I need advice...

[Big D 40]

I have an employee who came to me this evening stating that he loved working for my company but he was offered another job with a local contractor making $2 more on the hour. This particular employee was hired less then 9 months ago and has been given 2 pay increases since then. I hire all of my people green mainly because I do not want any bad habits coming into my shop. I have a policy of giving raises every 6 months based on dependablity, performance, ect. and I am pretty liberal with time off, holidays, and the like. It shocked me that he was so brazen to ask if I would match the competitors price. I told him that I did not in good faith think that it would be the right or fair thing to do and that he could walk if he wanted. Now I am having second thoughts and wondering if I really did the right thing. Any suggestions? By the way he is going to let me know tomorrow if he is leaving.

Thanks!:confused:

[77401]

Do you ever play Poker?
It sounds like a bluff to me, or he would have told you right then he was leaving.
If you give him more pay what consideration will he give you to not do this again?
Will he sign a contract to stay on for a year? at this pay rate?
Negotiate.
If you don't pay up he has to leave or he can't do this game again.

1)Tell him he's fire for even trying this.
2) Offer only $1 more p/hour but its a raise in advance of his next which he won't get.
3) If he is this aggresive about this. what make you think he won't be stealing your customers in a few years? We all know how that works. LET HIM GO

[dduffee260]

Do you own the company? If so then you are the only employee that cannot be replaced. Employees get raises because they deserve a raise. Not because they asked for one. If that was the cirteria for getting a raise there would be alot of super wealthy employees out there.

I had an employee a while back hint around at me that his former employer offerd more money to get him back. He was really not that good an electrician and I honestly was thinking about letting him go.

He finished a project we had, I went to his house the next day and informed him he was fired. He seemed hurt, I told him " I am going to make 3 people happy here, first your former employer because he wants you back so bad, next you are going to be happy because you told me he was going to pay you more money, and finally I will be happier because you caused me to take a loss on this last project". I have not once regretted letting him go.

If any of my employees demands more money I tell them if they need more money then get it from performance bonuses. If they want more by the hour and it is that much, I tell them see ya !

[satcom]

First question is, do you have him enrolled in a formal trainning program?, if you do, then he knows exactly what his raises will be, and when he will get them, and it is very rare, for someone your trainning and investing time in leaves, if he is not enrolled in a formal program, then might it be, the other contractor will get him registered, and offer him the 4 year program with known rate increases?

My view on him comming, and asking for a match in rates, would have me looking for someone else, if he asks; and you give in, it will never stop, a few months down the road, and he will hit you up again, not the kind of employee anyone wants.

Does he know that the other contractor, may be busy right now, and just needs a body for a while, and sure he will pay a bit more, he dosen't intend to keep him on, as soon as work slows, this guy will be back looking for his job back, this is common in this business, when they come back we just say sorry, we have nothing open.

[Big D 40]

thanks guys for all of the good advice. I am the owner of the company and I have only been in business for a year and a half. I do an in house training with all of my guys once a week. And I try the best I can to be fair with everyone. I think you all are right about him and I guess I now need to decide whether I should grow a set of b@lls or let him walk all over me.:rolleyes:

[LarryFine]

Bottom line is whether he's worth the raise to hold onto.

[bikeindy]

I'll throw in my $2 worth. The only questions I have, is he worth the raise? Is he making you the kind of money that warrents a raise of $2. If you answer yes to this question I think it is fair for him to ask and fair for you to pay it. I worked for an EC years ago who gave me $5.25 worth in raises over a 8 month period. Why? Because I deserved it and he knew it. And I didn't have to ask him for the raises they just showed up in my checks and each time when he gave me the check that had a raise he said don't worry the figures are right on this. I had another employer that I asked for a $2 an hour raise and told him I was thinking of leaving if I didn't get it. He gave me $1.50 -three months later I was in business for myself and now do all their contract electrical work since I am the one who installed all the new systems that they have.

Bottom line is if you like the guy and he is good and making you the money he needs to pay him and he will make you even more.

[celtic]

By the way he is going to let me know tomorrow if he is leaving.

Thanks!:confused:
That means he doesn't know if the other guy will actually give him that money.

It reminds me of...well....ME

I played that game with almost every contractor I worked for. I was a quick study when it came to hands on stuff...but a bit dense (and still am) when it came to book learnin'.
I would tell the guy I worked for that Joe's EC would give me $x more per hour....hoping my guy would give me 1/2 $x. Never happened..my guy would call the bluff and I had a choice - take nada and look like a fool, or walk. So I would walk.
When I got another job, I would tell the new guy that the old guy was paying me $x...he would say, I'll try you out at $x - $1.
I really didn't gain much, monitarily speaking, from this "act"...and spent a lot of time looking for a job.

See what happens tom'row....and let us know if he walks.

[fc]

How good is he and how busy are you? How hard is it to find good help in your area? Is he making you money? Questions you need to ask yourself,
Employees come and go. That's part of business.
If he is good and if help is hard to find then maybe it time to make a deal with him. Give him $1.00 now and tell him in a few months he will get the other $1.00. At least it's buying you some time to either find new help or see if he is worth the money.
There is an old saying "You have to feed the mouth that feeds you" it's only when he has his fingers in your plate that is the time to let him go.

[shelco]

Are you paying a competetive wage? If so giving in to his demands will bite you real quick. Soon others will know about it and do the same. If you have a pay and rate structure in place stick with it but evaluate it on occassion.

Talk to your people regularly and let them know whats what, keep them informed and make them feel like part of your company. If there only interest is short term monetary gains then he will leave eventually any way.

Change your people or "change" your people.

[j_erickson]

Pay him only if he's worth it. I don't have any schedule for raises. When they are worth a raise, they get a raise. My guys know I do the best I can for them, so If someone came to me with the scenario you described, I would not hesitate to suggest he take the other offer. If your employee is not lying about his offer, you really can't blame him for asking. If he is bluffing, I really wouldn't want him to stay on anyway, as I'd wonder how his dishonest actions will progress. Almost sounds like lose/ lose situation. Keep us posted, and good luck.

[charlie b]

My advice is to do nothing other than to "knock the ball into his side of the court," and get back to work yourself. Tell him that he is free to make his own decisions. You have a career path to offer him, the terms of which you have already laid down. If those terms do not suit his likings, then he must decide what he wishes to do about it.

My long-held understanding, though I have no statistics to back this up, is that if you give a person more money in situations like this, the person will leave within a few months anyway.

If you think this person is worth keeping around, then do, absolutely do tell him that. But make sure he knows what is available to him at your company, and make sure he knows that that is all that is available. If he stays, it is more likely that he will be more loyal because you have been honest with him.

[JROD]

It sounds to me like you run a pretty good and fair shop. If you have a 6 months raise policy I wouldn’t deviate from that policy. We all go to work to make money, but money is not the only motivation to work for someone.
People can never make enough money and if he is hitting you up for a raise now, there is no guarantee that he won’t try to go to the well again six months from now.

[markt]

Smoke Him!

There are a ton of people out there loking for jobs.

Mark T
Chicago

[jxofaltrds]

Go with your gut.

Your first choice is usually correct.

How many times have done something and later say to ourselves I knew better.

[growler]

Smoke Him!

There are a ton of people out there loking for jobs.

Mark T
Chicago
Yes, there are always people looking for work but try finding one that can spell.

[Big D 40]

First let me say thanks to every response. I decided to do the hard thing and that was to let him go. So I took the advise of one of the respondents and went over to his house last evening and let him know that I was letting him go. My suspect that he had already made up his mind to leave anyway, because he didn't bat an eye.
He was an employee who had a track record of calling off often. In 9 months he had called off 13 times. I know..you're thinking that should have been the hand writing on the wall. And as a matter of fact, 2 months ago, I gave him his walking papers only to have him literally cry and beg for another chance. Was he a good worker..yes, when he was there. A very likable guy and one that I hoped would stay with the company and grow. This is my hope for all my guys, but money talks and the grass always looks greener on the other side of the fence.
Thanks again to all...by the way any one need a job???:rolleyes:

[hardworkingstiff]

...by the way any one need a job???:rolleyes:

Can I get a $2/hr raise????

LOL

[Minuteman]

I read everything on this thread last night, but did not chime in (couldn't think of anything original to say). However, I believe you did the right thing.

[celtic]

...by the way any one need a job???:rolleyes:

I take a lot of time off....it'll be hard switching hats from employer to employee, but I'm willing to give you a chance ;)

[bikeindy]

He was an employee who had a track record of calling off often. In 9 months he had called off 13 times. I know..you're thinking that should have been the hand writing on the wall. And as a matter of fact, 2 months ago, I gave him his walking papers only to have him literally cry and beg for another chance. Was he a good worker..yes, when he was there. A very likable guy and one that I hoped would stay with the company and grow.

I would have fired him the 3rd time he missed. There is absolutly no rason to miss 13 times in 9 months. these are things you didn't say in your first post this guy is a looser and you should be glad to be rid of him. I can not and will not stand for absentees. I hate it there is just no excuse for it.

[dlhoule]

I can not and will not stand for absentees. I hate it there is just no excuse for it.:mad:

A lot of people feel that way. I got fired for missing 4 days of work when my brother died. This was after 6 years and missing a total of 1 day previously.:(

[lawrence kany]

If the worker is making you money keep him--if not let him walk

[infinity]

:mad:

A lot of people feel that way. I got fired for missing 4 days of work when my brother died. This was after 6 years and missing a total of 1 day previously.:(


Your boss was a d*@#$% bag.

[iwire]

Your boss was a d*@#$% bag.

No doubt about that.

[petersonra]

My 2 cents worth.

An employee is only there to make money for the employer. If you can afford to pay him more and you would be worse off without him, pay him more.

I don't like the surprise raises idea. It introduces randomness into the process and people like stability. Randomness seems unfair to many people, and when they feel you are unfair, they will leave. Worker bees often value stability and perceived fairness above monetary issues. This is hard to understand for the entrepreneurial type person.

My suggestion is to establish a regular schedule to review an employee's performance. People want and appreciate getting some feedback on what they are doing. Yearly is no where near often enough. It does not have to be real formal, just an honest and fair look at his/her performance. Be upfront when they do something wrong (or right for that matter). It does not have to be a yelling match, just a matter of fact statement that you expect something to be done in a certain way and a clear statement of how you want things done.

In a union shop you have little choice in pay scale, so it is not all that difficult to decide what to pay an employee and when to give them a raise. The written contract will dictate everything. In some respects this makes it easier on the employer because they make no decisions about any one individual as far as what to pay and when to give raises.

In a non-union environment, you have more flexibility, but you have to decide on each and every person, on an individual basis. There will always be some grousing about relative pay rates because everyone thinks they deserve to be paid more than the other guy. Some employers try to deal with this issue by attempting to prohibit the sharing of wage/salary data among employees. This is not usually successful. It is best to discourage such sharing, but not to make a huge deal about it. Everyone should know you try to be fair about raises, and you should make every effort to be fair.

Personally I think if you are in a non-union environment, the best idea is to have a written pay scale that defines what everyone will be paid for each job and seniority level. Than for employees who do average or above average work, introduce a bonus system payable on a regular basis. I don't think it is necessary to have a written definition of what the bonus is based on, or at least not to publish it, but employees will figure out very fast if you are not awarding them fairly. Be aware that your buddy Joe who has worked with you for 20 years, and plays poker with you every Friday night, is probably going to end up with higher bonuses just because you like him and are comfortable with him. This will cause no end of grief for you because of the perception of unfairness.

As for the guy who does not show up to work - probably the best answer is to can him unless there is some special reason to give him more than his fair share of chances. People like that are unreliable and rarely if ever change. If you don't deal with him, the rest of the employees will resent it.

[megloff11x]

Most industrial companies have a policy that you are considered to have quit when you are absent without calling in with a decent excuse for two straight days. I don't know of any company that would tolerate excessive sick time. At the least you'd be at the top of the lay off list for the next down turn, which may be automatically scheduled...

It's also considered a breach of ettiquette to know your co-workers salaries, raises, etc., though people often do.

Regarding the pay raise issue, many younger workers think they are worth more than they are. I started out in the Army where no one was irreplaceable - after all, you might be killed tomorrow.

Napoleon always preferred boringly reliable commanders and units to dahsing ones. The reliable you could depend on and forget about. The dashing ones dropped your fat in the fire more often than they pulled it out.

Also, just because the job and the worker don't mesh doesn't mean either is bad. Square peg to square hole, round to round.

You'll go through more than him.

Matt

[bikeindy]

:mad:

A lot of people feel that way. I got fired for missing 4 days of work when my brother died. This was after 6 years and missing a total of 1 day previously.:(

I am sure that is not what I was talking about. If one of my guys had a relative die take all the time you need. But I knew guys whos whole families were having an epidemic of death. I think one guy had 6 grandmas.

[celtic]

I think one guy had 6 grandmas.

http://gfx.filmweb.pl/p/47434/po.36039.jpg

Was it this "guy"?

[dduffee260]

We pay project bonuses on completed projects. We pay a competitive wage for this area. Paid holidays, vacations, give vehicles to drive, pay fuel and other things.
If an electrician completes a project and the profit is made we had in the project, he/she gets a portion of the profit. If the project loses money or goes past the man/woman hours. He/she most likely gets terminated for non-performance. Most of the time we give a bonus and I am glad to pay out what they earned.

[celtic]

If an electrician completes a project and the profit is made we had in the project, he/she gets a portion of the profit.

If the project loses money or goes past the man/woman hours. He/she most likely gets terminated for non-performance.

Does this imply that your people know some of (or even all of ) the specifics on the jobs they do?
By specifics I mean...do they know the allotted man-hours, job costs, etc.

[dduffee260]

Some of the time I tell them upfront the man/woman hours they have to work with. I let them know pretty much on a weekly basis where they are at. We have a girl in the office that takes down the project hours daily. Then we compensate for any non productive time accordingly. By that I mean if we had a safety meeting that morning I don't count that time against the project.
If I see the project even begin to get behind, I say something. If the project looks like it is going to head towards a loss I take whatever action I need to pull it back out. Sometimes that means termination of that electrician, but it really does not happen that often.
Several years back I did not do this and lost a ton of money on a project. I since then got a system down that helps. If you have a medium to large project, the last thing you want to do is find out it is in trouble towards the tail end. It is much easier to stop a little cut than stitch up a large gaping wound.
As far as time goes, I usually try and put in plenty of time. I most often get low bid by less than 4%. Alot of projects we get given to us on a design build price. Mostly because we try and run a tight ship and people know they are going to get their moneys worth.

[iwire]

If an electrician completes a project and the profit is made we had in the project, he/she gets a portion of the profit. If the project loses money or goes past the man/woman hours. He/she most likely gets terminated for non-performance.

Of course this assumes the job was estimated correctly and the GC kept the job on schedule running smoothly.

Even the best lead men can not make a loser a winner, they can only limit the losses.

[dduffee260]

Of course this assumes the job was estimated correctly and the GC kept the job on schedule running smoothly.

Even the best lead men can not make a loser a winner, they can only limit the losses.

Bob, you are so correct on that. We are on a school project now that is getting close to that. I always look at the causes of delays of course. If it was not the electrician's fault, I of course do not blame him/her. I usually send out letters to the GC and explain that we work 40 hour weeks. If we are required to vary from the time schedule we bid from then we expect to be compensated. This of course never happens. But it looks good on paper. Why is it so difficult for 16 trades to work as scheduled and everybody be on time?

And another thing. This having both men and women electricians makes my typing more difficult with this man/woman thing. But think of all the discrimination lawsuits I am saving myself.

[wattsup!]

If he's looking for another job, he's really not happy with yours...that's what I've learned over the years. He won't be satisfied even if you give him a raise, he'll always want something else. He'll always be looking.

I'm assuming from your post that "green" means green, no training, no experience. If that's the case and you gave him a shot, then let him go...I believe in loyalty, especially if you've been fair and compensated him well. Good people are hard to find, that's true. over the years, I've found (as some of the other posts indicate) that if you have a goal oriented program this works better...it puts a fire under your best workers and makes them better, and it even makes an unthankful malcontent shut his mouth cause other workers realize that he's not measuring up...

There's always a greenhorn looking for work, you just might find the right one.

[hardworkingstiff]

We pay project bonuses on completed projects. We pay a competitive wage for this area. Paid holidays, vacations, give vehicles to drive, pay fuel and other things.
If an electrician completes a project and the profit is made we had in the project, he/she gets a portion of the profit. If the project loses money or goes past the man/woman hours. He/she most likely gets terminated for non-performance. Most of the time we give a bonus and I am glad to pay out what they earned.

What do you do if you discover (after the bonus is paid) poor workmanship that is attributable to trying to meet the man-hour goals?

Does the electrician start questioning the accuracy of the estimate?

Do you wind up putting your best men on the tightest jobs trying to show a profit and putting your lesser performers on fatter jobs that can absorb the poorer performance? If so, is it fair to the top performers?

We had these discussions where I used to work and we came to the conclusion that paying a fair wage to all employees based on their performance was the best approach. If profits are exceptional, bonuses are awarded as a group, not per one job.

I don't know if we made the correct decision or not, and I'm sure you are comfortable with yours and it's working for you.

[LarryFine]

http://gfx.filmweb.pl/p/47434/po.36039.jpg

Was it this "guy"?

"Mama-san!" ~ Korean kid on M*A*S*H

[bikeindy]

"Mama-san!" ~ Korean kid on M*A*S*H


Mama-san Is Japanees, Uh-Ma is Korean (Hangool to be accurate).

[petersonra]

:mad:

A lot of people feel that way. I got fired for missing 4 days of work when my brother died. This was after 6 years and missing a total of 1 day previously.:(

Was this a union shop with a three day bereavement policy by any chance?

I have heard of this kind of thing happening in union shops because the bosses are afraid if they do not apply the rules in a rigidly uniform way it will become a precedent.

[noxx]

Of course this assumes the job was estimated correctly and the GC kept the job on schedule running smoothly.

Even the best lead men can not make a loser a winner, they can only limit the losses.

All I can say is amen to that. One of the worst experiences I had in the field was getting saddled with a terribly planned / costed job, then in addition, being stuck with the owners worthless son and son's buddy as "helpers" on a relatively small crew. That job was the only time I ever picked up my tools and walked with nothing more than a phone to the office.

As for the original poster, I think you did the right thing. Someone coming into the business with no experience has to be in it for the long haul to complete their electrical education. Most kids with about a years experience could leave their current employer for another dollar or two more, but it would be for a dead end crew that does nothing but rope, or slam troffers, etc. If the guy wants to be out there running his hole-hawg when he's 50, that's his business, but it's a poor choice.

[LarryFine]

Mama-san Is Japanees, Uh-Ma is Korean (Hangool to be accurate).
I believe you, so either the show chose a more-famailar word, or the kid was supposed to be Japanese.