Ungrounded Outlets

[sparky46514]

Afriend called me the other day and wanted to know what his options were regarding ungrounded outlets.Outlets had been changed from 2 prong to 3 prong sometime in the past and now he was being told that they had to be changed back to 2 prong.I went over and checked things out a little and found no gfci breakers or gfci outlets.The main panel is a Federal Pacific 100 amp.What are his options?

[dan55]

Replace 2 prong outlets with GFCI receptacles and mark the faceplates GFCI protected and ungrounded. Just replace the first one in the circuit,but mark the ones you replace with regular recepts. The other option is to fish new wire or have some surface conduit or wiremold and pull new wire.

[jxofaltrds]

His outlets are grounded. They do not have an equipment ground.

Mike P.

[dan55]

According to sparky they are ungrounded.

[jxofaltrds]

How is that possible?

Is he saying he is not using the "grounded" conductor?

Mike P.

[don_resqcapt19]

This is a problem with the terminology. The receptacles have a grounded conductor but not a grounding conductor. If my proposal to change equipment grounding conductor to equipment bonding conductor was accepted, this problem would go away. We would say that the receptacle is not bonded and it would be very clear what is being talked about. With the current code the word "grounded" is used in different ways and does not always mean the same thing.
Don

[dan55]

I think your both right. Key word ungrounded. My interpretation of what happened was that there was a old two wire system and somebody changed out the two wire recepts to three wire "grounded" recepts. I am assuming the wiring is old romex with no ground wire or knob and tube.

[sparky46514]

You are correct Dan.Thank you for all your help.Friend contacted AHJ.Was told that nothing needed to be done as house had 100 amp service and no upgrade was needed.Friend also contacted E.C. that did "inspection".E.C. backpedaled saying that he did not mean that his inspection items were required but were suggestions.

[hillbilly]

You could just change the 3 prong grounded receptacles back to 2 prong non-grounded. It may be a little inconvenient for the user, but is within code.

[jxofaltrds]

Sparky

There is nothing wrong with the 2 prong system.
It will be less expensive to change to the old 2 prone than to install GFCI's (and marking as having no equipment ground).

I would however install GFCI's in the areas now required to be protected.

Mike P.

[racraft]

Yes, there is nothing wrong with a two prong system, as long as users limit themselves to two prong devices. The problem is that some homeowners will use adapters and either leave the ground unconnected, or connect it to the cover screw thinking it is grounded, or worse yet, cut the ground off the plug.

However, in some states it is illegal to sell or install two prong outlets. Massachusetts is one of those states, where you must either correct the wiring or use a GFCI appropriately marked.

[bennie]

Take a look at your portable appliances in the kitchen, that will be using the grounded counter top receptacles. How many can you find that have a three wire cord?

Does anyone know why the manufacturers of portable metal appliances do not install a three wire cord?

Why does your TV have a two wire cord?

[brian john]

bennie:

That is a good question, you brought up the toaster issue with us a few days ago, checked my toaster and no ground. the can opener is double insulated. Microwave is grounded, and that's all the appliacces I have.

[racraft]

I have never seen a non-commercial toaster with a three prong cord. The only appliance I have that does have a three pronged cord is my microwave. All my others (regular toaster, toaster oven, blender, coffee maker, mixer, food processor, electric frying pan, and electric knife) all have two pronged cords, with most of them polarized if I remember correctly.

I thint that three pronged cords are avoided whenever possible because many people do not have proper outlets for the cords, and would probably defeat the third wire one way or another.

[jxofaltrds]

"However, in some states it is illegal to sell or install two prong outlets. Massachusetts is one of those states, where you must either correct the wiring or use a GFCI appropriately marked. "

If there is no equipment ground---- how does the GFCI better help you?

Have the(y) outlawed two prong electronic devices? IE your TV?

Mike P.

PS Correct the wiring?

[ July 17, 2003, 09:14 PM: Message edited by: jxofaltrds ]

[gwz2]

The GFCI still offers protection on a 2W circuit, such as the toaster.

If, for some reason, a person sticks a fork into the slots ( to retreive some toast ? ) and touches an ungrounded conductor portion of the circuit ( the heating element ), and at same time touches a metal sink which is grounded to the grounded circuit conductor at the panelboard through ( NEC 2002 250.50 ) the water piping system, the GFCI will see an unbalanced grounded circuit conductor current back on the normal wiring system in comparison with the ungrounded conductor and trip the GFCI if greater than 6 MA.
It is a safety issue.

[pak]

the gfci works by reading a imbalance between hot and neutral this adds protection it does not need a ground to trip.

[maniacwhiz]

It could go either way.

1) Leaving the 3-prong receptacles. I think it is a good idea to mark them 'no ground' or 'caution, ungrounded'

Plugging in an applicane with a metal body can transfer a good ol' shock because there's no ground.

2) Changing back to 2-prong receptacles.

Homeowner will furnish an 2-to-3 adapter and think it's a permament installion. In most cases, they never secure the spade to the plate screw, grounded or not. Or they may break off ground prong, ruining a perfectly good plug.

Worst-case sceneario, cut the plug off and splice a 2-prong plug to the 3-wire cord.

At a residence, I encountered a carpet installer using a carpet seaming iron with #14-AWG with the original plug cut off. He spliced a #18-AWG lamp cord into the iron cord. He also went for the ulimate Johnny Dangerous: masking the splice with the 3M's blue painter's tape the size of my fist (heating much?). :eek: Yes, the plug was nice and brown (originally white!) and at an angle when plugged. :eek: Oh, yeah. Don't forget that carpet seaming irons can go up to 900 watts. :eek:

[ July 28, 2003, 12:34 AM: Message edited by: maniacwhiz ]

[david]

Three pronged
1. Battery Charger for the wheel chair
2. Electric Skillet
3. Portable electric heater
4. Microwave
5. Refrigerator
6. Power washer
7. Portable air compressor
8. Airless paint sprayer
9. UPS for the electric door opener
10. Table saw
11. Miter saw.
12. Electric bed
13. Electric door opener
14. IPPB Breathing treatment
15. Oxygen concentrator
16.

[ July 29, 2003, 01:51 AM: Message edited by: david ]

[iwire]

Originally posted by david:
9. UPS for the electric door opener
What a good idea. :cool:

[gwz2]

For some violations see:

250.114:
(3)a.
(3)b. info tech.
(3)c. tools (?)

[thomasf]

Bennie asked

Does anyone know why the manufacturers of portable metal appliances do not install a three wire cord?

Double insulation ?
What is the real reason Bennie ?

Tom

[bennie]

Hello Tom, pleased to meet you. I thought no one would ever ask about the 3 wire and 2 wire cords.

Reason number 1. There is still many homes with 2 wire receptacles, customers will not buy a 29 dollar portable appliance, that requires 29 hundred dollars to connect.

Reason number 2. The three wire cord implies the appliance is grounded. The replacement of 2 wire receptacles with 3 wire, also implies the receptacle is grounded. A customer who gets injured of killed by an appliance that implies a ground and does not have one, will win any and all product liability law suits. The marking of 3 wire receptacles notifying the user it is not grounded is a liability disclaimer not a warning of being unsafe.

No small kitchen appliance is double insulated. Look at your toaster and toaster oven.

[jxofaltrds]

Bennie

Now you have me confused. "The marking of 3 wire receptacles notifying the user it is not grounded is a liability disclaimer not a warning of being unsafe."

I thought you said earlier that 2 prone outlets were safe?

Now it sounds like you are saying something else.

Mike P. :confused:

[bennie]

Sorry Mike, my writing skills suck. Let me try to rephrase. The marking of a 3 wire ungrounded receptacle is for liability disclaimer purposes, it is not a warning label for safety purposes. The absence of a ground wire is not a safety hazard.

Micro-wave ovens have a 3 wire cord for electrostatic bleed off. Any ground fault inside the PC board compartment will become a LL fault and burn clear before the breaker will activate.

[ July 29, 2003, 07:52 PM: Message edited by: bennie ]

[jxofaltrds]

Bennie

I strongly disagree. Your writing skills are exellent. I just thought you were throwing one of your "curve balls"!

Mike P.

[templdl]

In a kitchen or bath area I personally would recommend replacing the outlets the GFCI outlets as dan55 for safety. In most other parts of the home the appears to be little benefit to using GFCI.
However, have you given this some thought. Because more and more people have computers, sound systems, as well as other electronic equipment which like to be grounded in that they are supplied with a 3-wire plug for equipment grounding. It may not be for safety but to have a ground reference so that the electronics will operate reliably. Grounding of electronic equipment has become a big issue large facilities they often apply isolated equipment grounds. Isolated ground wires may not be important in a private home but a common EGC may be important.

[racraft]

It is extremely important that computers and computer equipment have a good ground, especially older computers. Certain printers, for example, rely on the difference between the ground signal (O volts) and the high signal (5 volts) to differentiate a logic 0 from a logic 1. Without a common ground, the printer may not see the signal.

[wocolt]

Don:
"If my proposal to change equipment grounding conductor to equipment bonding conductor was accepted, this problem would go away."

This is the same change Mike Holt was talking about on some of his tapes, .. coincidence ?
Did they vote on the change yet...?? Don

WmColt

[bennie]

wocolt: What is the problem? I don't understand.

[wocolt]

palmer gonna have to a little more specific than that.

WmColt

[jtb]

How about calling the Grounded conductor the Neutral like the average Joe in the field?

1. Not technically correct, but will never be confused with grounding conductors.

2. Neutral can be redefined as the center of maximum standard potential of ungrounded conductors at service. This would work for single or 3 phase, etc.

3. Don't yell at me! lol :D

[bennie]

jtb: Common sense is not allowed :D

I want to correct my previous statement about all conductors landing on the neutral bus, being neutral conductors.

Clarification...All conductors on the neutral bus, and ground bus, are ground conductors.

They are;

Neutral ground conductor.
Equipment ground conductor.
Earth ground conductor.

All of these constitute an electrical circuit. The earth ground, and neutral ground conductor, are normally load conductors. The equipment ground conductor is a circuit conductor, due to being capable of carrying load current in a fault situation, and provide means for filters to function.

A bonding conductor may be one of, none of, or all of the above.

Eliminate the "ing" and "ed", call it as it is, not what is speculated, that can be, may be, or has been.

[ July 31, 2003, 12:32 PM: Message edited by: bennie ]

[jtb]

I want to correct my previous statement about all conductors landing on the neutral bus, being neutral conductors. Why? Isn't white a 'neutral' color? :D :eek:

[bennie]

jtp: I said no common sense allowed ;)

The neutral should be white, the earth ground conductor can be bare. The equipment ground conductor can be any color the decorator chooses, in some cases.