North Carolina Electricians Acceptable Practice?

[buloni]

Hello,

I am not an electrician but looking to the professional licensed electricians for guidance and knowledge. If I am overstepping by posting please let me know and feel free to remove the posting.

I acted as my own GC for a family room addition. All went well until...
An electrician locally was recommended by the person I hired to frame the room.

I spoke to the electrician over the tele and checked out his license online. All appeared fine. He quoted me a price for the work after I gave him the details of the room and my needs and we came to an agreement.

When it was time for electrical, two helpers came to initiate the work. I asked if they were licensed and they said no. I called the elect and asked him if he was coming to supervise and he said he would be by.

Days past... and the two men wired the room... did the breaker work and connected the electrical work for a new AC/Heat unit in the attic.

Final electrical inspection came... failed for a couple of small infractions the first time... (not labeling heat unit for circuit capacity and incorrect AC working cover outdoors) Re-inspec found incorrect breaker in garage (too big 50 should have been 30) and incorrect breaker on heat unit.... 50 and max was 40 and would work with 30. Again they had to return.

I called and left messages asking for the licensed electrician to come.... both during the work and after the failing inspections.

Until today have not met the licensed individual.

Secondly, we had agreed to a set price for the electrical work, and when the billing statement arrived he added... about $800.00. I am concerned about the entire practice. I am a licensed professional (registered nurse) who would never let someone work under my license unless I supervised.

I read the governing statutes and it seems the behavior is inappropriate.
I spoke with the framer who recommended him and he said ALL the electricians send helpers in NC.... Is this acceptable??

Thanks for your time.
Feel free to contact me at my email

(Moderator’s Note: Edited to remove email address. If you wish to send an email message to this person, then first send a Private Message via this Forum, and ask for the email address.)

[ December 03, 2005, 09:50 PM: Message edited by: charlie b ]

[speedypetey]

I'm not sure if replying is acceptable but here goes.
IMO it is standard procedure to send electricians and helpers without the owner ever showing up on the job. This of course is for smaller jobs and shops with several men usually.
In most areas the owner, the one with his name on the side of the van, and who's name the insurance is in, is the ONLY individual who needs to be licensed. (I think Ca is an exception to this rule, not sure).

Now, this is not to say that it isn't in the best interest of the owner to check out the jobs done by his men. But if he hires, and keeps, a journeyman he damn well better trust that he can do his job WITHOUT supervision.
I did this for years. My bosses rarely ever saw any of the smaller jobs I did. Even additions and large renovations. I just submitted my time and material sheets for him to either bill or check against a contract price.

On the issue of several red tags and call backs I really have no comment. Except that there is no excuse for it from the description you gave.

[mdshunk]

This is a DIY thread, that has been posted on several other boards this evening. Apparently, she didn't see the:

* This NEC® Forum is for those in the electrical and related industries.
Questions of a "How-To" nature by persons not involved in the electrical industry will be removed without notice.

on the front page of this site.

[infinity]

I agree with Petey. Most contractors around here would send out a crew to perform small jobs like yours. You would never see the license holder except maybe for the estimate if he does them himself. In general most states require that only one person be licensed and the others work under that person. They are of varying ability. Some are very seasoned electricians, others are really not electricians at all but laborers. Let's hope that your inspector did his job thoroughly since the license holder obviously didn't.

Regarding the $800 extra. If you had a contract then extra's should require a written extra work order. If you feel the charges are not justified than you should speak to contractor and find out what his reason was for the extra work. You should have agreed to any extra's prior to him doing the work. Most states have laws protecting the consumer. Here in NJ all jobs over a few hundred dollars require a written contract. An EC could get a hefty fine for working without one.

[charlie b]

Originally posted by mdshunk: This is a DIY thread. . . .I do not agree, and I will allow it to remain active. There is a difference between doing the work yourself and acting as your own general contractor.

[infinity]

Originally posted by mdshunk:
This is a DIY thread, that has been posted on several other boards this evening. Apparently, she didn't see the:

* This NEC® Forum is for those in the electrical and related industries.
Questions of a "How-To" nature by persons not involved in the electrical industry will be removed without notice.

on the front page of this site. MD I would disagree that the OP was of "how to nature". This is simply a question about common electrical practices, not on how to do a task by a DIYer. I find answering the questions raised by the OP with in the forum guidelines. However if a moderator agrees with you then I will concede that it was the right decision to lock this thread.

[mdshunk]

Originally posted by charlie b:
Originally posted by mdshunk: This is a DIY thread. . . .I do not agree, and I will allow it to remain active. There is a difference between doing the work yourself and acting as your own general contractor. If that's the case, every Tom, Dick and Harry that watches "Flip This House" on television and decides to to a rehab will be able to post here. That will do nothing but dilute the content of this site with question from folks with minimal trade skills or experience. This person's primary occupation is as a nurse, and has acted as her own GC for a room addition, no doubt, to save a few bucks. I think it's a reasonable conclusion that she doesn't intend to be a professional family room addition contractor. I believe it's bad decision you've made, Charlie, but it's yours to make.

[jeff43222]

As to the original question, it really all depends on what the rules are in your jurisdiction. Where I live, what you described would be illegal. Anyone doing the kind of electrical work you described has to have at least a state journeyman electrician license or be immediately supervised by someone who does. The company has to have a state EC license, as well. I don't have any employees, but if I did I certainly wouldn't send them out on jobs unless they were properly licensed or supervised.

From what I've read of other posts from people in NC, it sounds like it's legal where you live. You might want to contact the licensing authorities there and get a more definitive answer.

[ December 03, 2005, 10:23 PM: Message edited by: jeff43222 ]

[tshea]

Rreading the op, 3 things come to mind.
1. OP says helpers. They both could have been journeymen or 1 apprentice, 1 journeyman. Not real clear in OP.
2. Inspector found additional violations on 2nd visit. He should have found all on first visit.
3. What is explanation for extra $800?

[charlie b]

Originally posted by mdshunk: I believe it's bad decision you've made, Charlie, but it's yours to make. If it was, then it wasn’t my first. And I do not hold anything against you for saying so. But I will ask you to take note of the fact that she did hire an electrician, and did not try to install the electrical stuff herself. What she is asking us to help her understand is whether or not she got a bum deal.

Side note to Buloni: Your original post gave no hint of your gender, other than a statement of your profession. If I guessed wrong, by addressing you above as "she" and "her," I beg that you will forgive the presumption.

[buloni]

Thank you all for your thoughts.
I appreciate all of them.

Just fyi I came here and to another site with these questions.

I am NOT a do it yourselfer. I did NOT post at that forum initially because I was looking for a professional response from a professionally licensed electrician preferably in NC or someone who was familiar with the territory.

I am so sorry my posting here and originally in the contractortalk.com forum has led to this interaction. mdshunk instructed me I was to post at DIY and that I was not welcome at the contractors site. I followed his instructions only because I was hoping to hear from the professionals he told me post at DIY! DIY is a forum for people trying to tackle things themself! I never do that. I hire the professionals for all the work that gets done in my home!


As a professionally licensed person, I too belong to forums where the majority of people who discuss topics are licensed professional nurses, yet every now and then we will get an individual looking for guidance... NOT HOW Too's... but instead looking for acceptable practices within a specialty area or physical territory. We, as professional Registered Nurses, are happy to offer that information so we can educate the public.

I am trying to find out the acceptable standards within a community I relocated to a year ago. I have dealt with electricians in NY and in Florida and have always had positive experiences. I have ALWAYS met the electrician I hired...

Nevertheless, I have dealt with a situation new to me and I am reaching out to the professionals for answers.

I do not want to RUIN someone's life or tarnish a professional license unless there is just cause.

Again, thank you for allowing this thread. It has been quite helpful.

As for journeymen etc... as mentioned... the two men did not have any title. I asked. One has worked for the electrician for a year or so... and the second guy was brand new. When I initially asked if either was an electrician (or actually the electrician) the response was... are you kidding... we are minimum wage workers. "I wish I were the electrician."

Oh well... I think you all made it clear as to the acceptable standards for electricians in NC.

And too mdshunk I am sooooo sorry you think I am wrong to post here.. however I have received numerous responses at this site and in my personal email box from members of this site. They have all educated me and guided me to appropriate websites to further educate myself. Thank you to all.
God Bless
Fran
Fran A Bulone
Registered Nurse First Assistant
Mom to Joseph 6 yrs old
Waxhaw, NC
Owner & Moderator PFAPA YahooGroup
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/PFAPA

[jeff43222]

Although she isn't the intended audience of this site, I don't think the OP was out of line. The main prohibition is that we aren't supposed to help DIYers do electrical work, and she clearly is not trying to do her own electrical work. She didn't ask any DIY-type questions. She's only trying to find out if the pros she hired are doing things according to the law. I see no reason we can't answer such questions.

My advice would be to try and contact the inspector for this job. There's a good chance the inspector will know what the rules are concerning who has to be licensed.

I'm surprised more people don't ask me about my own license status. I always carry my licenses with me when I'm working and am happy to show them to anyone who asks, but very few people ever do. On Monday I'm starting a kitchen remodel for a senator, and he never asked me, either. Then again, I imagine it wouldn't be all that hard for him to have me checked out. :D

[jbwhite]

This may be a bit late, but I am a licenced master in NC.

I too found it strange when I first moved here that there is no licence required on the job site when work is being done. (execpt in a couple counties that have adopted stricter laws)

When I was in PA a master was needed to pull a permit, but at least a joruneyman had to be onsite. In NC, the licenced master never even has to see the job site. He does have to sign for the work, and is liable for any faults.

[sheldon_ace]

Sadly, in NC you do not need a licence to perform the work. You only need to carry a licence to pull permits. I think it is a very bad thing for both the electrician and the customer. Us professional electricians have to deal with lower wages, and the customer has to deal with shotty workmanship.

There is not reason that that addition should have not passed everytime. A jouneymen electrician should be able to wire an addition in their sleep, and not cost the homeowner or contractor more money in reinspect fees.

Also, inspector should have caught red tag issues the first time around

hope I could help

gerry

p.s.- as for quoted price, the contractor has no right raising price unless extras that you approved were involved. I would fight it

[jeff43222]

It's sad that some places still allow electrical work to be performed by unlicensed, unsupervised people. That's a bad deal all the way around, since the EC can send any yahoo to do the work, which will probably result in yahoo-level quality. And if a license is only needed to be an EC, an electrician who is not an EC will have to settle for yahoo-level wages. Sure, this system is theoretically cheaper for the consumer, but is it really better if it results in bad work (or worse) that winds up having to be redone?

The law here requires no more than two helpers per journeyman/master on site, and they must be supervised. I don't think it's onerous to require at least 33.3% of the workers to be licensed. But the contractors' association here thinks it is. They claim that there's a shortage of licensed journeymen and have lobbied for a new license classification ("residential wireman") that would be easier to obtain than a journeyman license. The new license would require two years of experience, whereas four years is required to sit for the journeyman exam. The huge hole in their argument is that the local IBEW chapters have literally hundreds of licensed journeymen on the bench. I'm sure the contractors' association wants the new license classification because it would be easier to obtain such a license, and anyone who had one couldn't demand journeyman-level wages.

[roger]

This is the reason I like working in Asheville, we have a one to one ratio, and home owners must pass a simple test (atleast they used to) before they can pull a permitt.

Buloni, if you haven't already, you can file a complaint or atleast check into whether you have a true reason for a complaint here (http://www.ncbeec.org/)

Roger

[charlie tuna]

sounds to me as though the contractor expects you to pay for the costs of the call backs! i would pay him only the original agreed upon price, and tell him to provide you with writen change orders that where authorized by you, the owner. and i'm assuming you did not ask for any changes?

[wyatt]

As a side note the easiest way to get the electrical contractor out to the job is call him/her up and say would it be okay to pay you in cash today? and they should come right out. :D :D
But realy, this is normal practice in NC. It differs from EC to EC on how much they check up on there guys and how much they trust there work. There are a lot of good crew leaders out there that don't have a license and do good work. Some home owners feel that they are Paying the EC and expect him out there pulling the wire on there job. As for the extras no comment don't have all the facts.

[ December 04, 2005, 09:34 AM: Message edited by: wyatt ]

[jimwalker]

It's sad but true ,customers are being charged for qualified,licensed workers but get helpers with no license and often undertrained.In this case all you can do is call the building department to see if they followed the law.If they were within the law then only thing left is the $800 issue.If there is no contract verbal or writing for the extra $$$ then simply don't pay it.Now should you perhaps find out a licensed worker was required then you should perhaps hire a lawyer as you might not owe him anything.
As has been stated some areas do not require licensed workers and the master often never even sees the work.Really wish this would change.

[jbwhite]

jimwalker, I agree with you to a degree about the need for more strict licencing in NC. As I said before it was different other places I have been. It is not my policy to send someone to a job who I do not believe can do the work required. I also check up on them in the field all the time, and If i were called by a customer who had concerns I would get there as soon as possible even if I had to make an evening appointment. What I said above is simply that, that is the law in this state.

Some counties, I now Wake is one, (that is where Raleigh is) have adopted more strick laws. The state has no as yet.

rogers made a good point in suggesting that the OP file a complaint with the state board. They do investigate every complaint no matter how small.

Here (http://www.ncbeec.org/complaints.htm) is there link again. If the OP has any concern he/she should inquire.

As for the 800.00 in extras, no enough information was given for me to voice an opinion. Purhaps that was the reason for the OP becomming upset, and the others issues just added fuel to the fire.

[buloni]

Hello again, (LONG response)
Thank you for ALL the insight to the needed changes in the law here in NC and some other places. I honestly see so many issues in COMMON with the nursing laws! LOL We all need changes to maintain quality service to our customers!

As for a contract, we had a verbal contract to do the work. We discussed exactly what I needed, (number of outlets, a cable outlet and telephone outlet as well as wiring for the new heating unit) We also discussed to opening for fan/chandelier and 4 recessed lights. We agreed to a set price. Not sure if I should mention that?? I also asked at the same time if he could add 4 recessed lights in my existing home. He said yes and gave me a price. I added the two together and said this is the price. He said yes.

I was shocked with the bill when it came. He itemized everything we had discussed and instead of the flat fee for the addition and the 4 recessed lights it totalled $800.00 more. I am going to try my best to get that lowered to the original amount he quoted. I do not want to ruin my credit score ... though! I asked for a written contract and he said I did not need it... and he would simply send a bill upon completion.

As for the law... I read the info at the site you gentlemen have sent me. I do find some of this challenging because the written law defines (as I understand) the elecrician should be supervising at the least...
Quoting from TITLE 21 NCAC 18B

.0907 RESPONSIBILITY OF LICENSEES AND QUALIFIED INDIVIDUALS


(b) "Gross incompetence" refers to such lack of knowledge, supervision or technical competence as to correspond or create risk similar to the consequences of gross negligence.


(c) “Supervision” within the meaning of G.S. 87-43 refers to that degree of attendance, participation and oversight which is necessary and sufficient to ensure that the project is carried out in a workmanlike manner, with the requisite skill and that the installation is made properly, safely and in accordance with applicable codes and rules. Supervision means active onsite review of the work by a qualified individual while the work is in progress.


.0908 MALPRACTICE

(c) Where work is carried out by employees of the licensee, failure to provide supervision of such employees, whether by consistent absence from the workplace or jobsite, or as demonstrated by the failure of the work to comply with this rule, also constitutes malpractice on the part of the licensee.

87-41.1. Definitions.
As used in this Article, unless the context requires otherwise:
(1) A "qualified individual" is an individual who is qualified in a specific license classification as a result of having taken and passed the qualifying examination required by this Article for such a classification and who has been certified as such by the Board pursuant to G.S. 87-42.
(2) A "listed qualified individual" is a qualified individual whose name is listed on a license issued by the Board. A listed qualified individual has the specific duty and authority to supervise and direct electrical contracting done by or in the name of a licensee of the Board on whose license the qualified individual is so listed.
87-43. Electrical contracting defined; licenses.
Electrical contracting shall be defined as engaging or offering to engage in the business of installing, maintaining, altering or repairing any electric work, wiring, devices, appliances or equipment. No person, partnership, firm or corporation shall engage, or offer to engage, in the business of electrical contracting within the State of North Carolina without having received a license in the applicable classification described in G.S. 87-43.3 from the State Board of Examiners of Electrical Contractors in compliance with the provisions of this Article, regardless of whether the offer was made or the work was performed by a qualified individual as defined in G.S.87-41.1. In each separate place of business operated by an electrical contractor at least one listed qualified individual shall be regularly on active duty and shall have the specific duty and authority to supervise and direct all electrical wiring or electrical installation work done or made by such separate place of business. Every person, partnership, firm or corporation engaging in the business of electrical contracting shall display a current certificate of license in his principal place of business and in each branch place of business which he operates. Licenses issued hereunder shall be signed by the chairman and the secretary-treasurer of the Board, under the seal of the Board. A registry of all licenses issued to electrical contractors shall be kept by the secretary-treasurer of the Board, and said registry shall be open for public inspection during ordinary business hours.

87-47. Penalties imposed by Board; enforcement procedures.
(a1) The following activities are prohibited:
(7) Engaging in malpractice, unethical conduct, fraud, deceit, gross negligence, gross incompetence, or gross misconduct in the practice of electrical contracting.


Anyway... You all have been EXTREMELY helpful.
I am going to try and speak with the owner and discuss all of this before reporting him... He sounds young and maybe it is his first business... etc... I would hate to go ahead and report him immediately without an opportunity to correct the situation at hand...
God Bless,
Fran
Fran A Bulone
Registered Nurse First Assistant
Mom to Joseph 6 yrs old
Waxhaw, NC
Owner & Moderator PFAPA YahooGroup
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/PFAPA

[jimwalker]

You are being more than fair to him.Somehow i think most of whats upseting to you is the $800.He can not hurt you credit score untill gets a judgement and you refuse to pay.If your phone conversation does not resolve this then i suggest you take him to court as well as report him.Problem with unwritten contracts is that details get confused.Perhaps he forgot what he quated you.As to the work it seems that it was inspected,failed,was corrected,thats about normal even if it had been the master doing the work.Most likely he will back off on the $800.And tell him about this forum.We welcome new members.

[jbwhite]

Originally posted by buloni:
As for a contract, we had a verbal contract to do the work.......He said yes and gave me a price. I added the two together and said this is the price. He said yes.Sounds like you were thinking bid, he was thinking estimate.

I always write bids, and sign them. I give estimates over the phone.

[charlie tuna]

check your state's lean laws. i would pay the original amount discussed. at the same time i would send him this payment in a registered letter including a letter explaining the reason you are not intending to pay the extra $800.00. i would not make an issue about having unqualified personnel on the job since there is no law against it. you left yourself in a bad situation by not having a contract of some sort in writing. a verbel contract is binding, but it will be decided who is correct by an outsider (judge) listening to each side. he will probibly suggest splitting the $800.00 at this point because even his time in small claims court will cost him $400.00 of his time............... that will be up to you to decide????????

[jimwalker]

I been to court a few times. It usually comes down to who the judge believes is totally honest.After that him or her can make an easy choice.The letter sounds like the right choice along with in the bottom left write in "payment in full" Willing to bet he cashes it.

[JROD]

It would be in both of your best interests to resolve this issue without a 3rd party.
Did you discuss your concerns with the EC during the installation? Did you inquire as to the overage with the EC? If so, what was the reasoning for the extra $800?

It is important to note that in NC estimates are binding.

[charlie b]

Originally posted by charlie tuna:I would pay the original amount discussed. At the same time i would send him this payment in a registered letter including a letter explaining the reason you are not intending to pay the extra $800.00. I think this is a good way to proceed. But I'll add a caution: Anything you say, and especially anything you put in writing, can be used against you, if this dispute ever does make its way into a courtroom. So the less you say, the better.

Keep it simple; keep it short: one sentence, with no explanations or attempts at justification. Just say that the enclosed check represents payment in full for the agreed upon price of the job.

[stud696981]

I'm willing to bet the estimate over the phone was a Time and Materials job, but not clearly specified as T&M. If I was the EC on this I would have clearly said this is a T&M job, this is our hourly rate, and this is the approximate cost, but it can very so again the price is an approximate. Once arriving on the job the home owner would have been given our basic contract to sign which would clearly state the above.....thus no confusion when the bill comes.

The scary part here is that they installed two incorrect breakers. We all make mistakes, but it sounds like for a job like this they made too many and may not really be qualified to be doing electrical work.