what is the correct way to hook up a generator [Archive]

roger

07-09-2005, 02:48 PM

Southernboys, the safest and proper way is to use a transfer switch, double throw switch, a Gen-Tran (http://www.gen-tran.com/), or Reliance (http://reliancecontrols.com/) type of panel, etc...

You can use W/E = I for the most part, but (and a big one at that) is when considering motor or compressor starting loads, small generators have a very hard time if there are any other loads on at the times these starting loads occur.

Some may not start at all, so human assistance is needed to selectively shed items when some others are needed.

Roger

[ July 09, 2005, 01:55 PM: Message edited by: roger ]

southernboys

07-09-2005, 03:01 PM

Roger I agree but when you dont have enuff time what is the safest and easiest way?

speedypetey

07-09-2005, 03:19 PM

What are you saying, you don't have enough time to be safe?

growler

07-09-2005, 03:31 PM

Roger is absoluletly right about the transfer switch. But I've noticed that such things tend to be in short supply during an emergency. And I'm not going to give any advice that mite get me in trouble. I have herd stories of people that would back feed into the panel on a 20 Amp. double pole breaker of the 220 V output of the generator. The generator will have over current protection. They would have the meter pulled and the main off to make sure that line voltage does not come on and blow that little generator up. Then they would only turn on a couple of 120 V circuits. Frig & lights. Making sure that everyone knew that the power source was very limmited. While I have herd that this may work, it may not be exactly code complient. In war and hurricanes some people do really unorthodox things.

southernboys

07-09-2005, 03:51 PM

Peter whereas you do not have hurricanes in ny we do have them in Al and Fl. As I said I do believe in the ats as a permanent fix however when you have a major hurricane barreling down on you you try to wire it as safely as possible. as I stated I do not want to back feed to poco which is what these happy homeowners will do. I do not have a lot of experience with this stuff and thats why Ive come to this website for the correct information. Thank you for your concern Peter

speedypetey

07-09-2005, 05:09 PM

I do understand your situation. But I must beg to differ. We may not get several a year but we get them from time to time. Down South (NY) it is even worse.
In '99 we got hit hard and many areas were out of power for many days. Please don't think you guys have a monopoly on bad weather and hurricanes.
When was the last time Fla got an ice storm?

That being said, I personally cannot advice any other method besides some sort of transfer switch.
What about a main breaker interlock. Most manufacturers have them, with Sq D having the best selection.

tshea

07-09-2005, 05:55 PM

I agree with all. Check SqD for a generatro sub-panel.
It has a 2p30 for poco feed and a 2p30 for gen feed. There is an interlock so the gen cannot backfeed poco.
It's relatively inexpensive compared to deep frying a lineman.

Here's a link:
Generator panel (http://ecatalog.squared.com/pubs/Electrical%20Distribution/Load%20Centers/Generator%20Panels/QO4/40272-996-02.pdf)

Here's more info:
SqD Backup info (http://www.squared.com/us/products/load_centers.nsf/unid/B3F05CB39B7080AD85256A62006FA416/$file/backuppowerFrameset.htm)

BE SAFE!

[ July 09, 2005, 04:58 PM: Message edited by: tshea ]

jwelectric

07-09-2005, 09:18 PM

The safest and fastest way I know of using a generator during a power outage with out a transfer switch is real easy. Buy some drop cords. Make sure to get #12 conductor cords.

electricmanscott

07-10-2005, 07:15 AM

Originally posted by southernboys:
I do not have a lot of experience with this stuff and thats why Ive come to this website for the correct information. Thank you for your concern Peter You have gotten the correct info and you don't seem to like the answer. I don't care what the situaion is there is a right way and a wrong way to do this. The choice is yours.

George Stolz

07-10-2005, 10:57 AM

Here (http://www.mikeholt.com/cgi-bin/codeforum/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_topic;f=13;t=000524;p=2#000 018) is an idea I had. At some point, I'll draw it out.

I look a look at that QO setup, it looks kinda cheap. :eek:

I wonder if Siemens makes some sort of handle to span from the left bank of breakers to the right bank of breakers. That seems like it would be easier to create, than that cheesey-looking handle alternating two upright breakers.

I'd imagine it would look like a quad breaker, only with the handle stretching to the other side of the panel.

iwire

07-10-2005, 11:10 AM

Originally posted by georgestolz:
I look a look at that QO setup, it looks kinda cheap. :eek: IMO any UL listed transfer equipment is safer than a home brewed set up. Particularly in the control of people not knowledgeable in electrical work.

On the ones I have seen the linkages you see on the panels do not operate the breakers, they simply get in the way so you have to manually operate the breakers in the correct sequence.

Utility main off > move interlock bar > close generator main.

hardworkingstiff

07-10-2005, 12:20 PM

Originally posted by southernboys:
.... I do not have a lot of experience with this stuff ....
sb,

Are you a licensed contractor with insurance?

If not, you should not be hooking up generators and you should not give advice to anyone as to how to connect their generator to their house wiring. You are asking to be sued. If you connect a home without inspection and permit and a death occurred, I believe you may be prosecuted for manslaughter and will serve jail time.

[ July 10, 2005, 11:21 AM: Message edited by: hardworkingstiff ]

hardworkingstiff

07-10-2005, 12:23 PM

jw has stated the safest way for a homeowner to use a generator. Listen to him!

jimwalker

07-10-2005, 01:00 PM

Sorry that Dennis is headed your way but thankfull he missed us.
What i would suggest since you are out of time is to back feed your panel for this time.Turn main breaker off and put tape over it.You need to be sure your the only one that might be in the panel.Put a pad lock on it if needed.This is not a real safe or code compliant way to go.It will keep the frig and lights on.A lot depends on who is in control here.

The way i did this was with a Cutler Hammer panel.
I used a dummy 2 pole breaker to hold a sleeve that has a steel 1/4 inch by 5 inches rod.The dummy breaker goes into space #1 & 3 with it turned on.It does not hook to any wires and only holds the sleeve.I used J B WELD to hold the sleeve.Now into # 5 & 7 i installed 20 amp 2 pole for the generator.The pin slides so that i can only have the generator breaker or the main breaker on at one time.
This now allows me to run a selected load.I suggest keeping the frig on one leg and everything else on the other.This way the motor can start.Will try to take a pic and post it later

[ July 10, 2005, 12:03 PM: Message edited by: jimwalker ]

speedypetey

07-10-2005, 07:03 PM

See, now I DO NOT agree with Jim's last post. In fact I am surprised he wrote such a post on this site.
I think we all know better, even in an emergency!

Other than some sort of transfer or interlock the ONLY safe way is with drop cords.

growler

07-10-2005, 08:41 PM

Pete, are you talking about hooking up an emergency generator or hooking up a generator in an emergency. The two are not quite the same thing. To hook up an emergency generator you start with all the proper permits and buy all the the proper materials ( transfer switch). This is all done in advance of the emergency. During an emergency all power is lost and many businesses and homes are destroyed ( flash light batteries may be in short supply ). It may take a week to get materials and two weeks to get an inspection. That's why they call it an emergency. At a time like this if you were to disconnect the utilities power ( which may be off for two or three weeks ) and feed your panel from a generator, what's the safety issue. You are not going to hurt any linemen because it's impossible ( feed disconnected and taped ). Your house is still protected by the same over current devices. You are just feeding from a much more limited source. You know that you could be in trouble if a child tripped on an extension cord in the dark( provided by you). I would check to see if the local authorities will approve ( with a wink and a nod ). When you get enough people with no homes and no place to go the rules sometimes bend a little. Unless you go the whole nine yards you are not legal anyway and by then the emergency is over.

George Stolz

07-10-2005, 09:03 PM

I would agree with Growler.

With no notice, in an emergency, I too would be tempted to shut off the main, duct tape it, and plug a generator into the dryer, or hardwire it into the panel. In my own residence.

As an EC in the path of a predicted hurricane, I would add a few t/s's to my overhead and wait for the phone to ring shortly after landfall. I would complete all contracted work according to the NEC.

Emergency or not, the same liability issues are there. Keeping your head in emergencies will probably keep you out of court and keep people from getting hurt.

tshea

07-10-2005, 10:45 PM

georgestolz said:
I wonder if Siemens makes some sort of handle to span from the left bank of breakers to the right bank of breakers. That seems like it would be easier to create, than that cheesey-looking handle alternating two upright breakers.
I have seen the "modified" Siemens panels and I thought those were cheesy.
Cutler Hammer also makes a generatro panel with the interlock bracket.

Either way, whatever panel or transfer switch scheme you use, make it safe!

The 4 ways of doing things:
Right way, Wrong way, easy way, hard way!

Do it the Right way and easy way!!

charlie

07-10-2005, 10:53 PM

I like the wrong way. :mad:

Given time, someone will get someone else killed. I am glad I am not working in the aftermath of the storms. The thing about this thread that scares me is that some people that I know are down there getting ready to help with the power outages. If someone slips up, someone will kill one of my friends. :eek:

growler

07-11-2005, 01:04 AM

When it comes to safety I'm always interested. I found a site that you may be interested in ( near the end are the good ones ). Workers Deaths by Electrocution, a summary of NIOSH surveillance and investigative findings. I even found one where a lineman was killed by a portable generator. 90-05 Lineman electrocuted while attaching a 2400 V. power line to a pole mounted insulator. Victim assured by supervisor that line was de-energized , but it was in fact energized by a portable generator. So Charlie tell your friends to always check things out for themselves and never trust a supervisor. I've had the power company try to fire me up twice, but I don't hold a grudge. This site is almost as good as the Darwin Awards. http://www.cdc.gov/niosh/pdfs/98-131.pdf

wpaul29

07-11-2005, 03:02 AM

If it a small generator just run cords to the stuff you need poewered temporaraly.

jimwalker

07-11-2005, 07:10 AM

I was only suggesting a temp back feed to a fellow electrician,not a home owner or customer.Also did qualify it with him being in charge and no body else touching it.
My inter lock does not look cheasy at all.Total time to build that part was maybe 1 hour and cost me $5 plus a breaker i already owned.Will admit it took many many hours to figure out a safe cheap way.I stole the idea from a lift station panel i seen on one of our jobs.

The idea of cords on a floor for days or weeks could be even a bigger hazard.Many of us learned from last year.I been in Florida since 1973 and up till last year never took hurricanes very seriously.Far cheaper to buy a good generator $500 than buy canned food and supplies every time a hurricane comes.

pierre

07-11-2005, 07:25 AM

I understand that Florida has these large storms, and I sympathize, but don't count NY as never losing power.
My office loses power at least 3 times per year and there are many who may lose their power for 1 to several days.

You have hurricanes, we have ICE, SNOW and other storms that will kill our power. We had a rain storm last week that left many buildings with 8 feet of water in the basements - you know what basements are Jim? :D

Last weeks rain storm - I electrically condemned the Hilton hotel, and they will be closed for months, if they even open again (there was structural damage as well). I never saw so much grass, leaves and branches in a 3000 amp service :D

iwire

07-11-2005, 07:32 AM

Originally posted by jimwalker:
I was only suggesting a temp back feed to a fellow electrician,not a home owner or customer.Also did qualify it with him being in charge and no body else touching it.
My inter lock does not look cheasy at all.Total time to build that part was maybe 1 hour and cost me $5 plus a breaker i already owned.Will admit it took many many hours to figure out a safe cheap way.I stole the idea from a lift station panel i seen on one of our jobs.Jim it sounds very cheesy. :roll:

If you want to hang your rear out in the wind for a possible civil action or worse more power to you. :roll:

I prefer to limit my personal liability by following the rules.

Originally posted by jimwalker:
The idea of cords on a floor for days or weeks could be even a bigger hazard.I doubt it and beyond that the cords would be legal.

To any of you that may be asked to Micky-mouse temp power please take a minute to ask yourself a few things.

Is this persons convenience worth risking your money or business for?

Is this persons convenience worth risking peoples lives?

Is this customer who is begging you to just make it work, going to be your friend in court if the stuff hits the fan, or are they going to bury you in court to get more from your insurance carrier?

'Stuff' does happen and we all need to think of what would be the outcome if 'stuff' happens to us. You can be the worlds best electrician and it can still happen.

If you hold an electrical license the courts (IMO) will hold you to a much higher standard than if the work was done by a Handyman.

You have the training, you know the rules, if choose to ignore the rules IMO you have really left yourself wide open to liability.

[ July 11, 2005, 06:34 AM: Message edited by: iwire ]

tshea

07-11-2005, 04:06 PM

Here you go-->

Generators (http://www.mikeholt.com/codeforum/ultimatebb.php?ubb=get_topic;f=11;t=007404)

And it's right here on Mike's site.

petersonra

07-11-2005, 04:27 PM

With the ready availablity of relatively inexpensive natural gas generators, I often wonder why FL residents do not install backup generators.

It seems like a natural fit for FL.

NG service is not usually off in the aftermath of a hurricane or other distrubanceof electrical power.

jwelectric

07-11-2005, 04:57 PM

In my 54 years I have never heard of a person tripping over a drop cord and burning their insides of even dying. Could someone document a case for me? :D :D :D

jimwalker

07-11-2005, 06:15 PM

"
These small generators are not designed to back feed a breaker and energize a complete panel. They are designed to be used with cords. I bet that is why they come with receptacles.

Let’s not forget that should small generator be connected to a panel and some electronic device gets destroyed that the one doing the connections will bear the burden of replacement. How much is a big screen plasma and DVD player these days?

Is this not what the home owner does with 5000 watts, keep the refrig going with a few lights and the TV for the kids? Gosh it is getting hot in here let’s turn on the air for a few minutes. Can we heat up something to eat in the microwave? Call old sparky back this da— thing has blown up and the TV is smoking. I hope he has good insurance. Shut that refrig door before everything spoils, where is that d—m electrician, did you call him. "

Lets take this one step at a time.
1. the one i bought came with a 4 prong twist 20 amp plug.Why did they give me it if they only wanted me to use the 2 duplex receptacles ?
2. they have circuit breakers on the generator and if you back feed or use a tranfer switch you will likely have another breaker to limit load on the generator.There is no reason it should damage anything.It supplies 120/240 at 60 cycles sine wave.
3.home owner wants frig first,then some lights,perhaps a water pump at 240 to fill toilets and shower.
4 should he overload it the breaker trips.Whats hurt by that ? Turn a few things off and reset.
5. unless you been without power for days you might not think like those that have.
6 if one selects there loads there is no reason 5,000 watts can't make life easier in a power outage.
7.The real issue here is the way we connect it.Should someone put a transfer switch or interlocking device then i see no problem.
8. we must understand that a permit does nothing more than get a second opinion on any install.It does not garranty every thing is code compliant.
9. how something looks does not make it safe or unsafe
10. something that simply was not UL listed does not mean its unsafe.Just means it was not tested.

Bob ,how can you call it cheesy without seeing it ? No it was not custom built in a machine shop but that does not make it poor quality.Ever look at the breaker lock outs for a cutler hammer.Now thats cheesy and with a good yank on the pad lock i will pull it right off.

I would far prefer that a back up generator be installed permanently but when you have a hurricane only hours from your doors you do what you must to keep life going.Only reason a lineman would get hurt is because of a non alert person not turning the main off.Perhaps a dissconnect before the meter is a good idea.It could be turned off and pad locked.

speedypetey

07-11-2005, 08:57 PM

Originally posted by jimwalker:
but when you have a hurricane only hours from your doors you do what you must to keep life going.We are talking about Florida. Don't we hear about these impending hurricanes months before they even happen????
This is why I don't buy the "You do what you have to in an emergency" mantra. If you know something bad will most likely happen, you do not wait until 3 hours before it happens to do something about it.
Sorry, just my lil' ol' opinion.

I will say, anyone who blames the electrician for blowing up their plasma TV doesn't deserve to have a plasma TV!
Who's generator is it? I assume it is the property of the homeowner. If they want to run the good $10,000 TV in a state of emergency they should have bought a better generator before the emergency ever happened.
It is not how the generator is hooked up that blows up electronics, it's cheap generators.

[ July 11, 2005, 07:57 PM: Message edited by: speedypetey ]

iwire

07-11-2005, 09:22 PM

Originally posted by jimwalker:
Bob ,how can you call it cheesy without seeing it ? Oh I don't know, I am just strange like that. :roll:

Originally posted by jimwalker:
I used a dummy 2 pole breaker to hold a sleeve that has a steel 1/4 inch by 5 inches rod.The dummy breaker goes into space #1 & 3 with it turned on.It does not hook to any wires and only holds the sleeve.I used J B WELD to hold the sleeve.Now into # 5 & 7 i installed 20 amp 2 pole for the generator.The pin slides so that i can only have the generator breaker or the main breaker on at one time.When 'electricians?' start using JB Weld to modify a breaker my mind tends to think, HEY that sounds pretty f-ing cheesy

I can believe you did it, I can not believe you would post about it then try to say it is better than a factory made assembly.

Again I point out if any of this 'shoemaker' equipment causes a problem you are up the creek without a paddle.

Now I know what your answer will be here.

"Nothing will happen."

Jim stuff does happen and if you ask the people involved all them will say the same thing.

I did not think anything would happen

jimwalker

07-11-2005, 09:30 PM

"We are talking about Florida. Don't we hear about these impending hurricanes months before they even happen????"

No we don't.My vacation got cut short a day because of the limited time we have from when the storm starts to it's landing.Dennis was not ever herd about on July the 1st ,on wed the 6th we learned of it.Often we have only a few days warning.Thousands of generators have been sold in the last month here.People have lost trust in weather men and power companies.Last years problems were mostly over the lack of poles and transformers.Sorry but they could have got them here by semi trucks a lot faster if they had wanted too.Yes there is a danger of back feeders and also in having so much gas sitting around in cans.Last year was the worst i ever seen in 32 years.

The only safe place to be is where they say it will hit ;)

[ July 11, 2005, 08:32 PM: Message edited by: jimwalker ]

roger

07-11-2005, 09:46 PM

Jim, do you think FL is the only state hit by Heavy Weather? (BTW, I loved the album)

Roger

[ July 11, 2005, 08:48 PM: Message edited by: roger ]

speedypetey

07-11-2005, 09:50 PM

Jim, I am not talking about a particular storm.

In Fla it is a given you will have at least one hurricane hit land every year. So if you are scrambling to get a genset hooked up because you heard a storm is a comin', you are a foolish procrastinator.

roger

07-11-2005, 09:56 PM

Originally posted by speedypetey:
In Fla it is a given you will have at least one hurricane hit land every year. So if you are scrambling to get a genset hooked up because you heard a storm is a comin', you are a foolish procrastinator. Petey, I'm not sure about every year, (it seems as though the 90's were the Carolinas decade) but I whole heartedly agree with the rest of your post.

Roger

jimwalker

07-11-2005, 10:05 PM

"I can believe you did it, I can not believe you would post about it then try to say it is better than a factory made assembly."
Bob,where did i say it was better than factory ?
I tried to buy something factory made but nothing was available.I had very limited space and no place to put a transfer switch.What i did is copy of a similar arangement i seen that was factory.It very much is fool proof.There is no way both main and generator breakers could both be turned on.Actualy i should contact CH and maybe sell them my idea.The same basic idea might work on some other panels.Only down side is i lost 2 spaces.

electricmanscott

07-11-2005, 10:17 PM

Originally posted by speedypetey:
Jim, I am not talking about a particular storm.

In Fla it is a given you will have at least one hurricane hit land every year. So if you are scrambling to get a genset hooked up because you heard a storm is a comin', you are a foolish procrastinator. My thoughts exactly.

Kind of reminds me of the dummies up here that have to rush out to get a snow shovel before a big storm and the news must of course report that the stores are out of shovels. It snows all winter for cryin' out loud. Are these nuts buying disposable shovels?

[ July 11, 2005, 09:20 PM: Message edited by: electricmanscott ]

iwire

07-11-2005, 10:23 PM

Originally posted by electricmanscott:
It snows all winter for cryin' out loud. Are these nuts buying disposable shovels? You mean I can use them more than one storm? :o

jimwalker

07-11-2005, 10:26 PM

Last year woke a lot of us up,me included.We never thought it might be weeks to get power back.Sams club had generators on flat carts ready to go and some bought 4 or 5 at a time.I seen at least 10 passing me on the way in.They can not stock enough of them.We are likely in for another very bad year.

iwire

07-11-2005, 10:31 PM

Jim I am not going around with you on this.

You are trying by any means you can think of to justify poor plaining and hack work.

For Pete's sake go back read your own posts. :roll:

stud696981

07-13-2005, 11:25 PM

On a side note here, many of you wonder why people back feed a panel for a generator. Well today I was at the supply house (Electrical Supply House, not Lowes or Home Depot) and there was a DIY in front of me looking at a transfer panel for a generator. He was complaining about the price and the sales person stated, "I don't know why you really want to buy one of these, most electricians simply buy a two pole breaker and backfeed the panel, you just have to remember to turn the main breaker off." After the customer left (Yes he purchased the two pole breaker) I talked to the sales person about this. He stated he new it was a violation of NEC, but went on to say that most licensed EC's do this, especially on their own houses and many EC's have told him that transfer switches are a waste of money for residential jobs! While I don't agree with this, I just wanted to point out how this is a good example of why people get into the backfeeding method.

jimwalker

07-13-2005, 11:38 PM

Maybe i am off base here but would it not seem wise that linemen would assume a generator might be backfeeding and safeguard themselfs ? Far to many stories of this happening after a hurricane.The guy was stating something that i have had fellow electricians tell me they do themselves.I did not want to risk killing anyone so i built what i was told some mfg make to do this.When i asked about anything available they just looked at me funny.All that is needed is a way to mechanically prevent main and gen being both on.

George Stolz

07-14-2005, 12:25 AM

Originally posted by stud696981:
...the sales person stated, "I don't know why you really want to buy one of these, most electricians simply buy a two pole breaker and backfeed the panel, you just have to remember to turn the main breaker off."...Gotta love the ever-helpful guys chock-full of bad advice! :)

stud696981

07-14-2005, 09:26 AM

This supply house normally doesn't give advice either. I think the problem here was the fact that this counter guy has heard a lot of licensed electricians doing this so in his opinion this was ok since these other guys do this and they are licensed.

It's kind of like an inspector calling out a violation that you have been doing for years. Just because you were trained by a licensed EC doesn't always mean everything you do is right.

growler

07-14-2005, 01:25 PM

Does'nt anyone think that a generator can be used for more than power at Joe's house. Many businesses that are necessary for the public don't have back-up generators. If you can get a lage generator on site in time to save the milk , meat,medicine even ice. Do you really think everyone is going to hook up a transfer switch for a piece of equipment that may only be in use for a few days ( temporary ). The utilities get "disconnected" and power restored as quickly as possible. The purpose of a transfer switch is to make sure that the utilities are not back-fed. Some of the Florida power companies tell you this is not the best option but please to open main breaker ( I say disconnect power cables ). At a home you are not likely to encounter a real emergengy unless someone has severe medical problems and can't be moved. I have never needed to hook up a house to an emergency generator. If it's a back up generator you have plenty of time to get the correct materials, if it's a matter of money the cheap ba_____ can stay in the dark.