How much Theory do Apprentices need [Archive]

bphgravity

01-09-2005, 07:56 PM

I am an instructor for the Electrical Council of Florida. We are currently reviewing our curriculum and one of the major issues that has come up is the level of theory we teach to our 2nd year apprentices.

Many on the board feel that a good portion of our theory section can be cut from the program so more "field" related topics can be explored. The argument is that most electricians do not need the level of math and related formulas that are assoicated with AC theory in the field.

Others feel that reducing the theory portion of the curriculum "dumbs" down the program and effectively reduces the program to an "installer" program instead of an "electrician" program.

The bottom line is that our clients are the local electrical contractors. If they do not supply the apprentices, we don't have a program. This means we are essentially at the wim of their wishes. They are more interested in basic training and product identification for their employees instead of theory based courses. Basically, they want us to make the apprentice more cost effective more immediately, instead of setting up the employee for long term education and development into a journeyman.

I am personally conflicted about the situation. I feel both sides have merit. On one hand, many of the apprentices drop out during or right after the second year because of the math and complex theory during this year. Many become frustrated and feel the program is not advancing their career learing things like solving problems with resistors in parallel with capacitors and inductors verses learning how to bend conduit and tubing. On the other hand, theory is an essential part to a electricians understanding of the fundementals of electricity and things like conduit bending is supposed to be learned through on the job training and not the apprenticeship program, however contractors are too busy and short handed as it is to stop and train new employees properly.

What are your thoughts? Have any other instructors here seen this issue with the programs you work for? We are a fairly young program, only 6 years old. The prgram is pretty much what it was from inception and could use some adjustments. We are very concerned with student drop and contractor participation. Do you feel we should cater to our customer or stick to our principles and beliefs of what an apprenticeship program should be?

petersonra

01-09-2005, 08:10 PM

If you are asking for opinions on what to add, I'd suggest some instruction in reading typical industrial control schematics. many electicians I have run across do not seem to have a clue where to even start. This is frustrating to me. Some seem to be so dense they do not even know they don't know. At the very least you could give them enough knowledge that they would know when they were in trouble.

jtester

01-09-2005, 08:51 PM

bphgravity
I've instructed in apprenticeship programs for many years, and had the same questions. I believe the program should push the better students but should also give the average guy a chance to learn as well.
You don't pick up the toughest stuff you have seen, you learn something less. Only by seeing things that push your understanding do you grasp more fundamental ideas.
The challenge is to the teacher to make mundane ideas like parallel resistances more interesting. Incandescent lights on a 120 volt circuit are parallel resistances, and can make a boring subject seem real.
Jim T

harborrick

01-10-2005, 12:01 AM

As a electrical contractor,I would like to see instructors give hands on teaching.I think hands on is the best teaching tool on the market.
Also explain the basic theory of what they are learning.
They need to learn how to prevent themselves from getting hurt.
Just some input.

pierre

01-10-2005, 07:13 AM

Bryan
This is one of the most serious problems our industry faces today. I am a private instructor, I own my company. I am also an electrical inspector, with part ownership in that company. So I get to see our industry in two different perspectives. I can tell you both of the perspectives make me nervous as to the future of our industry.
1. Most of the field "INSTALLERS" that I see as an inspector are just that, installers. Most of these installers want a good education, but lack in a place to find it.
Factors:
1. Time
2. Cost
3. Quality of training: trainers, material, training of the trainers.
4. Being able to show the long term benefit of training.

PRIDE!!! training for pride in our industry as well as their own work.

5.Training in work ethics

Yes the contractors do not want to pay to see their men learn about resistors, and they want this training to take the least amount of time.
Basically they are looking for "robots".

I do not mean all contractors, but a majority of them. As this affects their bottom line - which I cannot agree with. Remember I was a contractor, and taught my men. That is how I actually got into training as a business.

My training business is a small company. I only tain in the fashion that I see will benefit the industry. I was told that I would not see success as my program was too expensive and took too much time.
I do not see all of the men, but my classes are full and over a period of time, I have seen good results and the men that have come through my program are better for it. In every class I teach, I emphasize PRIDE IN OUR INDUSTRY, and PRIDE IN ONESELF, as well as the topic.

With that said, here is my suggestion.
Have an apprentiship program that puts out well rounded ELECTRICIANS.
Then have continuing education to keep the men abreast of new and current issues they need.

There is great need in training of all aspects. There is also great need in finding labor for the immediate present. It almost seems to clash, but take a step back and review the different possibilities that are at hand.

I would agree to a short program to get the students out in the field, then having continuing education mandatory to stay in the field.

It will not be easy, but anything that is worth it is worth the effort.

Good Luck!!!!

Proud to be in this industry
Pierre Belarge

Ed MacLaren

01-10-2005, 10:56 AM

How much Theory do Apprentices need? To me, that is the same as asking this question. -

How well equipped should our apprentices be to undertake the lifelong learning that is now required to keep up with the rapid changes in our industry?

I believe that this is an important topic and I hope it will get lots of attention here. I agree with most of the points made above.

It has been my observation, during more than thirty years of teaching apprentices, that the individuals that struggle with practical issues, such as grounding/bonding, are the same ones that don't have a good understanding of basic principles like Ohm's law, series and parallel circuits, and power, etc.

For example, I've seen electricians that couldn't change a dual-voltage motor from 115 to 230 volts, because the didn't understand series and parallel circuit principles.

I was lucky to work in a pretty decent apprenticeship system where the registered apprentice was expected to spend six weeks of each year of his four-year apprenticeship in school. His employer was expected to deliver the "skill component" on the job, while we were responsible for delivering the "knowledge component" of his training.

We use a modular program where the Construction Apprentice and Industrial Apprentice do a somewhat different "profile" of the available modules. There is a test for each module, and when the prescribed modules are completed, the apprentice is eligible to write the "Interprovincial" journeyman exam, which is recognized country-wide.

This is a three-way agreement/contract between the apprentice, the employer, and the Apprenticeship Division of our Dept. of Education.

The apprentice is "released" from his job for the six-week training period, is paid by the Unemployment Insurance system, and gets his job back, providing his employer has work for him.

If anyone wants more details with regard to program content, etc, I can supply them.

Ed

petersonra

01-10-2005, 12:19 PM

personally, I'd prefer to see electricians get trained/licensed in whatever area they choose to specialize in rather than in anything with wires on it.

there is a huge difference between residential, commerical, and industrial work. There is also a huge difference between wiring alarms, power, cable, telephone, industrial controls, etc.

it seems to me that many apprenticeship programs focus on construction work, and I see that as an area that may well die off some, as prewired modules get used more and more rather than having things done in place.

bphgravity

01-10-2005, 12:31 PM

I appreciate all the responses. I, like Pierre, also give state approved continuing education classes to contractors to fulfill their CEU license renewal requirements.

I am often shocked how little theory is known by the students who attend my courses. Some of these persons are excellent contractors that do fantasic work and provide a great service to the community, yet some still think current only seeks a source to ground and that current will only take the path of least resistance. Its basics like that which I feel are essential to understand.

I too wish that every student that walked into my apprenticeship class and my CEU course would be of the attitude that theory is important and that understanding the fundementals produces a more valuable electrician in the future. That's usually not the case.

I am kind of out of the loop on the ultimate decision that will be voted on by the board, but I do have very liberal requirements on the exact subject matter I teach. So even if the theory portion of the program is removed from the mandatory requirements, I would still be permitted to explore the topics as a supplement.

peter

01-10-2005, 04:04 PM

For one thing, apprentices certainly aren't going to learn theory out in the field. And the only Code they will learn is from red tags.

The idea of an apprenticeship is not to produce an installer but an electrician. It's like the difference between a doctor and a nurse. [Nurse =~ installer.] [Maybe I picked this idea up went I went to the UCSD Medical School. :cool: ] The doctor has to know not on the how but also the why. Same with the electrician.

In an event, in order to get a Journeyman's Card, you will have to pass the test and to pass the test, you will have to know theory and the Code. So I hope your board will favor the teaching of theory -- and Code.

~Peter

pierre

01-10-2005, 06:12 PM

From Peter

"And the only Code they will learn is from red tags."

And from what we read here, it may not always be very accurate. :(

From Ed
"It has been my observation, during more than thirty years of teaching apprentices, that the individuals that struggle with practical issues, such as grounding/bonding, are the same ones that don't have a good understanding of basic principles like Ohm's law, series and parallel circuits, and power, etc."

I also agree very much with this statement.

The question begs.... how do we correct this situation?

Pierre

peter d

01-10-2005, 06:52 PM

I think that fudamentals are an absolutely critical and essential part of any electrical training program. The theme of this thread seems to be the distinction between "Installers" and "Electricians."

I don't think a deep dive into theory is necessary, and it can be done without complex math. Real world example are easy to integrat into the teaching to make them understandable and applicable.

A good well-rounded apprentice education program should include all of the following:

 Ohm's law Power formulas Series Circuits Parallel circuits Combination circuits 3-phase current, voltage, and power calculations Delta circuits Wye circuits Basic motor types Basic ladder diagrams and motor control
Obviously, I am biased but I don't believe that that a good electrician can be made without a good foundation in theory. As Ed said, those who don't understand theory will be the first to stumble over troubleshooting.

I am opposed to any "dumbing down" of the requirements to become an electrician. It's wrong and it's suicide for this industry. Granted, some people will argue that it will just make more work for those with aptitude, but it will be at the expense of pride, craftsmanship, and wages, IMO.

roger

01-10-2005, 07:16 PM

We offer incentives for new helpers to enter into apprenticeship training.

There are some, who once their feet get wet, won't stop digging for knowledge, and then there are the life long installers that is a creature of habit. They do because they were taught to do it that way, yet never knew why.

I second Peter d and will borrow his list.

Ohm's law
Power formulas
Series Circuits
Parallel circuits
Combination circuits
3-phase current, voltage, and power calculations
Delta circuits
Wye circuits
Basic motor types
Basic ladder diagrams and motor control

What I irritates me is when some will try to keep education from, or discourage those who are willing and eager to learn.

Roger

bphgravity

01-10-2005, 07:29 PM

Our Second Year curriculum follows basically like this:

History of Electricity
Electrical Safety
Electron Theory
Ohm's Law
Series Circuits, Parallel Circuits, Ser/Parallel Circuits
Energy and Power
Batteries
Conductor Properties
Voltage Drop
Magnets and Magnetism
Generation of EMF
DC Motor Principles
Transformer Theory
AC Fundementals
Inductance, Capacitance, Impedance
Ser/Par Circuits with R, L, and C
Power Factor
Meters and Testing Equipment
Telecommunications

This is all done over a period of 54 classes, broke down into 6 periods of 9 classes at three hours each.

When its all said and done, that only equates to 162 hours of class time in one year, which also equates to one work month. So in effect, an apprentice only gets about 4 months of educational class time in 4 years.

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01-17-2005, 10:32 AM

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static

01-20-2005, 01:54 PM

:eek:

caj1962

01-27-2005, 03:43 PM

As an instructor for over 10 years now I agree with several of the posters comments. Whether you call the apprentices or students, whether you are teaching at a local college or in some union hall, or non union location. Do we not have an obligation to those that come to us for knowledge? When I was an apprentice I had journymen who would not give me the time of day, let alone teach me something, in fear that someday I would take their job. At other times i had guys that would answer the stream of questions without hesitation. I learned from both of these types. The first made me go other places to get my answers. The second fed my curiosity in the trade. We as professionals need to remeber we are training our replacements. Do we want to give the world guys who look a a circuit an say 20 amps number 12 wire every single time no matter what. Or do we want them to say " if this circuit is 250 feet should't we think about voltage drop?" While I to can understand the contractors wanting people in the work force, why send the to school at all. Why not just put them in a truck and call them electricians and the them learn from there mistakes. Oh that may cost a little more in the loong for the tests will come before the lesson in that case. I recently had the great privalage to teach a safety seminar to a local manufacturing plant. There were guys who had 30 or 40 years in the trade. there were guys who I had worked with on other jobs. There were even a few of my older students. I was amazed at the lack of common knowledge of eletricity that these guys had. There supervisors from the home office were even more amazed that these people dd not know whether they were hooking test equipment in series or parrallell. If guys don't know the basics of electrical theory then are they really electricians? Maybe ask some of the local contractors if they need some refresher courses. Maybe their apprentices are coming and asking for help on homework or discussing school and some of the old dogs are feeling threatened. Please do not stop teaching theory. Your program will suffer greatly in quality of students. Your local area will suffer in the long run because the people they will be hiring in a few years will be installers instead of electricians.
Ok I am done now and will give up the soap box to the next guy.

srblx

02-14-2005, 09:04 PM

The problem seems to be that training by qualified persons seems to be hard to find. A few years ago I was attempting to get my electrical maintenance degree. It seemed my instructor new very little about the course he was teaching.
My friends this is not a problem limited to just the schooling. Most contractors have no idea how to train their personnel in the field or even explain the basic principles to the employees they hire.
I believe that all electricians trying to run their own business should take an instruction seminar before being allowed to get or renew their business license.

rattus

02-15-2005, 08:23 PM

From someone on the fringes of the trade:

I would like to see electricians have the equivalent of a 2 year program in Engineering Technology, that is, an ASET. But we know that will never happen. But, for the few that do acquire that level of education, they will be well prepared to take on the more difficult jobs and will be more likely to be successful ECs or instructors.

[ February 16, 2005, 09:18 AM: Message edited by: rattus ]

benfranklin

02-23-2005, 10:38 AM

I think I can answer the question simply put! If an electrician does not understand the theory of electrical current flow then how can they possibly understand or rationalize why the code prohibits excessive numbers of conductors in raceways? Or, why we separate short circuit and ground fault protection from overload protection in motors? I can see it now, undersized tap conductors, improper insulation on conductors for certain uses etc. Voltage drops in unacceptable values for proper efficiencies.

Oh there are plenty of reasons for teaching an electrician electrical theory. Problem is? There are not enough instructors who know the theory themselves to teach it properly, with meaning so it sinks in!

As I have said to just about every class I have taught, being an electrician is a profession and not a job. For that reason, you must learn things that you may never use practically or now, but as some juncture, they will mean something to you.

Also, since it is a young person's business do to physiology, there is a time when you get paid for what you do and there is a time you get paid for what you know!

jerod

03-07-2005, 02:12 AM

theory theory theory, its kinda like boot camp. my instructor was a retired physics professor. i don't believe the class room is for hands on training. the journeymans responsibility is hands-on and he can only be succesful after theory theory theory. contractors do not allow the time or money for training anymore it is there loss. if you can make it thru four hours a day 3 times a week for four years and you have built your journeyman relationships your ready for anything the day you turn out. residential wireman may not be able to use there theory day in and day out so it could be a waste of time. i suggest getting into industrial apprenticeships you can go anywhere from there. i have been trying to get an apprentice for nine years. supervisor feels there is no need. i will retire next year.

Ed MacLaren

03-07-2005, 07:39 AM

In my experience, the best route for most aspiring electricians is an apprenticeship program that provides mandatory "in-school" sessions scheduled throughout the apprenticeship period.

Generally, only the very motivated student will be able to handle all of the theory "up front", that is, before starting work at the trade.

Our apprenticeship program is a three-way agreement/contract between the apprentice, the employer, and the Apprenticeship Division of our Dept. of Education. (Government)

The registered apprentice is expected to spend six weeks of each year of his four-year apprenticeship in school.
His employer is expected to deliver the "skill component" on the job, while we were responsible for delivering the "knowledge component" of his training.

The apprentice is "released" from his job for the six-week training period, is paid by the Unemployment Insurance system, and gets his job back, providing his employer has work for him.

When the prescribed Modules of our program are completed, the apprentice is eligible to write the "Interprovincial" journeyman exam, which is administered by the Apprenticeship people, and is recognized country-wide.

How much theory? Our program content is determined by an Apprenticeship Advisory Board, made up of representatives from the industry - contractors, journeymen, inspectors, and engineers.

Our apprenticeship program was able to cover more content in 24 weeks (6 weeks x 4 years) than our Community College's 40 week full-time program.

Most of the guys were better able to relate to the theory concepts after having been exposed to the practical aspects of the trade.

Ed

[ March 07, 2005, 08:04 AM: Message edited by: Ed MacLaren ]

caosesvida

03-11-2005, 07:33 AM

I agree.

Without the concept of how electicity works I don't think you are safe working in the field. Grounding seems to be the most misunderstood or ignored part of the installers mindset.

I agree that the student has to want to learn, and that I think is the teachers responsibility, at least to help or spark imagination or thinking. Once you have done that the student will want to learn more and continue.

The hands on should come from the employer, without it, the concepts are much harder to understand without the reference of the real world.

You have to have employers who want high end electricians not robots.

A lot of factors and variable to figure in,
Its a tough balance between making money,
( unfortunate by product of being able to have a class to teach) and striving for a high level class.

sirdle

04-22-2005, 07:25 PM

The great men and women in the history of science (Ampere, Bacon, Boyle, Brahe, Coulomb, Fararday, Edison, Fleming, Franklin, Galileo, Galvani, Gilbert, Curie, Henry, Herschel, Hooke, Huygens, Joule, Kelvin, Kepler, Leibnez, Newton, Ohm, Tesla, Volta, Watt, Westinghouse, and Wren among many, many others) were all primarily experimenters.

They fiddled about and worked with their hands. They thought about what they saw, tried more experiments, and finally summarized their observations with theories.

If theory is to be taught in the classroom, that is the way it should be taught. Lots of hands-on experiments. Lots of fiddling around. And finally a formula or a conclusion.

To go on about magnetic lines of flux... and inductance... and right-hand rules... is incredibly boring. Add math on top of it and it becomes super, incredibly, boring. But bring in a motor that can be taken apart and stared at... now we're getting somewhere. How come that wire goes around and around that metal thing? How come the current through the motor winding is different than through the heater coil we looked at last week? We measured the same resistance, didn't we? How come we can't blow through this solenoid valve when it is energized? Why are there so many pins on that relay and how come it worked at 24v but not 120v?

There is great beauty and wonder in the natural world, and theory can help us to understand it, but only when the theory is developed in the proper context. Otherwise we are just memorizing the results of somebody else... that's just totally itch!

izak

04-23-2005, 04:00 AM

as an Apprentice, who started on the Union side, and somehow ended up enduring and Apprenticeship on the Non-Union side, it has been quite difficult to adjust..

contractors in the south, (arkansas anyway) do not want an apprentice that thinks for himself.
The more he/she knows about the code, or theory, the more things he/she can realize that are being done WRONG

and it happens all the time..

of the ... six contractors i have worked for in the last 4 years, NOT ONE wants to hear a damn thing about bonding bushings, or de-rating, or box fill. what they want is INSTALLERS who can get it in, make it work, and finish the job before they loose money..

I agree with EVERY person in this forum that wants to teach theory, code, mechanics, or any other thing even remotely related to the trade, but where i am at, knowledge of theory and code is more of a hindrance to your employer's viewpoint than they are a benefit

derf48

04-26-2005, 12:11 PM

The first question that must be answered before any curriculum is established is "Are we a trade or are we a profession". If, as many contractors want us to believe, we are only a trade, then you will be training installers and that contractor should charge less per hour for that person to be on the job. If we are training professionals, where proof of knowledge is required for employment (licensing) and continued education requirements are enforced to renew that license, then a curriculum full of theory is very important.

An apprentice program is trying to prepare students to become proficient in using the NEC in their daily job. For anyone to correctly apply the NEC an understanding of theory is vital. Remember to read the code requires a grade 17 level of electrical installation and electrical theory. I personally believe that no one out there has this ability, but with a grade level of 7 or 8 in electrical theory a "electrician " will be severly handicapped.

Talk to your contractors again. Listen to your contractors. What do they really want? What do they really need? Listen to your students, try to understand if what you teach has any real life practicality. Audit your program and your teachers. They both must be accurate and able to hold the majority of the students attention. Certain areas of theory may be given less attention, such as inductive and capacitive reactance, and certain areas may need to be brought to the real world, such as series and parallel circuits.

The most underpaid and under appreciated person in this world is a teacher. Then to be a teacher in an industry that puts a premium on speed of installation and in many cases discourages knowledge, requires special training and expertese. students are always going to complain about being "forced" into learning, especially if we are teaching in the 1980's. A dynamic teacher is only part of the solution, sometimes students remember the dynamics and not the lesson. The students attitude must also be in the right place for a good learning atmosphere, and contractor support is vital in this area.

If your program is dependant on the contractors, then you must provide a product that they will support or you will have no students. Remember that education is a process, ongoing for the rest of your life. So your first task is to educate the contractors on the benefits of a good well rounded electrician compared to a installer. Show them how it will affect their pocketbook, and maybe they will learn the real benefits of education.

Good luck to you as you try to settle one of the oldest problems known to man, how much learning is enough.

Fred Bender