Apprentice running jobs? [Archive]

bphgravity

03-27-2003, 08:52 PM

This can be a real touchy subject. My concern would be the qualifications of the other guy. Just because he is not licensed, it doesn't mean he isn't a good electrician with good management skills. I have worked with companies in the past where seniority of time was the preference over actual ability or entitlement. In some cases, "office personel" with no field experience at all would run jobs? I personaly teach an apprentice program right now where many of the students are older than I and with many more years of experience. However, these students are good electricians that are just getting into the education end a little later in their careers than some. I would bring your concerns to upper management and determine how they plan on using your skills and when they plan to advance your position. :)

roger

03-27-2003, 08:53 PM

Wolfman56, yes I have been in this situation many years ago in an area (FL) with no license to apprentice ratio. In my case I actually enjoyed watching this person make mistakes after trying to help the "hot shot" out.

I was payed the average in the area so that wasn't a problem. The problem was, that even with the entertaiment of watching this everyday, I just couldn't take it so I moved on.

Today, I would probably stick around because I would love to just do my 8 hours and go home with no headaches. Thats just me.

It sounds as though your frustration may not be short lived, so you may need to move on as I did.

Good luck

Roger

jxofaltrds

03-27-2003, 10:05 PM

Wolfman

"Would you quit?"

NO.

I worked on ECM (electronic counter measures) in the military. Started as a "helper" for an electrical contractor.

I just asked how do you do this? They will eventually realize that you know what you are doing. The only way the could troubleshoot was to do it "hot". They had no way how to use the "wiggy" to "ring out" (continuity check) any circuits.

Play dumb. Most, not all, are intimidated by those who know more than they know.

Not dumb, not intimidated, and definitely not smart.

electricmanscott

03-27-2003, 10:13 PM

Here in Mass it would be illegal. I would absolutely quit AND I would turn them in.

bphgravity

03-28-2003, 09:05 AM

Is it at all possible that the company is just getting you familiar with their methods and practices by having you work with this guy, and as soon as you have done a job or two, you will go on your and maybe even get an apprentice of your own?

03-28-2003, 05:16 PM

I wont let anyone run work unless I know them or they have worked for us for a year, It takes a year to flush out the flaws drunk ,drugs, dosnt show up ,cant communicate ,cant handle customers dose side work for my customers etc and somones strong points .If it comes down to my nephue who grew up with me and somone new my nephue will run work untill somone has proven themselves better.As an employer when I see somone with 10to 20 yrs and they arent established in a shop a shop rat :D I wonder why ?

correiaelectric

04-16-2003, 11:02 PM

If your state requires journeyman to be licensed then it is illegal for an apprentice to run your onsite project they are suppose to learn from you that is why they are called an apprentice Now if he was hired as a project manager that would be a different story but you certainly have the authority to question any electrical violations that he may be requesting of you. Bottom line is if you are a Journeyman and he is listed as an apprentice than you are the boss on that job if he is a Project manager (not performing installation but strictly paper managing and scheduling then he is the boss. The fact that you have a license makes you responsible for the installation on that job and if there is a violation it is your fault unless your Master Electrician Supervisor instructs you to install improperly.

definitive

04-20-2003, 12:58 PM

I couldnt disagree more, correiaelectric If your state requires journeyman to be licensed then it is illegal for an apprentice to run your onsite project they are suppose to learn from you that is why they are called an apprentice. In what code book or state administrative book is this in. I need to see that one to believe it.
Just how on earth could they ever enforce that if it were a rule?
Im an electrical contractor, and if one of my inspectors called me and said, "it seems your apprentice is in charge out here and the journeyman is taking orders from him. Im gonna write you a citation.", he would undoubtedly get an earful from me and from his boss. Inspectors have a hard enough job as it is. And it seems, that "rule" would only be setting them up to fail.

iwire

04-20-2003, 01:11 PM

definitive,

That is rule here in the New England area.

You need at least a Journeyman's license to run any work.

It is not the local inspector that watches over this, though I am sure he can drop a dime on you, it is a State Licensing Board.

If you pull a permit with your license than have run an apprentice run the job you are subject to fines, suspension of license or after repeat offenses they can take your license permanently.

MA has a web site where they make all this, including the names of those involved public. I will try to find it and put up the link here.

iwire

04-20-2003, 01:21 PM

Here is a link to the site Map for the Mass. License Board.

If you read the press releases you will find out about enforcement.

And you can find the laws governing who can run work.

Mass Lic. Board (http://www.state.ma.us/reg/services/reg32.htm)

[ April 20, 2003, 05:31 PM: Message edited by: iwire ]

definitive

04-20-2003, 03:28 PM

So your telling me that even if a licenced journeyman is there, an apprentice cannot be in charge? How could anyone enforce that? I understand that you need a proper journey/apprentice ratio. And as a contractor, I follow this rule. But I have apprentices that blow alot of journeys out of the water when it comes down to it.
For example, I had a journey working for me once that had worked 6 years on multi-family dwellings. For six years all this guy did was pull service entrance conductors underground, but he had enough time in to take his test. I hired him strictly to be in compliance with local ratio.
But i put him with an apprentice thats worked for me for 3 and a half years. This kid is sharp, he just doesnt have the hours yet to get his license. In his 3.5 years hes had nothing but high-end remodel experience, thats what my company does. Hes also been in school since he started working for me learning theory, code, controls, and state administrative codes. And your telling me that when i send them out to a job, if the apprentice is showing the journey what to do, i could get a "dime dropped."? Im sorry but that sounds absolutely rediculous.

[ April 20, 2003, 02:33 PM: Message edited by: definitive ]

iwire

04-21-2003, 05:05 AM

definitive, I agree with you 100% on a couple of items.

1) Without a doubt some apprentices are better than some licensed workers.

2) Enforcement of who is in charge if you have both licensed and unlicensed workers on the job would be difficult.

But, the fact that is hard to enforce does not IMO change the fact that they do not have a license and in the States eyes that means they are not qualified.

IMO as the owner of a business you get to choose who runs work for you, but only out of those tested and licensed by the State.

If this was not the case why hire licensed people at all?

It is much cheaper to hire unlicensed people and be able to undercut the competition who are using licensed help.

If your licensed worker can not run work get rid of them and hire a licensed worker who can.

To that you might say a talented licensed worker costs more.

Which brings me to the apprentice you describe that you are using as a licensed worker.

Do you pay them what the going rate is for a Licensed Foreman?

I doubt it, so IMO you are taking advantage of them.

By definitive Im sorry but that sounds absolutely rediculous It is certainly your right to feel that way, but licensing helps us all, it keeps the workers wages up and provides some protection for the companies that use them.

I do not expect I will change your opinion, after all you are "definitive". :D

[ April 21, 2003, 06:25 AM: Message edited by: iwire ]

electricmanscott

04-21-2003, 07:57 AM

Well said Bob. The rules are there to protect consumers and YOU definitive. If you do not want to run a business that complies with the rules and regulations in your field you have no business being in this business. Unfortunately there are many rules and laws that some find rediculous but thats the way it is. "You mean I have to send how much of that money I busted my *** for to Uncle Sam?"

definitive

04-21-2003, 12:45 PM

If you do not want to run a business that complies with the rules and regulations in your field you have no business being in this business. I think that was uncalled for. I clearly expressed in my previous post that I DO follow the rules. I ALWAYS have a licensed journeyman on site.
If this was not the case why hire licensed people at all?
Again, I expressed in my previous post, I always follow ratio regulations.
Which brings me to the apprentice you describe that you are using as a licensed worker.

Do you pay them what the going rate is for a Licensed Foreman?
Again, if you had completly read my post you would know that Im NOT using him as a licensed worker. Hes working with a journeyman at ALL TIMES! But he knew more about remodelling than the journeyman that happened to be working with him at the time.
And as for how much I pay him, he makes more than most licensed guys. I pay guys according to how good they are, not their time in the trade. I dont train my guys to be super fast, and I dont expect them to break their backs on the job.
Believe me, I know where you guys are comming from. Ive worked for some real scum-bags in my career, and I know the license is there to protect all of us. But dont you agree that sometimes you have to make a judgement call? Im really not trying to be argumentative, I appreciate all of the replies. But when you say the rules are sometimes ridiculous, but we must follow them anyways, Im confused as to where the rules say the journeyman has to be in charge.

[ April 21, 2003, 12:58 PM: Message edited by: definitive ]

jeff n

04-21-2003, 07:01 PM

I live and work in Mass. I guess what it comes down is semantics, what do you mean "running the job"? If you mean the helper is showing the new journeyman how you (the owner) like things done that would be ok perhaps. If the helper is laying out the work to be done and deciding code compliance issues I don't think I buy that. In Mass. if something isn't correct they won't go looking for the helper, the journyman has his license on the line. "My helper told me to do it that way" just won't cut it regardless of what you say. Its his license the helper doesn't have much to lose.

definitive

04-21-2003, 07:33 PM

Maybe our states are different. In my state they dont go after the journeyman, they go after the administrator. Their are 2 different licenses in washington state. Journeyman and administrator. Administrator is a much harder test, but anyone can take it regardless of experience, and every electrical contractor must employ at least 1 administrator.
So when it comes down to it, maybe our states are just different.

iwire

04-22-2003, 07:22 AM

There is not much doubt that the states could do things differently.

But you should not be surprised at some of the responses.

The way I look at it and I think some others do, is you keeping qualified licensed guys out of work, taking advantage of the apprentice and making it hard for those that follow the rules intent, (not just the literal reading of a rules) to make competitive bids. :(

Why do you think there is a ratio rule? :confused:

[ April 22, 2003, 06:23 AM: Message edited by: iwire ]

wolfman56

04-22-2003, 01:51 PM

Greetings from the one who started this thread! I’m amazed at the diversity of opinions on this subject. Now that I have experienced being the journeyman under an apprentice here's my opinion.
First let me say that this job was in Oregon. Though that state is heavy with regulations, BCD has no problem with the arrangement. Same for the state of Washington! They both indicated that the apprentice could not decide “How” it’s done, just what’s to be done.
We were doing a custom home. The apprentice asked my “opinion” on switch locations but that’s all. The Apprentice determined how many openings and or recessed can lights per circuit, the size disconnect and wire sizes for the A.C., the number and arrangement kitchen circuits, and he did the panel.
I want to say that the apprentice was respectful to me and was. In fact he was very careful not to “lord it over me”. He was also “on the ball”, as he was pretty good. Oh, by the way, he was only getting paid apprentice scale.
However, this is my observation.
First off, isn’t deciding HOW a job is done a big part of running a job? Such as how many and what load openings per circuit. Being in this situation I found that I had no desire to give the apprentice any pointers or suggestions of the kind that a teacher would want to give the student, after all he’s not my apprentice. He misses out on training. Yes it’s a matter of attitude, but look at it this way. All journeyman have “done their time” as the apprentice, and had to be subordinate to the journeyman, then with time accumulate much experience. So I see it as an insult that after many years in the trade, be put under the supervision of someone who has not even “done their time”, this not even considering that the apprentice is young enough to be my kid.
All in all the whole idea of apprentice over journeyman while not necessarily breaking a law goes against the spirit and reason for the, “journeyman – apprentice” relationship. The requirement of apprentices to always be with a journeyman becomes null and without purpose. This apprentice over journeyman, is a self serving arrangement by the employer usually as a way to cut costs or show favoritism.

As far as CM’s statement:
As an employer when I see someone with 10to 20 yrs and they aren’t established in a shop a shop rat I wonder why? :D
I understand you’re implication. There are people such as I that have NEVER lost employment for anything other than his employer not having enough work. Unfortunately when you’re in the mid 40s and the company goes out of business it’s very hard to become someone else’s “shop rat”.
Rick

definitive

04-22-2003, 08:29 PM

The way I look at it and I think some others do, is you keeping qualified licensed guys out of work, taking advantage of the apprentice and making it hard for those that follow the rules intent, (not just the literal reading of a rules) to make competitive bids. I completly understand what your saying. Im not the type of contractor that wants to take advantage of his guys, and I dont believe I am.
I think most other contractors would agree that good help is getting harder and harder to find. I havent had any problems lately because Ive found some great guys that do good clean work. But, when I was searching for a journeyman last year and couldnt find a "keeper", I had to hire a sub-par guy with a license, just to keep a good apprentice working and remain in compliance while I continued my search.
Having an apprentice in charge isnt common practice for me, but it was necessary at that particular time. As far as HOW things are done, I decide that as the contractor. If something comes up that i didnt see, the I trust the judgment of the guys on site. But other than that, all they have to do is build it, Ive already designed it for them.

spyder

04-27-2003, 06:42 PM

I could be wrong but I think the law in Massachusetts refers to maintiaing proper ratios of licenses to helpers. It makes not mention of who is in charge of running the work. I do find it odd that a helper would be running a job and not the licensed journeyman. If the helper is eligible for the exam, then he should take it pass it, and then there is no issue.

charlie tuna

05-04-2003, 10:10 PM

i got my journeymen's license while in my second year apprenticship and two years later got my masters when i was in the fourth year of my apprentiship. all though my apprentiship, foremen and general foremen would come to me for answers pertaining to the latest codes. i never ran a job, but many times i knew i was placed on a job to help out the guy running it. and i knew i had to do it without steping on anyone's toes! it really doesn't matter where the information comes from as long as the job gets done per plans and code. after i turned out i immeadiatly started running jobs until i went into business 22 years ago..

jasons

05-15-2003, 10:57 AM

wolfman I am in the same position as your bosses nephew. Do you know for a fact that he has not "put in his time"? Apparently he has some experience or he would have been asking you a lot more questions! Is there anything wrong with what he has done? any code violations?

From the time I was 13 years old, I worked every summer on the job. I mostly just ran conduit and pulled wire but it was under the supervision of a journeyman. By the time I was 15 I worked every summer, every weekend, and most afternoons after school. I worked in plants on grain tanks and in commercial applications. I was still under the supervision of a liscensed electrician. About 6 months out of highschool I was put in the office full time. I was estimating jobs designing the electrical systems for design and build applications, buying material, and running jobs. At the time I had enough time in to take my journeyman's electrical test. Also at that tme the state of Arkansas passed a law that if you were not liscensed you had to be attending an apprenticeship school. I did not take my test and went to the 4 year apprenticeship school instead for the knowledge. I am now a liscensed journeyman wireman.

Most of the employees we have have watched me grow up and have somewhat helped raise me. I am still only 25 years old. We only have 2 employees that are younger than I am. There is a natural resentment to the bosses son (in youre case the bosses nephew). Instead of trying to justify your resentment enjoy working under him. Remember it is the bosses nephew and if he likes you then it may help your status. Your boss is not trying to undermind you he is just giving his nephew some training. Be glad that your boss chose you for the task and give him advice whenever you see that he needs it.

michael nye

06-19-2003, 05:50 PM

I've seen it many times, some in charge guy who blew smoke up some more in charge guys b-tt who did not know what he was doing either, puts some app in charge cause he blew smoke up his b-tt in the first place gets to run the job. I hope the smoke trail was easy to follow. Anyway , if the pay is good and you are getting to work on a good job I would just stand back and watch the fun begin, if not soon it will be later, about 3/4 when this install wont work and that is in the wrong place and so on.

jerod

06-21-2003, 12:05 AM

i went through a five year apprenticeship. the fifth year was for leading jobs and there was never a problem with the journeymen. very valuable experience and we had to do it. i think the board was just getting one more year of cheap labor.

larryl

06-25-2003, 08:08 AM

HEY WOLFMAN,,
I'M A SELF EMPLOYED CONTRACTOR IN THE NEW ENGLAND EREA,IF I WERE YOU I WOULD HANG IN, JUST TO SEE HOW THE FINISH WENT,IT COULD BE AMUSSING,,BUT IF IT REALLY BOTHERS YOU,(WITCH IT SOUNDS LIKE IT DOES) THEN DRAG UP YOUR STUFF,AND MOVE ON,BECAUSE AT THE END OF THE DAY,YOU DESERVE TO BE HAPPY,DONT FORGET THAT IT'S ALL ABOUT YOU!!
REGARDING THE LEGALITY ISUE,=BLA,BLA,BLA,,
DO WHAT YA WANT,,

Fulthrotl

05-25-2007, 01:15 AM

I,m a licensed journeyman with over 10 years experience.
The company I just started with put me on a house along with an apprentice. They put the apprentice in charge of running the job. (He happens to be one of the owners nephew's)
I admit to being really insulted and also amazed at this. Has anyone heard of this? Would you quit if you were me?

than wire pulling lube....

relax and enjoy the ride.... is it "legal"? nope. is it "appropriate"? not to me.
have i been in a similar situation? yep. did i quit? nope.

this goes back a ways.... but when i was a second year apprentice, i was
given the prints to a 125 acre spec industrial complex that was just having the strawberries plowed under, and told "run it, twinkletoes".

my journeyman told me to do it. and then he worked for me for 5 months.
i had to lay it out, put it in, set valults, set gear, order materials, pour
concrete, everything. soup to nuts.

the job was figured for 5 guys, we did it by ourselves. i was being given
foremans's pay, a gas credit card, and was making the same money as
my journeyman, in my second year of apprenticeship.

i was earning it... my journeyman was, and remains, bipolar, and there
were not many medications for that in the late 70's. his personal choice
of medication was an amphetamine referred to as a "black beauty". he ate
them like jellybeans. working with him was like hanging out with atilla the
hun, on crank. not much fun, actually.

after five months, we had 22,000 feet of duct bank encased, all the gear
set, 3 of the tilt ups finished, and our profit margin was 65%. we had no
expenses incurred for the pvc, backhoe, concrete encasement, or backfill.
just two foreman's labor. and i'd lost 30 pounds.

it was an interesting job.... i learned a lot. it was the single best learning
experience i've ever had, on a number of different levels. i learned how
to get it done, do it right, not screw up the underground, and make a profit.

let your muppet give it his best shot. he's gotta learn sometime, and
now is handy. if he screws up, it's not your responsibility, and maybe
you'll get the chance to teach him a couple things in the process.

when i've had apprentices over the years, one of the things i always
do is drop them in the hot seat, and let them run it for a while.

i understand your situation is different. it wasn't YOUR choice to let
the muppet run with it.... but it isn't your responsibilty if it turns out
fuddled up, either.

good luck... have fun.

randy

LarryFine

05-25-2007, 01:54 AM

Randy, despite pulling up an ancient thread, well said.

However, I have the feeling it won't reach the intended party.

Greg Swartz

05-25-2007, 02:05 AM

As an employer when I see somone with 10to 20 yrs and they arent established in a shop a shop rat :D I wonder why ?

cm,
I have never been around a shop more than 3 years.
Why? Shops fold, some get rid of everyone after every job. Sometimes even the best get RIF. I have been in every one of those cases.

Now I own my own shop. Now those people I used to work with and work for want to work for me...

Greg Swartz

05-25-2007, 02:13 AM

I couldnt disagree more, correiaelectric In what code book or state administrative book is this in. I need to see that one to believe it.
Just how on earth could they ever enforce that if it were a rule?
Im an electrical contractor, and if one of my inspectors called me and said, "it seems your apprentice is in charge out here and the journeyman is taking orders from him. Im gonna write you a citation.", he would undoubtedly get an earful from me and from his boss. Inspectors have a hard enough job as it is. And it seems, that "rule" would only be setting them up to fail.

In the state of Colorado, you must pass a test to become a "licensed journeyman." When you sign that paper the first time, you are given a paper that tells you that you are "responsible" for everything you or your apprentices do.

Now... In the state of Colorado, the ratio varies from 1:1 to 1:3 (J-man to Apprentice). If there are 4 apprentices on the job, I don't care who's running the job, who is the inspector going to call??? Not the apprentice!

If I am a Journeyman, and I am responsible for my apprentice(s), I am certainly not goint to take orders from him, and he will not be running the job. Simply put, the Journeyman has a license for a reason.

Allright, I'll get off the soap box now...
Greg

Brady Electric

05-25-2007, 07:25 AM

It is wrong for him to run the job, you have to at least have a city card here. I would probably move own. It could be he is just trying to show you the ropes and then you will move up. Life is too short to work where you are not appreciated and do not enjoy your work. Semper Fi Buddy

George Stolz

05-25-2007, 09:58 AM

I started reading this thread from the beginning, not realizing it was a 4-year-old thread.

These kinds of situations always have interesting backstories - this happened to me, only I was the apprentice and the journeyman was the highest paid employee of the company. He was the first journeyman I worked under, the black sheep son-in-law of the owner, and it was an incredibly awkward situation. He was a good worker and a good person. Sometimes his social skills were lacking, but not so bad that he could not communicate with a GC effectively. IMO, he was simply being persecuted.

I ended the failed experiment at my first available moment. I tested and passed for my Residential Wireman license (a two-year license useless in Wyoming, the state we were working in), and used it as an excuse to get transferred back to Colorado.

He pulled himself up by his bootstraps, took over the Wyoming job and proceeded to work extremely hard and achieve unbelieveable efficiency for little credit. The last I'd heard, he still was ignoring the writing on the wall as best he could.

bradleyelectric

05-25-2007, 10:35 AM

I know that we are responsible for having the correct ratio, but I don't know of anyplace that defines the pecking order. I know usual common sense says who tells whom what to do, but I don't know where that is defined, and don't live in NJ, so don't feel like reading all of your rules. Does it really state that an apprentice cannot tell a Journeyman what to do on a daily basis?

growler

05-25-2007, 12:07 PM