He confirmed that most of the rest of my house is grandfathered in and we won't have to bring all the house up to code for other things. This is where having an electrician that knows how to work with the county inspector will help. If it goes the other way, where we have to bring the plumbing, etc up to code, we will have a lawsuit on our hands with the seller,inspector, etc.

We will have to have new 110 wired smoke detectors, add exhaust fans in the bathrooms, add an elec outlet in the stairway and a 3way light for the staircase so we can turn it on from up/downstairs, as opposed to the 2 separate lights and switches now. Exterior lighting run under the carport and porch, will have to be put in conduit.

With the ceiling that we torn down, it looks like he is pleased with the access and it won't be too difficult. He is going to charge hourly + materials, and says it should be $5-7k. He will not have to redo all the wiring. He did say that code in this area is that you can't repair K&T- you have to replace it with up to code wiring. And the rest of the wiring has to pass code.

So that's where we are. He knows the electrican that hooked up the sellers homebrew wiring to the box, and said that he has to rewire much of that electricians work in town. He said the one that was going to charge $19k, that didn't want the job, doesn't like "work" period.

He won't be able to start for 2 weeks, and I realize the cost is just an estimate, but we have confidence in this electrician and will do what we have to do. All the other electricians that came out would have to 'dope it out' and get back to us which they never did, or walked through in 10 mins and didn't want the job at any price. For this older man to get on his hands and knees in the freezing cold, says alot.

We sent a certified letter to the HI and requested that he contact his liability insurance company. Depending on his response, we'll know which avenue to pursue, but yes, he does need to be reported and held liable. Along with the seller.

That's the best we can do for now. If I had full disclosure and a competent inspection prior to buying, I never would have purchased this house. As I said earlier, with the work, we are pricing the house beyond what the market would bring for the house. Hopefully, we will stay here for many years and the house will increase in value. We hope to leave this house to our son, so in that case it won't matter. We do want the house safe for us, him, and possibly our future grandchildren. If not, then the future owners will have a safe house.

I do know one thing, I will flee from anyone that wants to work on this house without a permit. As much a PITA the county building inspector is, he will provide a safety net against shoddy work. Accordingly, I would expect those that don't want to get a permit, don't want someone coming behind them to see all their shortcuts that aren't up to code.

Saying a prayer that this all works out. Thank you all SO much for all your input, advice, encouragement, and warnings. And thank you all for taking the time to reply!

[michael_k]

ps - very good advice about moving out while he works. Unfortunately, we have 4 adults here so it would be impractical financially. We are used to camping and roughing it, so that is not a problem.

The attic and crawl space are empty, and we can have all furniture, etc moved prior to him working if he needs it. We'll also use wire mold where we can if it saves tearing out a wall or ceiling, but it looks like he has good access as is with the crawl/attic/porches. We'll cut into floors if we have to to fish wire through, but it shouldn't be necesary.

[charlie b]

Originally posted by michael_k: Quick question: What does AHJ stand for?"Authority Having Jurisdiction." It is the phrase that the NEC uses for whatever governmental agency is responsible for oversight of electrical installation.