Employment

[actionjoe]

Is it illegal to discriminate against someone applying for a job with long hair and a beard? He is applying for an apprentice position.

[jeff43222]

It depends entirely on what the laws are where you live. There's no federal law that prevents this kind of discrimination, but state and local laws vary. I've lived in cities that did have laws prohibiting such discrimination. In one case that made the news, an applicant for a parking-garage attendant position was offered the job but was told he would have to shave his beard. He filed a complaint with the local authorities and won. The company was headquartered in another city and didn't know the local laws. Oops.

The law in my state doesn't specifically prohibit discrimination based on appearance, and it does say you can discriminate if there is a bona fide occupational need. For example, it seems to me someone could be required to shave a beard if he had to wear a respirator and couldn't get a proper seal unless he was clean-shaven.

These kinds of laws are usually anything but clear-cut, and there are several protected classes (e.g., suppose a Sikh applied for the apprenticeship; their religion forbids them from cutting their hair or shaving their beards).

This is the kind of thing only a competent lawyer can answer, so don't take my information as definitive.

[charlie b]

Why would you want to? If the person seems to be capable of doing the job, if he comes with good performance references, if he has a good attitude and a good work ethic, if he has a sufficient background in math and science to handle the work for which he is applying, if he has some related work experience, if he has a friendly personality, and if you think he could succeed at the job, why would you want to discriminate for reasons of appearance?

For my part, if he wants to waste his hormones growing hair, that is his business. :D LOL But that comes from someone who long ago adopted the “bald is beautiful” perspective.

[jeff43222]

I agree with Charlie. I was only talking about the legalities involved. I speak as someone who currently owns a beard and has had long hair previously.

I once interviewed for a job with the National Security Agency, who you would expect would be very conservative appearance-wise. But I was told before I went that the only dress code they have is that you have to wear something (total nudity is frowned upon). When I went to their facility, I was shocked at what I saw. Some people looked like they just rolled out of bed and were still in their pajamas, other people were wearing suits, and everything in between. Grooming was also a completely mixed bag. They only cared about whether you can do the job.

[ryan_618]

At the bare minimum it is unethical as hell.

[friebel]

On the subject of long hair and a beard. If you are being hired to work in a industrial setting that requires the wearing of a respirator, etc., you will need to be clean-shaven. I worked in industry for some time,and this is an OSHA rule.

[jimwalker]

If you simply dont want him then just dont offer the job.You might be passing up a great electrician.So unless maybe this guy is to do service calls and might offend your customers why not hire him ?

[actionjoe]

That's what I'm afraid of, if I send him on a service call or even to one of my jobsites, such as a latter day saints church, how will that look even if he can do the work and his personality is A1?

[pwhite]

actionjoe,
if this is a buisness you are starting up, you must spell out in detail the dress code, conduct code, ect... for your buisness from day one ( on printed buisness applications). you then must stick to those guidelines, no exceptions. you will then be restricted by not adding to your company guidelines if someone applies for a job that you don't like.

this was from a lawsuit several years ago. i can't remember the year. with today's legal system, i would see a lawyer first.

if there is a safety issue with his long hair, you must spell out the safety rules.

a food processing plant will require a hair net and also a facial hair net as well.

the rules can go on forever.

[actionjoe]

Well I checked with my lawyer and he states that I am right about what working standards my company requires. I just can't change mid stream for anyone else. I mean no harm to any of you out there with long hair, a beard or both. If thats you style and your customers don't mind then more power to you. My existing customers I know will not like the presence of someone that doesn't look neat and I assume new customers might be the same. So anyway I told the apprentice that in order to work here he would have to get a haircut, shave and not to wear ear rings during work hours.

[jeff43222]

It might be a good idea to also ask a lawyer about how to avoid discriminating against protected classes. It's entirely possible that you might get a job applicant whose religion forbids him from shaving (we have people like that at my office), and to require him to shave without a bona fide work requirement is likely going to result in a discrimination complaint. Then, if you let him keep his beard to avoid discriminating against him on religious grounds, other employees can gripe that since he can have a beard, they should be able to as well.

My company deals with this by not having a lot of restrictions, and it seems to work pretty well. No one gets any special privileges that anyone else doesn't get, and no one is filing discrimination lawsuits.

[jimwalker]

Why not just do what others have done for years ?
Have enterview and just tell him you will let him know.Then place his application in file 13

[charlie b]

Because that is an invitation to a lawsuit. Perhaps it has been done through the years, but it was risky each time it was done. In recent years, the processes of evaluating candidates, making hiring decisions, evaluating work load, and making lay off decisions have all undergone scrutiny in the courts.

[jeff43222]

It's also a slippery slope. If you don't want to hire someone with a beard and long hair because the customers aren't comfortable with such people, it's not long before you start thinking about only hiring white people because your customers aren't comfortable around someone whose background is African or Arab or whatever. Then you are clearly breaking the law.

This is why I think it's a bad idea to discriminate against any applicants for any reason other than whether they can do a good job. "Don't judge a book by its cover" really does apply.

We have an engineer in my office who has a beard and insists on perming his hair in a 70s-style that can only be described as "Brady Bunch". But he is universally acknowledged as the go-to guy if you run into a problem that's just too hard to solve, and we'd be in big trouble if we lost him. He's also a nice guy. Good thing the company doesn't have a "no beards" policy.

[william runkle]

I sure hope you have a dress and appearance code of ethics in writing with copies given to all employees. This is hypothetical situation for you what if one of your best journeyman has a case of midlife crises and comes to unshaven and stop getting haircuts, what will you do?

[iwire]

I am still trying to comprehend that in 2004 that there are still people who are uncomfortable around people with beards and long hair. :D

[mjf]

I seem to loose my razor every year as soon as it starts to get cold!!!

Amazingly, I seem to locate it again as soon as it starts to warm up :D

[pierre]

Mike
If you need assistance when it gets cold, I have this old knife in the bottom of my bag somewhere. I can come up there and give you a quick shave... :D

Pierre

[physis]

I figured Bob for the Mike Holt look. Sorry Bob.

I hire a guy to help out sometimes and he's ugly, fat, dirty and has long hair. I wish he'd bathe more and looked better and there's places I can't take him but he's a pretty good guy.

What bothers me isn't all that but that he's a little slow and wrecks my tools sometimes. :(

[hbiss]

Ok, how about this- I have a guy who has worked with me for better than 25 years. He is a good worker, knows the business, shows up pretty much on time and we get along well.

Problem is he looks a lot different than he did 25 years ago. Due to health problems he has gained a lot of weight and now sweats all over the place. I "donated" suspenders to keep his pants up :eek: but nothing is going to make this guy GQ material.

This isn't good for the company image I know but what can I do? He is a good guy and I couldn't let him go after all this time. I can't afford to hire somebody else and keep him in the background.

-Hal

[iwire]

I hope that guy does not read this forum. :D

[jimwalker]

Prejudice doesn't seem to stop at skin color or race.Real shame but customers are easily impressed over appearance of a service call man and not his ability.Often when i had to go do a bid or service call we set it up for first thing in morning or took extra clothes so i could change.

[apauling]

physis: I never worked for you. :D

paul

[luke warmwater]

You can have long hair and/or a beard and keep it neat.

My hair used to be over 3feet long. I used to keep it in a pony-tail. I never had a problem with an employer.
It's not how long it is, it's how neat the appearance.

I own my company.
I have 10 earrings, a bunch of tattoos, and my hair has been every color in the rainbow (right now it is black w/some blonde roots comming in.)

I could not, nor would I ever, not hire someone because of a beard or long hair.

[physis]

You're killin' me paul. I'm still laughing at that. Just when I told my girlfriend she can never mess with this site, because you guys are so serious and professional, you people start acting like this. :D

His description didn't sound so bad when I was writing it. Now that I read it I'm wondering if I shouln't give him a pink slip.

There is an issue that I think is valid though. I'm scared to send a fat guy into an attic. And that's my favorite place to use a guy. I don't want to go up there. This guy, Marty we'll call him, 'cause that's his name, gets all the basement work though.

Now he'll know it's him Bob. I should never have mentioned basement work. :D

[ August 17, 2004, 03:03 PM: Message edited by: physis ]

[apauling]

physis, just imagine him taller, and he won't be as heavy.

if he's willing to be in the attic in the summer, how can you fault him. Buy some attic boards to spread the weight (3/4 ply or equal just over 4' ((4'6")) to span two 2' bays, paint this side up and put air fresheners on the bottom.

paul

[physis]

I can just imagine him taking two and half hours to get himself and his two joist skis 20 feet across the attic. I can also imagine him and 75 pounds of sheet rock hanging from the ceiling by an NM cable and a heater duct. But he is willing to go.

[msd]

I just fired Mr. GQ

Comments like......
I can't fit in there. (any crawl space / attic)
My clothes might get dirty.
Got to be home early to get ready for a date.

He was a good electrician.
Pretty to...<LOL>
Just not a good employee.

Some fat, ugly, dirty, smelly guy with a beard and long hair is going to get Mr. GQ's job.

[physis]

Marty doesn't smell, you would expect him to, but he doesn't.

[pwhite]

jimwalker,
be careful when you say to file the application in file 13. most buisnesses are required to keep applications on file for a spceified time limit.