Pricing Question....6,500 sq ft

[radiopet]

Hey Guys,

I have been pricing for years but for some reason I am having a time getting a comfortable price on a bid I am working on. Figured you all might assist. Here are the specs....tell me what you all would come up with...

(2) 200A Panels ( 400A Service )
(250') 2/0 THHN/THWN ( yes it has to be copper on this one)
(1) 100A Sub-Panel
(80') 2-2-2-4 SER (edit- sorry )
(153) Duplex Receptacles ( 17 of which are 1/2 switched )
(86) Single Poles ( random box's 3g and 4 g and single g...)
(53) 3-ways
(8) 4-ways
(104) 75W Recess Lights w/ trim and par 38
(24) 2'x2' Flourescent Drop In Lights
(8) 2'x4' Flourescent Surface Mount w/ wrap around
(49) 4" Round Nail up Light Boxes
(1) Dryer - 10/3 w/g 85'
(6) AFCI Breakers
(22) 15A Breakers (1P)
(8) 20A Breakers (1P)
(3) 30A Breakers ( 2P)
(4) 60A Breakers (2P)

Well.....most certainly that is not all....but what I wanted is based on your guys experience and my nearly 20 years.....am I in the ball park with a bid of $ 17,000 on this one....compare it to any you all may have done in the 6,500 sq ft range.....

Ok...and if not enough info...sorry.......I figured it was enough to get some opinions on the basic pricing....oh and yes 10' ceilings all over.

[LarryFine]

Opinions, in no particular order:

Shouldn't that 80' of SER be 2-2-2-4? If it's aluminum, it's not rated for 100a anywhere except main service/feeders.

The price is too low, unless it's labor only. You can certainly price materials yourself, and let us know what you come up with.

I'd need a lot more info on the HVAC than the 30a and 60a 2-pole breakers. In fact, the kitchen, too.

Are you a 1-man show?

[radiopet]

Sorry....Larry...it was supposed to be 2-2-2-4...Typed it wrong...

Man I feel like I would loose this one at that price...and 500 homes possibly could come my way IF I am not overpriced is the reason I posted it...Thank you SO much for you input...and being you are also in VA...it helps alot..

I am a 3 man show Larry.....but the price I has was not including

AC Units
There is a GAS range
Pool wiring & Subpanel for that

It does include Material and recess lights and drop in lights...yes I priced those at cost.....so....just given the info here....what would you price it.

The kitchen is basic, again only a gas cooktop...but will have a double oven and (2) dishwahers....also the 400A service seemed small..but again the only loads really are the AC units and massive recess lights...lol

Sad to say...My roughly $ 17,000 is for (1) electrican and (1) helper....so do you really think it is low.......?

[bkludecke]

Out here and up here (elevation 6700') we would price the job at nearly twice that. But there are too many variables to help you out in this forum ie, I can't find a decent residential electrician for less than $25/hr + benefits, and they don't seemto move as fast as I think I once did. I'd plan on 3 guys (or gals), 12-14 days to rough in and 6-7 days to finish + materials.

Bob on the left coast.

[radiopet]

Hey Bob,

I hear ya fella....the reason I posted this is I use ConEst software and if is fine on the smaller jobs ( 3,500 sq. ft and less ) but when it gets to these larger ones.....heck I dont know....

Really the house may be large...but very basic except for wanting CRAP LOADS of recess lights......

Heck I can't even compute the load for the service because I am being asked to price it without the AC information ( 5 units I believe )....and no specs on the pool..which is gas heated BTW.....

So they know the price could be higher...they just want a price for the basics of it right now......so I figured (2) 200A panels (400A service ) should do it.........but again assuming without all the info....

And yes...I dont like pricing without the info...BUT this is a HUGE builder and a very nice guy as well.....I want all his business...so I want to be right spot on with the first one....

[hardworkingstiff]

....and they don't seemto move as fast as I think I once did.

Isn't that the truth. Of course I don't move as fast as I used to. 50 lbs heaver and 30 years older. Sucks!

[LarryFine]

I am comparing this to the last big house (about 3700 sq.ft.) I did, in Williamsburg. Our base price (not including extras, which there were plenty of) was $15K, labor only; the customer supplied materials, or reimbursed us for that which we provided.

If I had the choice, I'd do jobs like this, with customer-supplied materials, any time. It was such a pleasure to not have to shop for best prices, and everything we requested magically appeared the next day, and the customer was happy to avoid mark-up.


Just to brag a bit, we passed rough and final on the first try (we were the only trade on the job that did), and had no shorts. We did have to do a bit of drywalled-over box-hunts and patching, both of which we got paid extra for.


Anyway, I need more info to give a further opinion, and I'd say you do, too.

[radiopet]

Larry,

I have been a contractor for nearly 18 years...I have never made $ 15,000 in labor on a 3,800 sq ft house....thats AWESOME fella.....

Heck as my brother always says......we dont make money in residential but again I dont work with my brother anymore and I want to make money on residential...lol

I sure wish I could talk him into the material thing.......I may fly it by the builder but they like the "give me a price" approach.....

While this house is large.......other than the possibly (5) HVAC units and (104) recess lights......along with basics here and their.....I think a 400A service is the right size...again I dont have all the specs...but I did standard calc. using 50,000VA as the heating...and still was only 336 amps...and I threw in a few additional things..because I simply did not know....

Never had someone ask me to do this...well this way before...

But his business will take my business to the next level IF I price it right....

[LarryFine]

While this house is large.......other than the possibly (5) HVAC units and (104) recess lights......along with basics here and their.....I think a 400A service is the right size...again I dont have all the specs...but I did standard calc. using 50,000VA as the heating...and still was only 336 amps...and I threw in a few additional things..because I simply did not know....
Our house was about 160 recessed lights, but only three HVAC units.

Keep in mind that most POCO "400-amp" services are really 320 amps.

But his business will take my business to the next level IF I price it right....
The concern is that you don't end up at the wrong next level with a commitment to stay there for a long time. 200 x no profit is still no profit. Plus, you'll be exhausted.

[bikeindy]

Out here and up here (elevation 6700') we would price the job at nearly twice that. But there are too many variables to help you out in this forum ie, I can't find a decent residential electrician for less than $25/hr + benefits, and they don't seemto move as fast as I think I once did. I'd plan on 3 guys (or gals), 12-14 days to rough in and 6-7 days to finish + materials.

Bob on the left coast.

Really 3 electricians take 12 -14 days for 6700 Sq Ft? Just finished a 6800 last friday with a crew of me + 2 helpers and finished in 6 days. Job was simular to the one here and my price was just a little higher we had about half as many Recessed lights though. I think a little fire under the you know what is needed at your place.

[radiopet]

Larry,

Yeah, the local POCO said they have both options...either 320 or true 400...to which above that we are taking CT's and well I just dont think it needs to go beyond the 400A service.....

Again....that was factoring 50,000VA for heating....100%...and well he has a large garage we will do later..which will have it's own 200A service.

Also I agree.....the pricing will be different on each house...but this is the first one......which happens to be his personal house as well...so you can see why I am re-thinking the figures here....for some reason $ 17,000 did not seem right.....on all levels..

[radiopet]

Bik,

Crew of (3).....ME and (2) helpers...one of which is licensed as well...but lacks what I call DRIVE..........if you know what I mean.

[radiopet]

bikeindy,

May I ask what your calc. was for your service.....since probably the HVAC will be very close to what you did...and I dont have that info YET.....

Yeah....they went a bit overboard on the recess...thank GOD for diversity in circuits...

[Kessler4130]

The price seems really low just from pricing your outlets and lighting, I have done the bargain bin price for a contractor on thier own house before, under false pretenses that they are gonna throw so much work your way you won't know what to do. Needless to say it never worked out like that, sure they had some work, but not nearly enough to make up for the what was knocked off the work done at thier house.

[bkludecke]

Just remember that if you give a bargain price on the first one, they think they are getting screwed when you actually try and make a buck.

I'm not pretenting that my crew is fast (maybe half-ast). But up here in the shackey moutains of So. Cal. with earthquake framing, no such thing as a level lot, wood siding up before we show up and working the gruelling 5-hour work days; it just takes more time to wire a house up here.

Bob on the left coast.

[romexking]

RadioPet,

Many of us have made the same mistake that you are considering jumping into right now...that is adjusting your current price for the "I have more work for you later if this price is good" customer. You have been in business long enough to know that this is standard operating procedure for general contractors. A question that commonly gets overlooked is what happened to the last electrical contractor for this GC? Did he make sooooo much money that he could retire? Or could it be that the GC helped him into early retirement in another fashion?

As everyone has stated, your price is too low...way too low. With just the items you have listed and the nm to go with it, you have around $8,000 in material. Plus there are plenty of things not listed. I'm sure you will have a ton of smoke detectors, a few AHU's, pool pumps (a house of this size will probably have a panel at the equipment pad), exterior lighting, ect. These items that are not spelled out before the work starts will be a problem later. You may have the wrong wiring (or none at all), and you will lose productivity by trying to hunt down the proper information.

If the contractor wants a deal and you are interested in working for him/her, propose a discount amount from your regular, profit minded price. When you reach an amount you both are comfortable with, suggest that on all future work, a certain percentage discount will be given until the agreed upon price is reached. There is no reason that you should take the risk of giving a discount up front and not getting the future work. He is not doing you any favors by letting you work on his home, it is a mutually beneficial business arrangement, so I don't suggest the discount at all.

I am sure this contractor understands how job pricing works...from his point of view..."how can I get them to reduce their price so I can make more money? Before agreeing to a price, by all means speak to his other subcontractors (the owners) to see how long they have been working for him and how quickly he pays.

At the risk of rambling on, I again would ask you "what happened to the last guy?" It is a very important question that should be answered to your satisfaction BEFORE signing an agreement with this customer.

I'm sorry for the long post, and good luck, I hope it works out well for you.

Rich

[JOHNEO99]

Hello

I dont know what you are paying these employees but based on the square footage alone that price is low.

Its Generals like the one you are talking about that hurt our industry and make the markets full of cut throat inexperienced electricians.

No Deal

[LarryFine]

RadioPet, Many of us have made the same mistake that you are considering jumping into right now...that is adjusting your current price for the "I have more work for you later if this price is good" customer.
Right on! Tell them that you'll be glad to work out a deal if and when and if the big pot materializes. Can you pay your bills the same way? "Give me a discount now, and I'll pay full price for the electricity if I like it." Unless you need the practice, get paid fairly for your work.

Concentrate on this job right now; you don't even have enough info to do a real load calc or materials cost yet. Worry about the next job after this one is at least in motion. Remember, you're still being educated right now; don't make far-reaching decisions yet.

In this case, you really need to do it the old-fashioned way: you need to make a complete and accurate materials list. To do this, you need several copies of the plans and colored pens or pencils for layouts and accurate device counts. I'll bet you're estimating low right now.

Your homework is very important. Talk to all of the other trades, especially the HVAC; you need the actual nameplate data for every piece. Humidifiers? Condensate lift pumps? Also, service-equipment receptacles within 25' and on same level as every piece, and lighting indoors?

The plumber will know the specific for anything he's doing that needs power, such as a foundation or basement sump pump. Even some gas water heaters need electricity. Appliances have lights and fans. Microwave? Kitchen cabinet lighting?

Feel free to call me if you want, day or evening. PM me for my number. Here's a PDF of Dominion's Load Letter (http://www.dom.com/customer/pdf/load_letter.pdf), and here's a PDF of the Dominion Power Blue Book (http://www.dom.com/customer/pdf/bluebook.pdf)

[bikeindy]

bikeindy,

May I ask what your calc. was for your service.....since probably the HVAC will be very close to what you did...and I dont have that info YET.....

Yeah....they went a bit overboard on the recess...thank GOD for diversity in circuits...

my guy is going with GAS heat so we had 2 HVAC units for cooling only. my calc was 280 Amps. This was also a contractors home a guy I have been doing work for for 4 years so he knows my pricing and I gave him a deal. Like others have said you will have them trying to keep you down on everyother price. my guy said after there were some adjustments for extras, "Man my wife won't be able to get that chandaleer she wanted now are we sure the price is right." which I replied' " it is so low I am not sure I will be able to take my wife out to burger king like i promised her after working on the 4th of july."

so the others here are right on with the comments about GC's

[Kessler4130]

A question that commonly gets overlooked is what happened to the last electrical contractor for this GC? Did he make sooooo much money that he could retire? Or could it be that the GC helped him into early retirement in another fashion?

I cannot tell you how many times we have heard that, and it always tends to lean more towards the last EC quit doing work for them before it's all said and done. One contractor told us he fired his EC for tracking mud into his house, well every job we did for him he would disapear without paying us until he needed another job done, well the last job "service upgrade" was over 6 months ago and he is not answering his phone, not returning messages and ofcourse hasn't paid up.

[Minuteman]

Oh the subject of GCs, yuck. Sorta like working for a pimp. If you make them lots of money - they love you. But even still, many will still flirt with a new fresh face with sweet talk of getting all the good work.

[bkludecke]

Once opon a time I had a GC (of questionable reputation) ask me to bid a new home low because he was going to build 22 of these (1400sqft) houses so the volume and cash flow should work out for me. I told him that I would wire them for my standard price and that I would do #22 for free! He went for it and we actually did 14 of them before he went in the tank. I did the last one for 1/2 price.

Bob on the left coast.

[radiopet]

RadioPet,

Many of us have made the same mistake that you are considering jumping into right now...that is adjusting your current price for the "I have more work for you later if this price is good" customer. You have been in business long enough to know that this is standard operating procedure for general contractors. A question that commonly gets overlooked is what happened to the last electrical contractor for this GC? Did he make sooooo much money that he could retire? Or could it be that the GC helped him into early retirement in another fashion?

As everyone has stated, your price is too low...way too low. With just the items you have listed and the nm to go with it, you have around $8,000 in material. Plus there are plenty of things not listed. I'm sure you will have a ton of smoke detectors, a few AHU's, pool pumps (a house of this size will probably have a panel at the equipment pad), exterior lighting, ect. These items that are not spelled out before the work starts will be a problem later. You may have the wrong wiring (or none at all), and you will lose productivity by trying to hunt down the proper information.

If the contractor wants a deal and you are interested in working for him/her, propose a discount amount from your regular, profit minded price. When you reach an amount you both are comfortable with, suggest that on all future work, a certain percentage discount will be given until the agreed upon price is reached. There is no reason that you should take the risk of giving a discount up front and not getting the future work. He is not doing you any favors by letting you work on his home, it is a mutually beneficial business arrangement, so I don't suggest the discount at all.

I am sure this contractor understands how job pricing works...from his point of view..."how can I get them to reduce their price so I can make more money? Before agreeing to a price, by all means speak to his other subcontractors (the owners) to see how long they have been working for him and how quickly he pays.

At the risk of rambling on, I again would ask you "what happened to the last guy?" It is a very important question that should be answered to your satisfaction BEFORE signing an agreement with this customer.

I'm sorry for the long post, and good luck, I hope it works out well for you.

Rich

Rich,

Their is not guy before me, he is a new to the area but a huge builder from where he came from. So it is not an issue of what happened to the last builder. The guys is a super guy.......I trust him which is rare for GC...but he is straight up and just wants a ballpark to see if we are on the same page....I felt the $ 17,000 roughly was too low....but since I have not priced a 6,500 sq ft I was not sure and wanted something to guage it to.

[radiopet]

Your homework is very important. Talk to all of the other trades, especially the HVAC; you need the actual nameplate data for every piece. Humidifiers? Condensate lift pumps? Also, service-equipment receptacles within 25' and on same level as every piece, and lighting indoors?

The plumber will know the specific for anything he's doing that needs power, such as a foundation or basement sump pump. Even some gas water heaters need electricity. Appliances have lights and fans. Microwave? Kitchen cabinet lighting?


Larry,

As I stated I am trying to ballpark this as we know very well and informed me it will be more he is sure and will not haggle I am sure....but he wanted me to give him a base rounded idea now....so I was kinda just searching for view points on my pricing....if based even on the minimum info I listed...was I considered too low...that was really all ..

The POCO does not have a 600A option here in meter and we are limited in space as well......based on the assumption which is not set in stone I figured a 400A service would do fine...again that will be final calc. when I have all the info...right now the base pricing is what i am not trusting the Conest Software on right now......again 3,800 sq ft and less...not a problem.....6,500 sq ft...for me....uncharted pricing ground.

[cesenergy]

Way to cheap should at least be around 25,000.00 minimum

[cesenergy]

National Construction Estimator gives a rule of thumb price of 4.01 per square foot dependeing on your area I would not bid less than $27,000

[radiopet]

HOLLY SMACK......guess it shocks me because I am accustom to doing homes 3,500 and less.....simply to think residential job in my area would be $ 25,000 just seems OVERBOARD.....wow.....

amazing...I bid all the time and answer support question and teach electrical training and am a NEC Consultant....but when it came to pricing my OWN large job.......MAN was I way off......

So...do you ever consider anything in pricing for location...Electricians around here get $ 14.00 hr and no benefits.....now I get more obviously it is my company...but thats what the normal electrician is being paid...

So with that said...are you still saying $ 25,000.....Dont get me wrong fella...i LOVE that figure.....just seems excessive....but again If I really knew I would not be asking you guys for your help...SO trust me I am going back to the drawing board on this......

[celtic]

National Construction Estimator gives a rule of thumb price of 4.01 per square foot dependeing on your area...
What page is that on?
I have to confess...even though I've been using TNE since '96...I never read any of it - strictly material time and price :rolleyes:

[radiopet]

What page is that on?
I have to confess...even though I've been using TNE since '96...I never read any of it - strictly material time and price :rolleyes:

Wish it was that simple here in this case...I love the T & M jobs.

I like ConEst but.......as stated once it gets up over 3,800 sq ft....the pricing on it starts to go IFFY.....

I also have the National Estimator.....used it before I got ConEst so it would be easier..and guess what.....as stated even ConEst is hard to get used to on large homes.

[77401]

I'm at right under $25,000 plus cans.
400 amp/ two 200amp 40 circuit panels is the right size.

Figure if you can do it with cans for under $20K you should be able to get more than 500 more at that price.
Then you can file your business as a 501c charity non profit!

[radiopet]

lol....very funny 77401....lol...very funny...lol

Look if I wanted to GIVE it away I would have just priced it at what I had...lol...thats why I posted it here...lol...for feedback..;)

[satcom]

Some are shocked to see the prices, talking to GC about a just completed home in the area 7,200 sq electrical was estimated at 92,000, completed job came in at 120,000, and the AV job was $270,000, the closets alone were 60K, custom homes that size are all different, but i belive he said they were building more of these homes, so after you do the first one, you can establish a sq ft price for it, i agree with the idea, of asking your full price for the first one.

[radiopet]

Update- Larry you were 100% right.....I redid the entire job the OLD way and well.....I gave the guy a price and he did not question it.....now only 499 more to go.

[rpm]

I have read all the posts on this subject and agree with nearly all of them -especially the ones about GC's. Don't know about ya'lls area but around here if someone wants to be a GC, he goes to City Hall, hands over $75.00 and presto, he's a GC! No test, no questions.
I, too, have Conest and I plugged in the basics that radiopet supplied. I applied overhead and profit and came up with $27,500.00. That's with two electricians and a helper. This is a very basic price. A house of this square footage will require a lot more material and labor than that. A house that size will require a lot more amenities which will come in the form of the GC saying periodically, "While you're at it..." with no thought of add on or substitution pricing.
I'd quote the full price plus 10% and negotiate.

[radiopet]

RPM,

you say you use Conest.....are you subscribed to Tracer or other updating pricing company.....I end up changing mine by hand and it is a pain.....figured I would see what others are doing that use Conest.

BTW....I figured on (2) employees...(1) Electrician and (1) Helper

[amptech]

I ran my figures for what you listed in the original post and came up with $24,755.00. I know it will be higher because I didn't see any bath exhaust fans, smokes, telephone, CATV, or A/C. A house that large is usually a custom home with custom tweeking of the electrical involved. The total bill from the sparky will come nearer to $30K, ceiling fans and luminaires not included. When folks building a house that big whine about the cost of the electric I tell them to build it in Lancaster, PA with the rest of the Amish.

[Minuteman]

I ran my figures for what you listed in the original post and came up with $24,755.00. I know it will be higher because I didn't see any bath exhaust fans, smokes, telephone, CATV, or A/C. A house that large is usually a custom home with custom tweeking of the electrical involved. The total bill from the sparky will come nearer to $30K, ceiling fans and luminaires not included. When folks building a house that big whine about the cost of the electric I tell them to build it in Lancaster, PA with the rest of the Amish.

That equals $3.80 a ft/2. We have been getting $4 - $4.50 on customs. (Now before anybody jumps me, I figure the take off first and check the ft/2 as a personnel interest.) Point is OP figured $17,000 WITH 10' ceilings :confused:

[radiopet]

prices are different in every area.....we are not doing TV's and Tel and this was base pricing......it has since been quoted at $ 25,000.00 and it was more like 5,000 sq ft once i redid it.....

Again...the OP..which is ME said that price was based on really what I listed....it was never set in stone...

[j_erickson]

I'm just catching up on this thread, but from experience, I'd ballpark this job at $30,000 - $35,000.

[radiopet]

I talked to another local EC and told him the same house I priced at $ 25,000 BASE and they had a heart attack practically...said I was $ 4,000 over priced and he would do it for much less.....and his company is no a hack....

So I guess it depends on the area...

[j_erickson]

I have a very detailed proposal for a home which is around 4000 square feet of which a small portion is finished basement. It was done when 14/2 romex was around $130/ 1000 and 12/2 about $220/1000. It was for a new builder so is extremely detailed, more so than my usual invoices. I'm not sure how to post it, but could e-mail it if you wanted to take a look. House had 200 amp service, 2 AC systems, about 50 recessed. It was about $18,000.

John

[radiopet]

John,

I would love a copy to put against what I have.

[j_erickson]

Radio, I'll e-mail it.

[77401]

I talked to another local EC and told him the same house I priced at $ 25,000 BASE and they had a heart attack practically...said I was $ 4,000 over priced and he would do it for much less.....and his company is no a hack....

So I guess it depends on the area...

Radio,
It does depend on the area, but the are has nothing to do with the fact that new residintial is alway the lowest paying, lowest margin of all our work, this is where most new EC's try to make a $ & learn its not worth it.
You did a 4 year apprenticeship to learn to be an Electrician.
Now, you have a 10 year apprenticeship to learn the contracting side of the business.
One thing I can advise is this, you should have a price at which, you will do anything, Call it a price menu just like the hookers do. Know your price, quote it & hope you get "your price" not some others price. I bid everything, and some of it I know I will be too high. So I don't spend much time on those bids, but occasionally I get them.

Moderators note; I removed an inappropriate link. Bob