I'm not a violent person...but

[electricmanscott]

Some days you just want to grab somebody by the throat. :evil:

Tell me is this sounds like a gouging or not. Honest answers only.

Wired two receptacles from existing circuit. One for wall mount plasma tv other for stereo equipment.

Show up for job , a/v guys are there already. My truck is new, spotless
and NOT leaving a puddle of oil in the driveway like their truck.
Put down drop cloths.
Move a few things in garage.
Trace two circuits in area of work to see wich is not to heavily loaded.
Make a few notches in plaster to get wires through.
Get my receptacles installed.
Patch holes in garage.
Put stuff back where it belongs in garage.
Clean things up.
Done. Chat with homeowner who wants advise on a fixture for huge foyer.

Total bill...$240.00
2 hours @ $92.00
1/2 hour travel time @$46.00
$10.00 for materials.

Mother effer thinks this is too high. This is an upscale home where a guy is having a several thousand dollar tv and several thousand dollar surround sound system installed. I am a professional working in his home where he is getting top notch service and I am thanked with this insult. GRRRR :twisted:

[fc]

Price is very reasonable. You know some people will complain no matter what you charge. If you told them $150.00 they would say it's to high.
There is always a guy that would do if for less.
Customers like that you may not want. Stick to your prices.

[bdarnell]

Scott:

Your labor rate for your area of the country seems to be in line with what I've seen. You would never get that around here, but that's not the issue.

I agree, stick to your pricing. You might lose a few jobs to the trunk slammers, but you didn't want those jobs anyway.

[George Stolz]

I'm no contractor, but your pricing is right in line with us too, I believe.

"I didn't get rich by writing a bunch of checks." - (Fictional Bill Gates from 'The Simpsons')

[tshea]

Price looks fair. Some people have pre-conceived ideas on how much a "little" job should cost. Sometimes if the customer is not to hot headed you can explain what you did and why and some of the reasonable ones understand. Most people don't understand electricity and have no appreciation for how it gets from "the box" to the "wall."

We did a service call to remove a broken bulb from a socket from a closet light. Minimum call 1 hr. $70 at the time. Customer called back PO'd to high heaven. Said she was an ER nurse and didn't make that kind of money, etc. I calmly explained that that the hospital charges $400/hr and that is totally unreasonable (her words). The fee is not for the electrician but for the company who in turn pays the electrician, insurance, truck, bonding, marketing, overhead, office wages, etc. After educating her she paid.

Then again some people are just cheap ba******!

[jeff43222]

I run into this from time to time, too. I think the gripe stems from the fact that customers see a one-man operation as one that has very little overhead, so that $92/hour rate is almost all profit (excessive, in their eyes) as far as they are concerned. The other thing people seem to object to is paying for travel time. They figure that since they don't get paid for their commute, you shouldn't, either. And then there's the snob factor. Some people in the tonier parts of town seem to have the attitude that those of us in the trade are just a bunch of knuckle-dragging blue-collar cretins, and thus we don't deserve to make decent money for the work we do.

Other that the normal expenses they don't take into account (insurance, advertising, licenses, self-employment tax, etc.), they often don't grasp that it's not usually possible to line up a nice block of jobs because you have to leave slack in the schedule for the inevitable snags that pop up and eat up time. Small jobs like this are also an inefficient way to line up work. (Many contractors won't take small jobs for this reason). Let's not forget those "free" estimates many of us do. All of these things have to be taken into account when we set our rates so that at the end of the month, we have enough money to pay our own bills.

As for the original question, I think your price was plenty fair. You really patch your own holes? I refer people to an excellent drywall guy for that kind of thing.

[electricman2]

I am a one man shop and this may not work for most contractors but I have a policy that every customer gets one free job. That is if you dont like the price, fine the job is free, just dont call me again. So far I've only had one taker on the offer.

[tshea]

I am a one man shop and this may not work for most contractors but I have a policy that every customer gets one free job. That is if you dont like the price, fine the job is free, just dont call me again. So far I've only had one taker on the offer.

Hey electricman2 I got a job here for you... :D

Some of our jobs are one timers. I don't think I'd stay in business long if I gave them away...

[jeff43222]

If they don't like the price, they probably aren't going to call you again, anyway. You might as well get paid.

[charlie b]

All I can offer is the suggestion that you (all of you) be a bit more patient and understanding of the customer's point of view.

BUT WAIT A MOMENT! Perhaps before I explain my statement, I should say that I think the price is reasonable for the work performed. I just had some work done for similar rates.

Now look at the (wealthy, perhaps) customer's viewpoint. He spends $6000 for a fancy TV, and what does he get when it is up and running? A fancy TV, that's what!

Then he spends $240 for two receptacles, and what does he get? Well, the house already had dozens and dozens of those things, and this is just two more. What's the big deal, it's just two more? You can buy them at a grocery store for crying out loud, and pay no more than $3.00 each. And now I have to pay $240 for two of them? That's absurd!

No customer is ever going to understand that. No customer is going to appreciate the time and effort needed to learn the trade, the costs of conducting business in this trade, or the time it is going to take to install something as simple and common as receptacles.

So what do I think you should do? Just be patient. No grabbing by the throat. Tell every customer up front basically the same thing my contractor told me: (1) The hourly rate is $xxx, (2) Until the job is started, there is no way for him to be certain what obstacles will be encountered, how many items on my list he can get done, or how much time the job will take, and (3) Since I had a budgetary limit, if the job starts looking like it will require more than that budget, he will discuss options with me (e.g., which tasks are higher priority, and which can be left for another day), before exceeding that budget.

p.s. Don't give away the work. You did it, you should get paid for it.

[Mike03a3]

To be honest, I think the basic hourly rate is a bit on the high side, and I live in a very expensive area. Not unreasonable, just a bit high.

However, having said that, I don't think the total is much out of line, especially as you describe what you did. My only real question is if you provided a quote before you started and if you exceeded it. I would expect (if I was on either side of this transaction) that there would be an agreed scope of work and price before I started. If there was, screw him.

In any event, I'd be thrilled if I could find someone around here who is willing to do small jobs at a reasonable (not cheap, just reasonable) price and looks at himself as a craftsman, as you apparently do. Around here it's hard to find anyone for small jobs that isn't unlicensed, unqualified, or both. And when you do find someone, few take any pride in their work or clean up after themselves. I've had a couple I had to ask to leave my home to limit the damage. I've had others ask to borrow MY tools because they didn't have everything they needed to do the job in a workman like manner.

When I, or my neighbors, find someone who does good work we tend to hang on to them because they're so rare. We sure don't quibble over every penny, I'll take the quality every time as long as it's not totally out of line. (And I've found the really good ones tend not be be. They are never the cheapest, but they're not likely to be the most expensive either. Perhaps they're pricing to get repeat business?)

[pierre]

I have what I call the "5% rule".

5% of the people will love you no matter what you do -break windows, etc...

5% of the people will hate you no matter what you do - bend over backwards.

It is the other 90% you will need to work with.

So do not sweat over this person. Keep your prices as high as you can afford to, as this will also provide you with some profit which is what makes a company successful. Anybody can make a living in this business, making a profit is not as easy.

P.S. There is no customer ever, ever, ever worth losing sleep over. Forget it and move on - life is too short..... If Benny were here, I bet he would agree.

Making a profit means you can pay your company bills during downtimes, you can go to class, you can afford a new truck/tools/insurance/ paying help/ vacation/ kids college/ medical bills/ peace of mind/ higher selfesteem/better tools, I think you get the idea.

[j_erickson]

Scott, price is fair. Did you let him know rates beforehand?

[growler]

That is the reason many contractors use flat rate fees. Do you think the customer would like it better if you only charged $50 Pr. Hr and take 4 hours to install the receptacles. You should have ask the customer if they wanted to purchase the extended warranty.

[luckyshadow]

Sounds like you did a professional job at a fair market price. Even patched holes and cleaned up. You can't please all the people all the time .. so just worry about the ones you can please!

$240.00 for 2 Receptacles - Lets check the math ......

2 - 120 volt receptacles
2 x 120 = 240
Yep the math works out just fine :lol:

[Awg-Dawg]

Some days you just want to grab somebody by the throat. :evil:




Please turn on your CAPS,it is hard to understand you and it seems as you are "talking" to us. :) Your #'s are fair,the guy just wants something for nothing(don't we all).

[satcom]

Scott,

We do a lot of circuit extensions, the average price for one 15A extension circuit in old work is $179, plus permit fees, not high, not low, they had 2 circuit extensions, total $358 plus permit fee.

We never work T&M, on any residential work, one bottom line price, on the contract, no breakdown of labor, or material, customer signs, and approves the contract, before any work begins, any changes, or additions, a change order comes out to be signed, all payments when work is completed, we have a lot of repeat customers, and get a lot of recommendations.

[jeff43222]

I just looked at a job yesterday that will involve a new circuit/receptacle for a new built-in microwave. Panelboard is in the garage, right next to the kitchen. Total price I quoted was $253 (includes permit fees of $40.50), and I figure the job will take two hours at most. I just got an e-mail today from the homeowner asking when I can do the work.

It often boils down to perspective. Whenever you charge T&M, the final bill will be a surprise. Sometimes, I've had people tell me how reasonable my bill was, sometimes I've had them ask for a breakdown of costs and try to negotiate with me after the work is done. The only way to keep them from complaining (too much) is to talk about costs upfront.

[Minuteman]

The only way to keep them from complaining (too much) is to talk about costs upfront.

I agree. I give a bid on most jobs. :idea: A variation of a T&M not to exceed that I did more as a one man shop, but still do on small jobs, is I give a ball park. On your job I would say, "Oh, there are somethings that I can't see in the walls, I have to find a circuit that will hold the new equipment, I will patch my own holes. I figure somewhere around $200.00 - $250.00 more or less." Sometimes they will say, "try to keep it down around the $200.00". And I will say,"I'll try, but it will be what it will be". It works... most of the time.

[tshea]

I have some customers who are very hard of hearing. When you give them a ballpark of $200-$250, inevitably all they hear is $200.

[electricmanscott]

The story goes....I was working with the a/v company but billing the homeowner directly. It was a show up and do it kind of job. I did not even see the guy till I was leaving. Had I gone out and estimated the job, then sent a contract and then gone to do the job it would not have been worth it.
For the type of job and the "class" of people (for lack of a better word), this should have been an easy one. I think it just turns out that the guy is a cheap bastard and as has been said already any price would have been bitched about.
Since the a/v guy called me the day before they needed me and I bailed him out I think we should have a talk about how to sell my services to the customer BEFORE he throws me to the wolves.

[hardworkingstiff]

Did you get paid? By whom?

[charlie tuna]

many times the customer doesn't realize how simple some of our work is -- why was it simple -- because of our past experience and training. before you started he may have had some major questions of how this job was to be accomplished??? then watching you -- and everything falling into place --- he begins to realize "hay, i could have done that!". but you see he didn't have the knowledge and experience to even know how the job was to be accomplished. he was probably mad at himself -- and taking it out on you. strike him from your customer list after you are payed in full!

[Gaffen99]

I have been coming in contact with a lot of people lately who feel that we all should work for free. I just gave someone a price for a job recently and was asked "Why so much?" It is bad enough that I priced the job lower than usual to get the job, and thats the answer I get.
By the way the price was $400.00 to install a pole light outside, with the light supplied by homeowner.
Am I crazy?

[jeff43222]

You aren't crazy. Most people who are employees have no idea what is involved when they hire an EC. They only see one guy doing some work and think that all the money they are being charged is going straight to his pocket.

The people who understand (and complain the least) are the ones who are self-employed. They know that there are costs to running a business.

I just got a call back for a job that was very similar to Scott's OP, with my pricing in the same ballpark, and she wanted to hire me right away. Turns out her husband (sole breadwiner in the household) is self-employed. Maybe it's time for me to re-focus my marketing toward self-employed people.

[templdl]

A)I've found that prices are always going to be too high, that I have to justify to them why I have to charge as I do.

B)That my time isn't worth as much as theirs.

C) That I have discovered how they acquired that wealth that they have and it certainly was not by sharing it with others.

Most may be employed by someone else, don't have a clue as to how much I've invested in my equipment, that the time it takes me to drive form place to another as well as my shop and office time are not billable hours that I am not doing in my free time for enjoyment, that I have to pay my medical insurance, employment tax (twice what they pay for SS) business insurance, cost of stock, retirement with no employer contribution, etc, etc.

If someone is self employed it may be better to separate yourself from the business and claim that you are an employee and that the charges are determined owner based upon customary rates but that the owner would be available in the evening.

[briselec]

The story goes....I was working with the a/v company but billing the homeowner directly.

That sort of arrangement often causes problems. I think it's because the customer sees you as an extra over what he was planning to pay. It would be far better if the a/v guy included the electrical in his price.