I might have lost this one

[memyselfandI]

Can someone explain the logic in designing a breaker panel that is made for outdoors? I mean I know that they are legal and rated for that purpose, and most of you say that there is nothing wrong with them, but here is my problem. Someone very close to you is doing something that causes the breaker to trip. It's dark, raining cats and dogs, lightning flashing, just a bad night for breakers to be tripping. This person goes outside, without shoes on (yes there are people who do this), slop through the water to the panel, open the rusted cover, stick their hand into the panel...which by the way has a few blanks missing, they always do, and attempt to reset the breaker. Now what do some breakers do if there is still a short, they kind of arc a little bit when you try to reset them huh? I may have lost a job today because the GC suggested to the owner that he move the panel to the outside because the GC didn't like it in the middle of the wall. I mentioned that there were other options such as to sub feed the panel to a different and more pleasing location inside the house. But unfortunately this person wants to listen to the GC, who by the way is not a certified and licensed electrician. So I told him that seeing how the GC knows more about electrical work than I do, let him do the electrical work. I won't put one of those things in my house, so why would I want to put it in someone elses house. They leak, their ugly, when they rust they look even worse. They are a P.I.T.A. Any thoughts on what an idiot I am or are there people who can hear what I am saying? Be easy now people.

[celtic]

I hear what you're saying....but...the customer is always right (unless it violates code)...we can do it any dumb way you like, then you can pay us to do it again :)

[bphgravity]

The equipment isn't the problem, it's the user and owner of the equipment that is. The maintenance and upkeep of electrical equipment is the responsibility of the owner of the equipment. The NEC should not contain provisions that are in design in nature or consider what may happen in the future due to poor upkeep, poor weather, or any other less than perfect circumstance.

[Minuteman]

Dude!

Okay, relax, remember to breathe.

An outdoor panel may not be my first option. Or even my second. However, there are circumstances where they are the last resort. For example; Antiquated panel is in a bedroom closet and a upgrade is in order.

But you need to sell it! Tell the customer that they are an affordable option, perfectly safe, and UL approved. Tell them you install 4-5 of them a month. Tell them that you see no problem. Then, if you get the job, professionally install a quality load center and put your phone number sticker on it and give them a fridge magnet. (So, when it trips, they call YOU!) And, if it should rust out in 25 - 30 years, then deal with it then.

[growler]

I see your logic on not wanting to install an outdoor panel. I would explain it to the customer that way. Then you can always fall back on the old " it's gonna cost you more ". That normally puts a stop to that. If that fails then install the panel and forget about it. ( you tried your best ).

[TOMWELDS]

Filler plates missing is a problem if the electrician left it that way....The customer standing in water is the same with a outdoor receptacle or outdoor fixture bulb change..if they didnt learn about water and electricity in the 3rd grade, there's probably no hope....as long as it's code compliant, you're ok.

[77401]

Well you asked so yes your an idiot.
Why? Because it is not illegal & its UL listed & approved to install an outdoor breaker panel outdoors.
I can onestly say I have never heard of any one getting hurt reseting a triped or dead shorted breaker even in the rain. But I have only been in the trades for 26 years.

Maybe you'll learn from this experience & this forum. Its always OK to expres your opinion once then shut up.
Next time remember the three "C"s

Close your mouth
Close the Sale
Close the door

I hope you find another job soon.

[TOMWELDS]

I think that was uncalled for...

[bkludecke]

well, out here in So. Cal. we have been installing NEMA 3R panelboards by the millions for decades. A typical SFR has a 100 or 200amp "all in one" which is a meterbase-main cb-panelboard combination in one cabinet mounted either on the surface or semiflush on the building exterior. We have seen no more problems with these than we have with indoor installations. NEMA 3R equipment is designed and listed for exterior use in wet locations. As far as the barefooted person trying to reset a C/B out in the rain senario......I guess there are those who do not need to remain in the human genepool.

Bob on the left coast.

[jeff43222]

Actually, I agree with the OP. I have vetoed things on grounds of safety, even when allowed by code.

There's no way the code can cover every possible situation, and inevitably some things will slip through the cracks, or some things might be approved despite strong reservations from other members of a CMP. Consider NM cable, for example. I use it for probably 80-90% of the work I do, but the powers that be in Chicago wouldn't let me use it at all if I worked there.

Sure, you have to follow whatever rules your AHJ has adopted, but if you personally don't think a proposed installation is a good idea, you have every right to follow your conscience and refuse to do it.

No sense looking for extra reasons to lose sleep.

[77401]

OK
Explain to me a scenario where, provided an exterior surface mounted breaker panel, properly installed, grounded and bonded, no missing blanks, can hurt a bafefoot person reseting an overloaded tripped breaker, in the rain.
I can't picture any scenario of any danger.
Let your imagination run wild.

[Minuteman]

The one I hear from women the most is, "But can't somebody come along and turn off the power?" I reply, "You have watching to many movies."

One guy said. "But can't somebody steal electricity?" I stared at him and said, "Well, yes, but don't you think they would use your outside GFCI's instead?"

Put a lock on it!

[bikeindy]

Personally I think these panels have a place and it is not on a residence. But that is just me. I won't install a panel in the garage if there is a basement I just think the panel belongs with the rest of the mechanicals.

[memyselfandI]

Well I appreciate everyones honesty in replying to this post.I myself have been an electrician for 25 years and one of the things that I have learned is that when I am hired to do a job and a customer asks my opinion, I don't close my mouth, close the sale, close the door. The all mighty dollar and making the sale is important, but so is the safety of my customers. They hire me for my knowledge of the trade and to install an electrical system that is safe and I believe it is my obligation to express concerns about certain applications that I feel are unsafe or not in the best interest of the customer. I tell them what they need to know not what they want to hear and if it means that I don't get the job then so be it. At least I know that there are people out there that can pick up the scraps that someone leaves behind. Except this job. I got the job and secured more money to do the change order AND received another contract from the same person to wire another house right next to that one. So I dodged a bullet on that one, and yes I am an idiot. But I think when the job is over I'll write myself a hefty little bonus check to make myself feel better.

[don_resqcapt19]

Explain to me a scenario where, provided an exterior surface mounted breaker panel, properly installed, grounded and bonded, no missing blanks, can hurt a bafefoot person reseting an overloaded tripped breaker, in the rain.
Any time that the service neutral is open or has a high resistance path, or any time that there is an elevated voltage on the utility primary neutral.
Don

[celtic]

I got the job and secured more money to do the change order ...
Like I said...

...we can do it any dumb way you like, then you can pay us to do it again :)

They got off "easy"...as the "re-do crew" won't be making an apprearance...they saved a few bucks :) ..you closed the deal(and then some)...everyone's happy http://www.frostjedi.com/phpbb/images/smiles/cheers.gif

[satcom]

Don,

Good job, yes, and those conditions, are often found, outdoor loadcenters, can become a hazzard.

Thank you!

[tufts46argled]

There is no sin in walking away from a job you don't feel comfortable with!

[77401]

Don,

Good job, yes, and those conditions, are often found, outdoor loadcenters, can become a hazzard.

Thank you!

Satcom?
Can you please elaborate on the hazard an outdoor load center can become?
Please realize, as I do, down south we don't have basements or snow and many of us have detached garages.
Also the POCO now requires new installations of the meter accesible without entering the back yard.
But notwithstanding the location I want to here your reason for calling an outdoor loadcenter a "HAZARD"

[77401]

Any time that the service neutral is open or has a high resistance path, or any time that there is an elevated voltage on the utility primary neutral.
Don

OK I'll give you this, but on the same hand why is this possible scenario any safer inside?

Many times your above mentioned neutral condition exist, I have had customers report voltage shocks in the shower from the CW faucet.
So with your condition I still feel it makes no safety difference, inside or outside.

[Minuteman]

At least I know that there are people out there that can pick up the scraps that someone leaves behind.

Thank you sir, may I have another?

[e57]

Anyone ever hear the words "I told you so..." Not that you would go out of your way to create a hazard like that, but Murphy works in mysterious ways, saying that it could, it just might. :eek:

Either way, after many years of service work, I too will opt for an indoor panel any day. And I often think of those days, as I install now... "Some poor sucker might have to come back to this 30 years from now." In the case of outdoors, maybe a lot sooner....

[celtic]

And I often think of those days, as I install now... "Some poor sucker might have to come back to this 30 years from now."

Heaven forbid a piece of equipment should "fail" - even when installed properly....makes me glad I'm not a roofer!

30 years ago, I doubt many people could predict what the average demand would be.

[e57]

Oh personaly I think GCs should stick to what they know.... It often irritates me as well, with bad ill-advised or just plain unallowable suggestions. They are often a stream of bad advice, and I too often feel that if they want to do it thier way, THEY can do it thier way. Its taken me years to gain the subtle art of guiding customers away from bad advice in a glad handy type way.

[e57]

Celtic, thats about the age just about all equipment starts to fail. Nothing last forever, but 30 years is a darned long time... Those 60 year old panels you might be replacing now, take a look, and you might see some modifications.... About 30 years old....

[satcom]

There is plenty of equipment we install outdoors, and we will continue to do so, I think the issue is (when there is a choice), what is the better option, for locating a loadcenter, the outdoor location, presents a greater hazzard, due to conditions, in the outside enviroment, there is less of a chance of puddle of water, or driving rain in the bedroom location, or garage, contact with a wood floor, or dry garage floor, may be better then standing in a puddle outside.

[bkludecke]

Recently I was visiting in the great state of Mass. While there I noticed that the house I was staying at had this room underneath it for the furnace, laundry & elect. panel (I think they called it a basement). Seems like a good idea since the footing has to be down below the frostline anyway. Out here in the southwest we don't have these things, and wood floors are a luxury, so most homes are on concrete slabs. Land is relatively cheap so we don't have 2nd & 3rd floors either; Yup, all of the house is on one slab with the garage attached. The electrical service & circuit breakers are all ouside and the bodies are not piling up in the streets; in fact people are streaming over the borders (foreign & domestic) by the millions just to marvel at our weird exterior panelboards. So if you ever come to visit out here BE CAREFUL! the place where you stay will likely have an outside panelboard!!!

When in Rome......

Bob on the left coast.

[adrian33773]

It just so happens I picked up one of those outside panels by accident. I was in a hurry and not paying attention. I tried to talk the customer into using it. I told him it would be safer inside his garage if for example one of the hoses broke on the washing machine. He wouldn't buy it. I had to drive 15 miles to exchange it for the indoor model. One thing bad about them is unless you have a lock on them anybody could come into your yard and shut off your power. Like a burgler or serial killer!

[satcom]

We have plenty of slab homes here, and they all have loadcenters inside, the outdoor loadcenter is a choice, and usually installed as a cost saver, all in one unit.

[hardworkingstiff]

Personally ...... I just think the panel belongs with the rest of the mechanicals.

Where is the condensing unit?

Water pump (if you have one)?

[Minuteman]

I just keep wondering WWID?

Throughout this great land, NEMA3 loadcenters are installed everyday by the millions. They can be found on the side of small tract houses and homes valued in the millions. The use of this listed equipment is accepted by Underwriters and Testing Laboratories from sea to shining sea. Outside breaker panels adorn homes from Portland Main to Portland Oregon. The endorsement of these panels have been a part of the NEC for decades. Inspectors by the droves approve Raintight Breaker Boxes in every jurisdiction.

Yet it appears that some in our craft will not as much soil their hands with the likes of such an evil apparatus. One might think that scores of homeowners are electrocuted every day from these instruments from hell.

So I keep asking myself, WWID?

What Would IWIRE Do?

[77401]

One thing bad about them is unless you have a lock on them anybody could come into your yard and shut off your power. Like a burgler or serial killer!

LOL
Too many movies adrian!
Do you have your Phone cables in conduit?
Do your basements ever flood? Uh oh.... HAZARD!
Driving rain, SAtcom? I think these are listed for a driving rain. What about weqther proof wall plugs or light fixtures? I feel the loadcenter can outlast any of those, safely.

I'll conceed outside is the second location choice when there is another option, if you stop being an alarmist & using the "HAZARD" for an outdoor location. The harzards are not determined by location.

[e57]

"Inspectors by the droves approve Raintight Breaker Boxes in every jurisdiction."

Not "every".... There are a few towns south and north of me that will of course allow a NEMA 3, but it has to be dog-housed, or inside. One place is for visual appearance, and the rest are due to constant salt laden fog. The air is like battery acid there. Outside equipment will rot fast. POCO often use copper service drops for the same reason. But those areas are dealing with the full brunt of the Pacific Ocean....

[haskindm]

Playing the "what could happen" game may drive you crazy. Yes an outdoor panel may eventually rust. Did you ever see a rusty panel in a damp basement? I have. Some homeowner or unscrupulous "electrician" may not install blanks in unused breaker spaces, regardless of where the panel is installed. A person standing barefooted on a damp concrete basement or garage floor is probably at more risk for shock than a person standing in the grass (as a rule concrete is a better conductor than dirt). Is a homeowner more likely to go to the garage or basement barefooted or to an outside panel? Someone may turn off the power to your house if you have an outside panel. That is possible, but a person could also pull your meter and kill power to the house regardless of where the panel is located. At least the homeowner may install a lock on an outdoor panel, the power company would probably object to a lock being installed on their meter base). If the person wants an exterior panel and you or they are concerned with rust, sell them a NEMA4R panel. They are stainless steel. I once did a job where they were pumping salt water through a building for environmental research. The specifications called for NEMA4R. This equipment was a work of art. Beautiful stuff and very resistant to rust. I appreciate your concern for your customers, but all hazards cannot be eliminated. Tell your customer about your concerns, do your best to minimize them, make sure that you are code compliant, and go on with life.

[cowboyjwc]

As soon as you start reading these posts you can almost tell what part of the country that people are from.

Like bkludecke (Hi Bob, John from Simi Valley) I've never installed a panel that wasn't on the outside of the house and even if we didn't the utility company requires the main disconnect to be outside with the meter so you would still have to go outside in the rain and reset it.

When I visit friends in the midwest I'm amazed to see only a meter on the outside of the house, but then I'm pretty amazed to see basements too. Why don't we build them on the west coast? Beats the heck out of me. We're big on building up and out.

Do you have commercial services located on the exterior of businesses?

[DGrant041]

As soon as you start reading these posts you can almost tell what part of the country that people are from.

Like bkludecke (Hi Bob, John from Simi Valley) I've never installed a panel that wasn't on the outside of the house and even if we didn't the utility company requires the main disconnect to be outside with the meter so you would still have to go outside in the rain and reset it.

When I visit friends in the midwest I'm amazed to see only a meter on the outside of the house, but then I'm pretty amazed to see basements too. Why don't we build them on the west coast? Beats the heck out of me. We're big on building up and out.

Do you have commercial services located on the exterior of businesses?

Now THERE's an opinion I can agree with! Some places you can; some places you can't--it depends on the environment you're installing it in and the grade of material you're using. When I worked for an ethanol/starch plant, we learned the hard way that ANYTHING put in the starch plant had to be NEMA 4X--no NEMA 3 or 3R or 12 would last--inside or outside. Some of you have similar outside environments and experience tells you that it will rust out quickly.

Others have a very different situation. ALL of your panelboards are outside and will last longer than you or I will! :eek:

In any case, I'd agree with those who will sacrifice a sale if it means they keep a clear conscience. That goes for NEC violation or not. If you can't do it in good conscience, then let those who don't care or have a conscience do it (or not).

Before I get ripped to shreds, there are things I wouldn't recommend but will still do because my boss told me to. That's different. But to do something that experience tells me could create an electrical hazard. . .NOT gonna do it--wouldn't be prudent--not at this juncture. :rolleyes:

[hardworkingstiff]

haskindm,

You are a voice of reason.

[LarryFine]

haskindm, You are a voice of reason.

Yeah. Stop it! ;)

[satcom]

"Inspectors by the droves approve Raintight Breaker Boxes in every jurisdiction."

Not here, we have areas that an outdoor box would, fall apart in a few years, we also have to use copper in these areas, the combo, outdoor units are usually installed as a cost saver, they are approved, and have been used for many years, what has not been around for many years, is the utility distribution system, problems with pathing, poor return paths, just a note of caution.

[iwire]

What Would IWIRE Do?

I would hit the lottery and find some tropical place to hang out in. :D

But as you asked..it is entirely a regional issue to me.

It's all in what your used to.

I don't see outside to be that much more hazardous than inside.

As long as it's not raining, it's tough to find a worse situation than working on a live panel in a rainstorm. It must happen in areas that outdoor panels are common.

I prefer to work on panels out of the sun, out of the snow out of the rain out of the cold etc.

My own panel is in the basement.

That being said I have no particular issue against NEMA 3R panels installed outside. I install 3R disconnects all the time and yes they will eventually rust.

A 3R in Arizona will probably last forever, a 3R at the chloride factory will be gone tomorrow.

It would be nice if they could make the paint on a 3R a bit more durable.

[bkludecke]

Hi John, hope to see ya next week at the IAEI meeting.

Bob on the left coast.

[cowboyjwc]

I'm planning on being there, but you can never tell.