How should I run my conduit when it won't ever be seen

[copper123]

I had an interesting conversation with another electrical contractor the other day and really would like some thoughts and opinions on what you guys think.

I bid on a 50x100 building a while back. It had a full fire alarm system, lighting, ect. The ceiling was getting completely sheet rocked but they were going to put a drop ceiling in after the rock was fire taped. The scope called for all EMT conduit ran in the roof rafters and in all the metal studs of the walls ect. We were supposed to rough in with junction boxes mud rings ect and then come out on the rock where needed to drop fixture whips, power ect. Anyhow I lost the bid by 3000 dollars. A while ago I went into the building with another general contractor to look at some work he was going to do after the rough in was done. I was totally blown away. It looked like a four year old had bent the conduit. Hardly in true 90’s and a lot of the ½ conduit was bent just with pressure and straps as it snaked its way around the trusses. The contractor has also installed a few large deep junctions boxes, 12x12x8’s or similar and had many ½ inch and ¾ conduits going into it. Instead of lining holes up in a strait line and punching them out, they just cut out a hole wherever the conduit landed at the box. It was wild. Anyway, I got an opportunity yesterday to talk to the administrator on the job. In a very diplomatic way I told him how I could see how he beat me by a couple of thousand dollars. He asked what I was talking about. I explained that IMO electrical work is a skilled trade and even if I wanted my guys to bend conduit like that, they would never do it. His reply was very logical to a point and this is the basis of my questions. He said all that conduit that I was looking at is considered concealed, just like what you would see for PVC under a slab and that in his opinion that is what emt should look like. If you can get by with less bends, less 90’s ect, then by all means you should. Why go strait and perpediclular to the building lines. Any why bend a conduit if you can bow it over a distance? He also sited voltage drop issues with longer runs, it just went on and on. He even went as far to say it’s in a union handbook from Chicago or something. I have never seen union work produced like that. But I have only worked in one area my life, and it was not Chicago. We ended our conversation basically agreeing that we don’t agree. I also in political way told him that if that is what I need to do to win jobs, I thought he could have them.
Who is right? Where is the fine line? What is in a workmanship like manner?
Maybe I need to open my eyes a bit. Oh, also I told him in areas I have worked, an inspector would not let that pass. Is this the same with you guys? However, this was on a military base, and QC and inspection is completely different.
Thanks for the time!

[celtic]

Originally posted by copper123:
I got an opportunity yesterday to talk to the administrator on the job.

If you can get by with less bends, ...

He even went as far to say it’s in a union handbook from Chicago or something.

Who is right? Where is the fine line? What is in a workmanship like manner?

...this was on a military base, and QC and inspection is completely different.
All very telling...an adminstrator yapping about "getting by" and "voltage drop"...forget the union/non-union thing, that's the EC (owners) call if they want to run pipe like they have never done it before. The few bucks they saved in time/material really earned them some respect!
...and to think, some components on the space shuttle also went to the "low bidder".

I did a job on a recently DEcommissioned base. The HV contractor that had started the job was asked to leave...after having left several thousand feet of a 5KV cable laying on the ground with vitually no protection...while energized.

[GG]

I agree with you copper123, covered or not the conduit should have been installed perpendicular, plum, true 90's, parallel, and not just "as the crow flys". IMO you never know if years from now they dont remodel the place and want to tear all the drop ceiling and sheet rock out and make the place look bigger. When they uncover that mess of a conduit runs they are going to think who in the he77 allowed this train wreck to be installed? I know thats a big WHAT IF situation but I allways think of the worst case scenario. I can tell from reading your post that you take pride in your work and I would just keep doing it your way instead of lowering your standards.

[George Stolz]

I can see both sides.

What it comes down to IMO, is do what you do.

If everything you do is perfect, and that's your trademark, advertise it. Make it known. The low bid doesn't always win. :D

[growler]

Guys, I really wish I could say that I agree with you and that craftman quality will win out. In reality it doesn't, this crap quality way of doing commercial work has been going on now for over 20 years that I know of. We have been complaining about it for at least 20 years and the same companies are still getting jobs. The only people that care about the quality of your work are other electricians and you don't get many jobs from them. I have complained about the use of ENT and I don't use it, but plenty of contractors do and they have made good money using it. If you try bidding everything as a top quality job you are going to lose a lot of work.
The term around here for hack work is " Bow and Go ". Plenty of high class buildings look like crap above the ceiling grid. I stated the other day that I thought useing a panel as a junction box was hack work ( it is, but why should I care, if people are willing to pay for it). The real skill in doing electrical work is not bending the perfect four point saddle or making sure that every wire in the panel looks neat ( I wish it were). The real skill is walking away with a healthy profit from any job. This is a business it's not art. I'm sure you have herd the term " starving artist", that's what happens when quality becomes more important than profit. My advice is to try and do a good safe job but don't get obsessed with pipe bending.

[jeff43222]

Sometimes, it depends on the customer. I just got hired to do a garage and re-wire an A/C feed. One of the things the HOs were quite interested in is making all of the exposed runs look "neat." The ones in the garage really weren't too bad looking at all, but the A/C was pretty bad.

In any case, they want it nice and pretty, and that's what they're going to get.

[petersonra]

I personally do not care if conduit you cannot see is not perfectly straight, level, or plumb as long as it is servicable.

Cost does matter.

As for someone opening up the thing down the road and exposing the non-level conduit, too bad. Unless you know this is going to happen up front, I just don't see it as an issue.

No one expects MC or Romex to be straight and plumb, why should conduit have to be when you can't even see it when you are done?

I want the end result to look nice, but I am not all that concerned about what stuff that cannot be seen looks like, as long as it is safe and functional.

[chelectrical]

IMO quality workmanship wins out wether it is concealed or not. It is about working practices. If contractors will cut corners by slopping in concealed conduit then where else are they cutting corners (and this is the definition of cutting corners)? Besides, once an electrician is competent at running conduit he will get to a point where it will be installed nearly as fast as if he was slopping it in and he might just take more pride in all his work (a good thing for the reputation of the contractor at least in the long run). When you learn to measure properly and install it parrellel, plum and level it fits better and there is less time needed to make adjustments. If your people slop it in when it is concealed how are they going to learn to do it right when it counts? It does take alot of intention and training to do it right. For me it is also a matter of pride.

[petersonra]

I prefer quality workmanship but do not agree that quality workmanship is defined by making sure all the conduit runs are plumb and level.

Usually you are right about this though, if the conduit is not level and plumb it makes me a little nervous about the rest of the job.

OTOH, cost does matter, and if you are spending my money to make the conduit that no one will ever see look "nicer", you are not doing me a service.

[copper123]

Thanks for you posts guys. That is what is great about this site, such a wide difference of opinions and backgrounds. I have been thinking about this a lot after reading the posts. I guess it has to come down to what your shop is going to say. IMO if you do things sloppy as what I have described in my initial post, might that progression continue in other scopes of the job? If you teach your folks that clean, level, strait is the way to go, it should be easier in the long term to always perform that sort of task. Maybe some guys can be laxed about concealed work, but IMO its absolutely unacceptable to perform this type of work were its exposed. It would be the same as a panel board make up. If you learn how to make a panel up clean, you will start to become fast and have a good product all the way through. But another thing i have to admit, many times my underground PVC can start to look pretty ugly!

[chelectrical]

[QUOTE] [/QUOTE I prefer quality workmanship but do not agree that quality workmanship is defined by making sure all the conduit runs are plumb and level.]

How do you define quality workmanship regarding conduit installation?

How much will cost when you have to tear out and re-install an installation "that does matter" (ie. exposed) because your people never learned to do it properly. Anyway, I guess money is not the only reason I do this work. Easier for me to have this attitude as a one man show.

[macmikeman]

If it is intended to never be seen than it is not important to make it perfect. Do we worry about how pretty the wires inside the conduit runs look?. Or how about how the wire splices inside of j-boxes look?. What is very important is to provide stapping where required, hangers at appropriate intervals, proper conduit fill, and no kinks. If the guy brought the project in for less money than your bid and still made a profit on it - he is the winner and so is the customer- provided no code is violated in the install.

[petersonra]

Originally posted by chelectrical:
[quote] [/QUOTE I prefer quality workmanship but do not agree that quality workmanship is defined by making sure all the conduit runs are plumb and level.]

How do you define quality workmanship regarding conduit installation?

How much will cost when you have to tear out and re-install an installation "that does matter" (ie. exposed) because your people never learned to do it properly. Anyway, I guess money is not the only reason I do this work. Easier for me to have this attitude as a one man show. My definition of quality is:

1. meets all codes
2. it works
3. it got done on time
4. it got done w/i budget
5. the end result "looks nice"

I do understand your issue with this though. You feel like your guys will "cheat" on conduit installation when it does matter and would prefer to avoid that. To me, that seems to be more an issue of proper supervision and management than of quality.

I used to hear this argument against the use of Romex - that it would cause the guys to be sloppy when they did EMT.

[chelectrical]

I know my installations are not perfect but I believe they are of good quality and I feel I get them done in a reasonable amount of time. In a concealed ceiling they probably are not quite as neat as if they were exposed. But, I always ask my self the old question; is this something I would be proud or ashamed to put my name on? And I remember the old saying a quality job lasts long after the price is forgotten.

Again, I am a one man show so it is really my name on my work. I can see where the pressures of having to meet payroll would come into play to some extent.

I probably will never make alot of money in business. I think I will always be an electrician and not much of a businessman.

[GG]

Originally posted by chelectrical:


I probably will never make alot of money in business. I think I will always be an electrician and not much of a businessman. I thought I was the only one who felt like that. I have been in business for 3 years for myself and by the time I pay advertising, ins., rent, etc., there sure isnt a whole heck of alto left. Most of my extra money is spent on beer and women, the rest I waste. :D

[petersonra]

If you are in business for yourself you are a businessman first. otherwise you will be in big trouble.

the two are not mutually incompatible.

[iwire]

I like to make my installations look good, great even. :cool:

That said I very much believe it is up to the customer to decide how things are to be done. (Within Code)

If they want me to run conduit as the crow flies to lower their bill I may not like it but I will do it.

Lately we have started working for a fair ground, most of their exposed work is PVC.

Personally I do not like PVC other than underground, my choice would be RMC. I try to sway them to RMC but in the end it is their money and their facility.

JMO, Bob

[cselectric]

Straight, true, plumb and level, everytime everywhere. I have a few issues with anyone that can't be bothered to live by that standard.

First, some will say that it doesn't matter as it won't be seen. But, it will be seen, if by no one else, by the general contractor. Sure, the general is looking for low prices, but do you really think he's looking for hack work? And what of the inspector? Hacked up pipe work lets him know that you've chosen cheap over quality. You think he's gonna pass anything you do without looking real close?

Next, quality is an attitude as much as it is a finished product. You take a guy who can't be bothered to run neat pipe runs, do you really think you can count on him to make good splices or correctly hang a light fixture or strut rack? My years in service tell me you are wrong to believe that a hack is capable of being anything but. As a service technician, I always dreaded those buildings in which the pipe work looked like it was done by chimps. Because the splices always looked just as bad.

Finally, there is the issue of safety. And many would say I'm splitting hairs here, but I'm not one to take chances on grounding. If a pipe is allowed to bow and run, do you really think it is hitting every box connector and coupling plumb and square? If it's not, can you guarantee that the ground integrity is adequate? Whats more, can you really count on the guy who's strong arming all of his pipe bends to actually tighten all of his fittings? After all, turning screws and wrenching locknuts takes time, which is contrary to the "throw it in there any old way, no one will see it" school of thought.

[chelectrical]

Couldn't agree more CS.

[luckyshadow]

I thought I was doing hack work when I failed to use box offsets above a ceiling ! Other then that straight plumb level like CS stated.
I quit working for a guy who wanted it ran as the crow flies !!

[peter d]

Bottom line, it depends on how much the customer can pay. If they can pay for art work, then do art work. If they can't, then you have to forgo a box offset here or there and not be so anal about how it looks.

BYW, it is possible to run raceways as the crow flies without doing a complete hack job.

Furthermore, an inspector can't fail a messy job just because the conduit doesn't run at all right angles. As long as the code isn't being violated, the job must pass inspection without issue.

[augie47]

peter d, you may be correct to a point, but my vote goes with cs.
if a journeyman has pride in his work, it shows in his conduit runs. when i inspect and see a half-baked, albeit legal, conduit run, I sure check closer for code violations and unsafe conditions.
IMHO, a level and a square aren't necessarily needed, but neat, straight conduit runs box offsets can sure set a path for the inspector.

Its kinda like temporaries. I've yet to see a job pass the 1st inspection, if the temporary service was junky.

[cselectric]

Originally posted by peter d:
Bottom line, it depends on how much the customer can pay. If they can pay for art work, then do art work. If they can't, then you have to forgo a box offset here or there and not be so anal about how it looks.

BYW, it is possible to run raceways as the crow flies without doing a complete hack job.

Furthermore, an inspector can't fail a messy job just because the conduit doesn't run at all right angles. As long as the code isn't being violated, the job must pass inspection without issue. Personally, I'd rather forego working for those who don't have the money to afford top quality. Do I leave a lot of money on the table by playing it that way? Perhaps. But how much of that money I left behind comes in the form of bad checks? The bottom line, is I work for customers that expect better, and I expect them to inspect better. I deliberately avoid those customers that don't.

BTW, an inspector can reject a messy installation. After all, all work must be performed in "a neat and workman like manner." most of the inspectors I now reserve using that for the biggest of hacks, as it tends to lead to catfights. But, I do know at least one inspector who cites that more often than any other code article. Besides, finding a failure isn't hard when looking at sloppy work. Again I state, I have never seen a slip shod, as the crow flies pipe job that wasn't rife with loose fitting screws and locknuts, not to mention inadequate fastening of pipes. Lets be real honest here and admit that "fast and dirty" is just that, fast... and DIRTY. There may be a few electricians out there that can play fast and loose on pipe runs and still do an electrically sound, code compliant installation, perhaps you are one of them. Personally, I've never met one, nor have I ever seen the work of one. Anecdotally, I would presume that is a rare animal.

[peter d]

For the record, I always run my conduit straight and take pains to make the job look good. I would never do work that the opening poster described.

But we also live in the bottom line, fast paced real world, and sometimes we have to lower our standards to get a job done within certain paramaters.

I am not advoacting violating the code, so I hope that is clear. :)

[cselectric]

Originally posted by luckyshadow:
I thought I was doing hack work when I failed to use box offsets above a ceiling ! Other then that straight plumb level like CS stated.
I quit working for a guy who wanted it ran as the crow flies !! There used to be an inspector, in West Allis Wisconsin that would fail you for not making box offsets. His theory: "you have to strap the pipe within 3 feet of the box, therefore the pipe drops 1/2" in that 3 feet, therefore your pipe is not entering the connector straight and true, therefore you cannot guarantee an adequate ground connection." With that inspector, you either made box offsets every time, used minnies, or ran a ground wire in every pipe. The last item on that list was what he really wanted.

[peter d]

Originally posted by cselectric:

BTW, an inspector can reject a messy installation. After all, all work must be performed in "a neat and workman like manner." most of the inspectors I now reserve using that for the biggest of hacks, as it tends to lead to catfights. Where in the NEC can I find the definition of "neat and workmanlike?"

That code section is unenforceable. As you said yourself, the inspector should be able to find real violations on a hack job without relying on "neat and workmanlike."

[cselectric]

Originally posted by peter d:
Where in the NEC can I find the definition of "neat and workmanlike?"

That code section is unenforceable. As you said yourself, the inspector should be able to find real violations on a hack job without relying on "neat and workmanlike." Well, I usually look for definitions in Article 100 :D (just messin with ya')

But, I do know of municipalities that enforce that rule. Realistically, a municipality can enfore, or not enforce any part of the NEC they want. Adoption is, after all, completely voluntary and subject to revision or addendum as the local governing body sees fit. In my experience, the Electrical inspector often has a lot of sway in the adoption process, as he is often the only one in the confines of a city's governing body that has any electrical knowledge at all. If that inspector is a hard nose about neatness, then you will likely see the "neat and workmanlike manner" enforced.

But, I think we both agree, that is a cheap and lazy way to inspect, when there are likely many easy to spot violations waiting for that red tag.

[luckyshadow]

As for not using box offsets above ceiling and the pipe not entering square, I pull grounds in all my conduits. Pulling grounds in conduit is the norm here.

[iwire]

I just do not buy the notion that a plumb and level raceway is any indicator of electrical safety. I am willing to give an example.

I recently ran two 2" and two 4" EMTs about 220' through an existing suspended ceiling in an occupied office building.

I scouted my route for quite sometime and found I could run the raceways straight if I had them almost touching the ceiling grid or I could go up to the beams and have conflicts with duct work.

Well IMO blocking ceiling tiles is lousy and a violation of 300.23.

My choice was run high and run the conduits pitched like a plumber does, over 50' of run I had to drop 5". We pulled a string from point to point and set our hangers to that.

Over the length of the entire 220' the pitch changes a few times, to go over ducts and under beams.

Yes I could bend in offsets, we have the tools, but then I end up with needing more pull points. It is not a matter of being cheap with pull boxes, it is the matter of what I would do with the conductors being pulled. They would end up laying across peoples desks.

If you go up in this ceiling the pipe runs look neat and workmanlike, 1 5/8" strut racks on 1/2" rod every 8' to 10', steel set screw fittings and 48" long pull boxes where I did need them. The only odd thing is the pitching.

It is not unsafe and it is not hack, it is an efficient use of time and materials and I would do it again.

Every situation has it's own problems and if you use the same answer for every problem IMO your not using an open mind.

JMO, Bob

[growler]

Bob, you did a great job, exactly the right thing. For one thing, you have the least number of bends in the pipe from point A to point B. Easier pull means less stress on the cable. You are off the ceiling tiles and those that come after you will bless you for it. As far as pitch goes I don't see any problem since most single story structures have a certain amount of pitch to the bar joist ( from front to rear of building ), a lot more than 5". What do these people do to keep their pipe level, space it down below the bar joist. Everyone I know uses the drive on Caddy style hangers for small conduit and run right with the red iron. What are you going to do, build a rack for a single run of 3/4" EMT. As far as box offsets, if you use the right materials ( Caddy Hangers) , you don't need box offsets because the pipe is already spaced correctly to enter a 1900 box. If you keep the number of bends down to the minimum you can push a lot of the wire from box to box ( saving much time ). Many of the companies that don't exactly do precision work in concealed area have been around for 50 years and have more than a 100 employees ( they had to change with the times ). If this is hack work, they do some really big jobs, including high rise buildings and shopping malls. Their conduit work looks fair above the grid but it will never be anything to write home to mom about. ( they keep getting paid and they stay in business ).

[ July 31, 2005, 08:51 AM: Message edited by: growler ]

[George Stolz]

Originally posted by cselectric:
But, I do know at least one inspector who cites that [110.12] more often than any other code article.Sounds like a well-researched professional, that one. :roll:

[ July 31, 2005, 09:54 AM: Message edited by: georgestolz ]

[cselectric]

I don't see where your install meets any of the criteria discussed here Bob. For starters, plumb is a relative thing. What looks plumb and what is plumb are often different. When working a pitched roof, I run the bar joists just like everyone else. Is that truly plumb? In reference to the floor, it isn't. But it is parallel to the roof structure and therefore looks fine. I've also deliberately pitched pipes to match exisiting conditions. I ran an entire rack of 3/4" out of plumb down a 200' corridor because the tin knocker was there first and ran his duct out of plumb. My pipe rack matched his duct work perfectly and looked great. Had I ran plumb and level to the floor, or fully parallel to the ceiling, we both would have looked bad, and since he was in first the preception would have been that I was the one out of level... and perception beats reality every time.

[iwire]

Thanks Growler and cselectric, it happens the deck I was attaching to was level as there where many floors above.

But certainly I work on many pitched decks and no doubt we follow the pitch.

Following existing conditions can be a skill itself.

[cselectric]

Following existing conditions can be a complete nightmare. I once had to rehang a pipe run I was working on because the tenant insisted I was running it out of level. It looked that way because I was running next to the plumbers DWV line, which was obviously pitched. It was then that I realized that "looking straight and level" is generally better than being straight and level.

[iwire]

Originally posted by cselectric:
It was then that I realized that "looking straight and level" is generally better than being straight and level. No doubt.

I have learned that in many of the old red brick buildings in Boston the motor joints run down hill than back up. I am much better off just following the motor joint than picking up a level.

[copper123]

We call the plub thing plumb to the world, or plumb to the existing conditions.
Funny story: We had a apprentice one summer that was in charge of wiring up a couple of new office trailers for the company. We chose to use 40 foot refer trailers as they can be heated easily, pulled to jobs easily and have tons of room. Anyhow, he was supposed to pipe the inside. We all gave him a hard time about making sure his pipe was plumb, true ect. (electrical contractors have to have good work) It was a slow time and he took his time. The job looked great, he used his torpedo level on everything. But he had only one problem, the trailers were not sitting level at all. All his conduit was plumb with the world, but not with the trailer. When they leveled the trailers, it was very apparent that the conduit was not strait anymore. It was pretty funny. We gave him a bad time and also the Journeyman that was supposed to be looking out for him. But I totally agree, I try to match building lines if they are crooked, if you run strait and true, it will really shout at you. Also, on the same line as what this thread is about, if you run good clean work, bend your offsets with a tape measure ect. Its very easy to go back in a match bends when you go back in. Guys that just bend a little here, little there, man its hard to make your stuff look the same.

[sfav8r]

Originally posted by GG:
[quote]Originally posted by chelectrical:
[qb]

Most of my extra money is spent on beer and women, the rest I waste. :D Made my day, thanks.

For the record. I like romex, EMT, or anything else to be plumb, square, straight, etc. I will be the first to admit that there is almost never a rational need for this. If the romex is wavy as it follows the studs and makes a wide sweeping turn, it is a perfectly fine installation. I just don't like the way it looks.

I have spent time over the years trying to justify why romex needs to look crisp, flat and make nice radius turns. I finally gave up. I don't justify it anymore. I just do it.

Were it not for my wife, the walls in my home would be lexan, not sheetrock ;) I made that wire look great, someone ought to appreciate it. I felt the same way when the plumber who did my house finished. It was a shame to cover it up.