Making your breaker box look pretty

[vilasman]

How many of you take the time when you dress out a breaker box to make it look more organized then just a jumble of wires going every which way?
I changed a 30 space, 150 main breaker, to a 30 space main lug yesterday in about 3 hrs and I was thinking about the time I was taking to make my neutrals all line up, and making symetric bends and curves in my blacks as they go into the breakers.
I was smart enough to label each wire with the size breaker it was on as I took it apart, I wasn't smart enough to label each with wire according to the panel schedule as I took it apart so now I have a pretty large house to ring out.

[briselec]

I have this fixation that a really neat switchboard is the sign of a professional.

[flick]

I try like heck to do a neat job too. I know the only one who'll probably see it is the inspector, but at least I know it looks nice even though the owner probably could care less. And really, it doesn't take extra time, in my opinion, to do a neat job.

John

[jeff43222]

I like to make mine pretty, too, when it's feasible. Most often, though, I deal with ancient wires of varying lengths and wind up having to pigtail a fair number of them just to be able to reach the breakers.

[stud696981]

I always make my jobs looks neat as well. I was taught as an apprentice to always make the job look as neat as possible and in turn the inspector will tend to be less picky when he sees a professional job.

[growler]

I try for basic neatness in residential but not industrial quality. I don't trust old panel schedules so I only use this as a guide. I get out the radios and check to see if the old schedule is correct ( I don't think I have found one that was ). I normally check a few of the receptacles with the "Sure Test" to see if any other problems need to be brought to the home owners attention.

[electricman2]

Don't know how true it is but I was once told that if the inspector sees a real neatly done panel, he won't look so close to anything else. :)

[bphgravity]

Don't know how true it is but I was once told that if the inspector sees a real neatly done panel, he won't look so close to anything else. :)

This is somewhat true. A really neat job indicates an installer who cares about their work. Neatness and code compliance work hand in hand. Sloppiness tends to reveal code violations.

[George Stolz]

I view this as the ethical ideal: I don't strip out a panel neatly to get the inspector to overlook violations. That may sound harsh, but that's kinda what we're talking about here, ey?

I strip out the panel somewhat neatly to make it easier to manage, whether it be adding to the panel I install, just trimming it out at final, or it's eventual replacement. So, my feeders have loops. My neutrals are pressed tight to the perimeter of the can, and landed on the screws farthest from where they enter the box, but turn directly in to avoid clutter. Same for the grounds, when possible. Whenever possible, I pull the left side neutrals to the right neutral bar, because it's extra length that doesn't consume a lot of volume in a panel.

If someone replaces one of my panels someday, I hope they open they find that all the branch circuit conductors are long enough to reach a similar location in a new panel. I don't expect the conductor in breaker #1 to be able to land in #9 someday. But it should be able to reach #1 again in the new panel.

I hope that I sized the circuits such that the person replacing the panel doesn't find used-up insulation on the conductors.

I try to remember to bore a couple extra holes below a panel in a garage, so that fishing up homeruns for a basement finish is as painless as possible. I try to route my cables so that the prime fishing holes are available in the panel.

In short, I try to work such that I would enjoy following myself for a remodel situation. If we all worked that way, our job would be easier, at least in what we can control. Do I fall short sometimes? Heck yeah. But if we continually strive to make our work better, then doing better work faster gets easier, IMO. :)

[macmikeman]

When I swap out a panel, I like to first make sure to label any circuits that are larger wires than normal on breakers one size smaller. Like for instance #12 on a 15 amp brkr. Taking the time to flag those is more important to me than worrying about trusting an old existing schedule. After making sure to get the flagged 12's back on 15 amps, I will run around with a portable radio to figure out what is going where.

[jes25]

My grandfather once told me when working in a crawl space "do a nice job so you enjoy what your doing" That really stuck with me. I find in the times I am in a hurry or it doesn't look as neat as I would like I am not proud of my work. Work you are not proud of typically is no fun to do.

On the other hand I know guys that put more emphasis on how something looks than if it meets the code. I am serious. It's like Hey I might not know sh*t about theory or code but it looks nice!! So if I am an inspector I wont cut any slack just because it looks nice. Maybe the person who's home burned down or got electrocuted will say "at least it looked good" from the grave. :roll:

[Minuteman]

I have made some rather neat panels myself, in the past. On somebody else's nickel, but then a strange thing happened, I become the license holder.

I had a guy spend all day on a new construction 200 amp 40 circuit panel. Looked sharp! But at what cost?

Make it look good, sure. But hurry up a little, will ya?

[goldstar]

If your intent is to neatly wire a breaker panel in hopes that an inspector might not be so critical of the rest of your installation, you're doing this for the wrong reason. If the rest of your installation has violations or isn't as neat as your panel and the inspector doesn't pick up on it, then he isn't doing his job and he hasn't done you any favors. On the other hand, if he's the type of inspector that will knock you down if you have an extra tab separated or broken out of a 1-gang, nail on plastic box citing that you've violated the fire rating on that box, then you're going to have your chops broken anyway. Making that breaker panel neat isn't going to change that.

I agree with George. I dress out my breaker panels the same way. In addition, I customarily use 2 1/2" pieces of RX jackets as wire markers (white for 14 ga, yellow for 12 ga, orange for 10 ga.), sleeve them over the wires at the circuit breaker and mark them with a fine point magic marker. It serves several purposes a) you can easily tell what branch circuit each breaker serves while the panel cover is off, b) it's easier to mark the breaker panel directory after the breaker installation is complete and (c) it shows that you took pride in your installation.

[hardworkingstiff]

[quote="Minuteman"]I have made some rather neat panels myself, in the past. On somebody else's nickel, but then a strange thing happened, I become the license holder.

quote]


I can relate! :lol:

[memyselfandI]

I have seen some panels that look like a squirrel has made a nest in it. I deal with the cub scouts as a volunteer and one of the things we have them do is build projects out of wood. I explained to them that when you make something with your hands. no matter what it is, you should take pride in it because it is like an extension of who you are as a person. It shows confidence, intelligence, and most of all pride. I hate sloppy panels, but some people think that sloppy is "in a neat and professional like manner".

[frank_n]

I make the panel look nice. I don't think it takes that much longer, and it does make me proud of my work.

Frank N

[LarryFine]

If your intent is to neatly wire a breaker panel in hopes that an inspector might not be so critical of the rest of your installation, you're doing this for the wrong reason.
I agree 100%, although, years ago, before I became a Master, I rewired a large farmhouse my in-laws gutted and rebuilt, on his electrical permit. Also, against my stern advice, my dad-in-law insisted that I mount the meter base on the rear porch. I told him we'd have to move it, but . . .

He later told me that, when the inspector came out, he checked the panel first, and said he didn't need to see anything else. On his way out, he stopped and said that the meter had to be moved off of the porch. My dad-in-law seemed to have greater respect for me after that.
In addition, I customarily use 2 1/2" pieces of RX jackets as wire markers (white for 14 ga, yellow for 12 ga, orange for 10 ga.), sleeve them over the wires at the circuit breaker and mark them with a fine point magic marker. It serves several purposes a) you can easily tell what branch circuit each breaker serves while the panel cover is off, b) it's easier to mark the breaker panel directory after the breaker installation is complete and (c) it shows that you took pride in your installation.
Agreed again. To avoid double work, we mark the sheath when we pull the home runs, and use the same section of sheath to sleeve the hots. Here's a pair of pics:


Before breakers:

http://fineelectricco.com/KwPanels1.jpg


After breakers:

http://fineelectricco.com/KwPanels2.jpg


In case you're wondering, the 100a breakers feed the pair of sub-panels across the basement, for the bedroom end of the house (except the hot-tub outside the master bedroom).

[goldstar]

Looks good Larry. My panels come out exactly the same way. Saves me the trouble of posting one of my own pics (seeing as how I don't have a digital camera).

[Minuteman]

What??? You call that neat? Yuck!

In the "after breaker" pics: Left Panel. The red wire on breaker #7 is sloppy
All the wires on the left side of the left panel and the top wires on the left side of the right panel are missing their little identification label made from NM jacket
Both panels. White wires not re-identified as ungrounded conductors.
Both Panels. The Service entrance conductors are inconsistent. The red wire is on the "A" buss in the right panel and the "B" buss in the left panel.
Some of the neutral wires have an "unnatural" bend.


I could go on and on.

[goldstar]

Contrary to popular belief we do try and do this work to make money. As far as I'm concerned this panel is pretty neat. I don't know what you're accustomed to finding when you go on service calls but if I came across this panel I would compliment the work of the electrician who installed it. Now, if you're the type of individual who takes even more time to exactly bend each wire into its proper spot, install markers with a Brother P-Touch, ty-wrap all the conductors along the side of the panel making sure no wires overlap each other causing a bundling mess, make a 2nd trip back to the job after you've typed out your panel directories then I ask you this "Why can't electricians like you work in my area so we can compete for whatever business there is ???

[LarryFine]

What??? You call that neat? Yuck!

In the "after breaker" pics: Left Panel. The red wire on breaker #7 is sloppy
All the wires on the left side of the left panel and the top wires on the left side of the right panel are missing their little identification label made from NM jacket
Both panels. White wires not re-identified as ungrounded conductors.
Both Panels. The Service entrance conductors are inconsistent. The red wire is on the "A" buss in the right panel and the "B" buss in the left panel.
Some of the neutral wires have an "unnatural" bend.


I could go on and on.

Okay, I'll accept the criticism, and I'll respond:

1. Big deal. My helper trimmed that home run a bit short during rough-in. At least we didn't splice it to gain 2".

2. There is no question about which circuit is which on the 2-poles you mentioned. Besides, the sheaths are also marked.

3. You're wrong here. If you look closely, they're colored light blue, more obvious in the before pis, and moreso in person.

4. This matters why? Besides, they're the same way at the mains, so like phases are on the same side of the panels.

5. Huh??? What constitutes a "natural" bend?


Note: I didn't pretty-up the panels for these pics.

[Minuteman]

Larry, the panels look great! I was just picking at you. :P

I don't understand the natural bend thing either, but an inspector here will fail a wire that has tool marks on it to force a bend. A bend must be "natural" to him.

[LarryFine]

Larry, the panels look great! I was just picking at you. :P

I don't understand the natural bend thing either, but an inspector here will fail a wire that has tool marks on it to force a bend. A bend must be "natural" to him.

I wasn't sure. You stunned me with the last two. Patricia (my better third) said "You're kidding!" That was good. Thanx for the kudos, Michael and everyone.

I guess "natural bend" is what you get when you bend a wire with your fingers, with a bit of radius, and not a sharp 90 like you'd get bending with a pair of Kleins.

I had no intention of taking pics when I made up these panels. This is real-world work, and not something I'd have spent twice the time on for, say, a magazine shoot.

For what it's worth, this house is 7800 sq.ft., we passed both rough and final on the first try, and we had exactly zero shorts upon circuit energization.

Patricia tool many other pictures of this job, including the phone, networking, satellite, A/V, etc. work we did. I'll make up a gallery of some sort. We're proud of it.

[George Stolz]

Now, Larry, the re-identified white on the left bank of the left panel is not technically right; the ID is not at the termination, it peters out a few inches prior. :P

Good panels, bud. :)

[Minuteman]

Larry,

In my own warped sense of humor, I was try to say that even a near perfect set of panels such as those two, could be picked apart. I quickly ran out of "brilliance" so I tried to baffle with b.s.

Now, about the panel I was in today: 4/0 AL feeders
Maxed out with G.E. thins.
Most wires too long and "looped".
Some breakers "double lugged"
No tags or legend telling what circuit goes where.

[anthony001]

Speaking of panels maxed out with G.E. thins I was recently on a job doing some fixture swaps and a light lift. The H.O. asked me about landscape lighting and how many they would need This is a 5000 sqft home, brand new development where the houses range from the 900's to 1.5m. I went to see there panel because I would of needed to add a circuit. Needless to say packed to the gills 200 amp GE with all slims only one opening left. This just seemed a little ridiculous to me all that money and no room for future HRs.

[tonyi]

I usually try to avoid TQP/THQP's on anything larger than 20A. The contact area and fingers just don't seem as robust as a THQL.

[sroc2006]

Don't know how true it is but I was once told that if the inspector sees a real neatly done panel, he won't look so close to anything else. :)

Always leave one obvious mistake for the inspector to find, otherwise he'll search until he finds one. I like to leave a cover off of a GFCI outlet for him to find.

[macmikeman]

Always leave one obvious mistake for the inspector to find, otherwise he'll search until he finds one. I like to leave a cover off of a GFCI outlet for him to find.

I think it is an old wives tale. I try to never leave any loose ends, on purpose or otherwise.

[j_erickson]

Always leave one obvious mistake for the inspector to find, otherwise he'll search until he finds one. I like to leave a cover off of a GFCI outlet for him to find.

I think it is an old wives tale. I try to never leave any loose ends, on purpose or otherwise.

I agree, I never try to leave a loose end.

With that said, my father used to encounter one certain inspector who looked and looked until he found something to red tag. Would always only find one violation, and would come back for reinspection. He said that he had to resort to leaving a plate off in a conspicuous location.

Years later while meeting with that inspector, he always inquired about my father and went out of his way to compliment him. Go figure.

[scwirenut]

I think those are great looking panels, the only thing i see is a violation of 312.6b the 4/0 feeders are coming straight into the lugs, which i believe can only be done with "lay-in " lugs as in a meter base., I always use an "s" loop, other than that, good work..........

[Gmack]

Some years back I had a very cocky journeyman "try" me at lunch break in front of 10 or 12 other various electricians and the GC Supt.

He asked me how I trimmed out panels.

I explained, that I take each circuit well below the bus bars and breakers and then loop back up to land.

He loudly derailed my method and proclaimed that he took each wire "directly" to its destination without any slack. "Looked better"

Well, I was subbed in and he was the job runner and he put me in charge of the electrical panel rooms and I did everything my way anyway.

On start up he came running into one panel room where I was working, he gazed at one panel, loudly saying that he made a mistake on the panel schedule and that one 3 phase breaker was in the wrong place.

ON THE WRONG SIDE!

Upon examination he discovered my method of leaving extra wire by looping, he was then able to swap out the breaker to the other side of the panel where the load and schedule "agreed".

To his credit, he again in a loud manner said" Thats why we leave extra wire in panels.

The GC Supt was standing in the doorway and broke out in laughter.

In that same company all electricians are taught to not leave loops in pull boxes either.

Makes it a pain when another mistake comes up and a pull box needs to become a junction box.

.

[izak]

SCWIRENUT

WHAT violation of 312.6b can you say about those 4/0 feeders coming straight down into those lugs??

all 312.6 b says in that APPLICATION is that there must be At Least 4 inches of space between the lug and the wall from which it enters...

please clarify if you dont mind..

[izak]

that is not to say that some slack ANYWHERE is not a good idea
but
that isnt a code violation

[cowboyjwc]

I love to see a clean panel, makes it so much easier to inspect.

But please leave the tie wraps at home. The poor guy that comes in after you just has to cut them all off and chance nicking a wire.

[luckyshadow]

AMEN !! on the tie wraps !!!!!
I hate to see tie wraps in a panel :x
Not only can it become a Pain in the backside but have you ever looked closely at those bundles of wire after cutting away the tie wraps ?
I have and I have found many a "hot" spots on the conductors where the heat has been building up.
In my opinion tie wrapping in a panel is a problem just waiting to surface.

[cowboyjwc]

Yeah, isn't it funny that the same guy who will smack talk somebody for running a bunch of cables through a 2" connector will then bundle up all his wire in the panel and wrap a tie wrap around them as tight as he can.