Just Hook Up These Few Circuits, Please

[busman]

This happens to me a few times a year. I get a call from someone who has "wired a few new circuits" in the house and "just needs them hooked into the panel". I was wondering how others handle this.

Update: I had posted this question because I had a call like that this morning. I told the HO (wife, her husband did the wiring) that I was not comfortable hooking-up work done by others (even other electricians). She was very polite and we ended the call. She just called back. She discussed this with her husband and decided that they will have me remove all the existing work and start from scratch. This is a first.

[bkludecke]

We live in a resort town and "weekend wariors" pull this crap all the time. I usually refuse the job or bid it so high I can redo everything anyway. I figure that if we connect someone else's work to a branch circuit, we are assuming the libility if something goes wrong. I've been building my company (and reputation) for 28+ years and I'm not about to see it go down the drain just because someone is trying to save a buck. There is always the exception but not very often.

Bob on the left coast.

[jeff43222]

Last year, I was hired to do a service upgrade for a guy who was doing a full-gut remodel of his house. I did the service and also installed laundry, dryer, and panelboard receptacles in the basement. To save money, the guy did all of the other wiring in the house himself, with no permit.

He called me back because he wanted me to install some outdoor stuff on circuits he installed. I flat-out refused. I could see that the wiring work he did was not code-compliant, and there was no way I was going to touch it. I advised him to pull a HO permit and have his work inspected. He decided not to do that because he doesn't want to spend more time/money fixing whatever the inspector tags.

When I was new at this, I agreed to do a job where the HO roughed in a basement but didn't feel comfortable at the panel. I wound up spending more time fixing all of his bad wiring than I would have if I had wired the place from scratch myself. Lesson learned.

[hey_poolboy]

One of my very first jobs was similar to that. HO wired the newly finshed basement, but didn't want to terminate the panel.
I did the job, and consequently had to add a sub to accomodate his overkill. (he had almost every receptacle dedicated)
There has never been a problem with the job, but in hindsight I wish I had not been so greedy. I think about that job all the time, hoping nothing ever goes wrong.
Now I just tell them I'm not comfortable with that.

[LarryFine]

Fifth choice: First inspect all work at usual rate, repair anything necessary at rate, and then connect to panel, also at rate.

[petersonra]

This happens to me a few times a year. I get a call from someone who has "wired a few new circuits" in the house and "just needs them hooked into the panel". I was wondering how others handle this.

Update: I had posted this question because I had a call like that this morning. I told the HO (wife, her husband did the wiring) that I was not comfortable hooking-up work done by others (even other electricians). She was very polite and we ended the call. She just called back. She discussed this with her husband and decided that they will have me remove all the existing work and start from scratch. This is a first.

I think some of this is coming from the DIY shows. they actually recommend this as a way of making sure your wiring is done correctly.

I can see doing this with exposed Romex. Setting the boxes, pulling the Romex and securing it to the studs is not so scary, but actually hooking up the devices scares some people. Personally, I would not want anything to do with a deal like this if I was an EC, and could understand turning it down. If I were an EC and got such a call, I would want the cost of a service trip plus T&M for my trouble.

[celtic]

Fifth choice: First inspect all work at usual rate, repair anything necessary at rate, and then connect to panel, also at rate.

...and have them sign a waiver.

[77401]

For a price I'll hook up anything!
But it is my price!
For a price I'll wash their cars!

[petersonra]

...and have them sign a waiver.

a waiver of what?

ask your lawyer how much a waiver is worth in court. you might be surprised to find out it may actually increase your liability exposure, especially if you only use them on rare occasions.

the logic goes like this.

Regardless of the waiver form, you as a professional contracted to perform a service. Presumably you are competent to do that work. So why do you need a waiver? It is just evidence you expected trouble with the work you did.

the plain fact is you should not do any work you are not confident in. and if you do, you deserve to be sued down the road.

[Minuteman]

a waiver of what?

... the plain fact is you should not do any work you are not confident in. and
if you do, you deserve to be sued down the road.

OUCH! That might hurt!

[satcom]

"Regardless of the waiver form, you as a professional contracted to perform a service. Presumably you are competent to do that work. So why do you need a waiver? It is just evidence you expected trouble with the work you did."


We got that message loud and clear, when the customer filed a claim with their insurance company, and the insurance company came after us, as you said, waver can mean more problems not less, when you issue a waver, as a professional, you lay claim to the waved conditions, when i took the contract to the attorney, his first question was, who put the waver clause in here, i thought i was protecting myself.

What most homeowners don't understand, is when they do work without a permit, their homeowners insurance may no longer be whole, big gamble on a large asset like a home.

[e57]

Was the work permited? No.... Was it inspected? No.... Will I hook it up? NO!~

Would I be liable for it? Yes

If Hubby had the nerve to go start the job, Hubby had better finish his mess himself. Then get his wife to sweet talk someone else to finish, well thats cheesey.......... Doesn't have the nerve to stand behind his &%$#, has the wife do it for him. ICK!

Now if the walls are open, and they started it, and not rocked, it might be a diffent story... T&M (No limit) to inspect and correct, get permits and inspections. But no free lessons.... With contract to finish paid up front so the cheapskates cant weasle out of it, as it would then be my permit.

[Riograndeelectric]

I did service change for a homeowner who needed panel upgraded for new furnace and new central a/c unit. old panel was 100a FPE chnged out service to 150 amp. I get a call form the homeowners wife the next year asking me to come by and and meet with her contractor to adivise him on how many circuits he would need and if panel could handle new circuits for lighting and outlets that were being added for Basement finsh. it turns out her Contractor was doing electrical work him self with no permit he wasnt sure how many circuits he needed etc.

I told homeowners wife that no way would I come by to meet with her contractor. I told her that her contractor should not be doing electrical work and that they should have Permit.

I just love Contractors who think they are Electricians

I should have droped the dime on the homeowner and called Inspector.

[wildman]

Riograndeelectric.....you really popped that breaker...
You should turn them in to the inspector....if the HO wants to do his/her own electrical, then they have to follow the rules....secure the permit and have their work inspected.....I talked with the local inspector the other day...a HO secured a permit and called for a rough inspection....had quite a few red tags....inspector came back for a second rough inspection ($50 fee)...HO still had not corrected all the problems.....inspector came back for the third, fourth, fifth rough inspection...(all at $50 a pop)...the HO finally got it right....inspector came back for the final....only had to come back twice on the final ($50 a pop)....Only cost an extra $300 in inspection fees and an extra 5 weeks to get the power on..(inspectors are busy, cannot just be sittin around waiting on a particular call)...It is legal around here for the HO to do their wiring....it is illegal to work without a permit and inspectons...
Turn them in!!!

[Riograndeelectric]

It is ilegal to do work with out a permit here too.

but as the inspectors are so busy they dont have time to patroll and seewho is doing work with out permit.

I am doing a service change and adding a coupl of outlets and 1 light.


Home owenr just bought house 7 months ago house was built in 1930. previous home owner thought he was electrician, plumber & contractor all in one. New home owner had house inspected by home inspector but he missed so much.

Basement was finshed and new outlets tied into old 2 wire circuts with new 3 wire outlets installed.

circuits are over loaded . new luandry room does not have dedicated circuit as well as new bath room.

Home owner know relizes he got F----D .

I think home inspectors should be made to have experince in all trades have to take electrical, hvac, plumbing and construction test by city/state.

I tell all my customers that the work I do needs a permit.

I also ask customer if they are looking for the cheapest price on work if they tell me yes then I tell them to find some one else and walk away..

[jeff43222]

Riograndeelectric.....you really popped that breaker...
You should turn them in to the inspector....if the HO wants to do his/her own electrical, then they have to follow the rules....secure the permit and have their work inspected.....I talked with the local inspector the other day...a HO secured a permit and called for a rough inspection....had quite a few red tags....inspector came back for a second rough inspection ($50 fee)...HO still had not corrected all the problems.....inspector came back for the third, fourth, fifth rough inspection...(all at $50 a pop)...the HO finally got it right....inspector came back for the final....only had to come back twice on the final ($50 a pop)....Only cost an extra $300 in inspection fees and an extra 5 weeks to get the power on..(inspectors are busy, cannot just be sittin around waiting on a particular call)...It is legal around here for the HO to do their wiring....it is illegal to work without a permit and inspectons...
Turn them in!!!

This is all well and good when you have a HO who is wiring his new house and needs an official OK from an inspector before the PoCo will connect their wires. But most of the shoddy work I come across is done in houses where there is already a PoCo connection, so the work is done by DIYers and other handymen with no permit or inspection.

Sure, it's illegal to do electrical work without a permit/inspection, but unless you're installing a brand-new service, it's pretty easy to get away with ignoring the law. Just last week I looked at a house where the HO "upgraded" his 60A panel to 100A without permit/inspection (and without changing the mast wires), and now he wants me to pull a permit and fix his mistakes. Pass.

[77401]

T Just last week I looked at a house where the HO "upgraded" his 60A panel to 100A without permit/inspection (and without changing the mast wires), and now he wants me to pull a permit and fix his mistakes. Pass.

WHy Pass?
Give him your normal price for a complete Service change with all new materials.
Remove everything he has done & start over from scratch.
Ya never know he may go for it.

[jeff43222]

I am doing a service change and adding a coupl of outlets and 1 light.

Home owenr just bought house 7 months ago house was built in 1930. previous home owner thought he was electrician, plumber & contractor all in one. New home owner had house inspected by home inspector but he missed so much.

I think home inspectors should be made to have experince in all trades have to take electrical, hvac, plumbing and construction test by city/state.

That will never happen. I can't imagine someone spending all the time necessary to get qualified in all those areas, and then deciding to work as a home inspector.

How about this idea: Instead of a generic "home inspector" looking at a house and missing lots of stuff, have the inspections done by licensed tradespeople. Seems to me if you want your electrical system inspected, have it done by a licensed electrician. Licensed plumbers could look at the plumbing, HVAC guys look at HVAC, etc. Of course, this will never happen, either, since no one is going to want to shell out the money necessary for all those inspections.

You get what you pay for. Too bad so many people don't know this.

[jeff43222]

WHy Pass?
Give him your normal price for a complete Service change with all new materials.
Remove everything he has done & start over from scratch.
Ya never know he may go for it.

This particular guy was obviously lacking in funds (he said so), and he kept bugging me about teaching him about the electrical trade and the code. I mean, he was really persistent and seemed to think he could convince me to hire him on some kind of work-study program. Communication was a problem, too; my Spanish is not so bueno.

The whole job looked like a major PITA. I have enough headaches already.

[wildman]

Jeff, you turned him in,right?...upgraded his own service from 60 to 100...no permit or inspection....Have you ever turned someone in?...The first time is always the most difficult!

[jeff43222]

I've turned in plenty of handymen and others for illegally advertising electrical work. The state takes prompt action, and the guy in charge of enforcement even sends me messages from time to time showing me what he's up to, and thanking me for bringing all the hacks' ads to his attention. The ads then either get changed or dropped altogether. I know I won't stop all the hacks, but I'm going to do what I can to make sure they don't advertise where I do.

As for turning in customers or potential customers, that's a bit trickier. It's a big conflict of interest for me, as I'm pretty sure anyone I would turn in is not going to be interested in hiring me after I send the AHJ after them. And if word were to spread that if someone has me come out for an estimate, they better be sure I don't see anything suspicious because I'll probably turn them in, I think my business could come to a grinding halt. In this case, the guy was sincerely interested in having me make things right. Also, when I called the inspector and ran the scenario past him, he didn't ask me for the address, so he apparently doesn't see a pressing need to send out the troops.

Anyway, if he ever puts the house on the market, he'll get nailed by the truth-in-housing inspector. The AHJ in his city is very strict, and they are very good at detecting when hack work has been done. In those situations, the city requires the HO to hire a licensed EC to inspect and sign off on whatever the truth-in-housing inspector finds, and he'll have no choice but to make the installation code compliant at that time. Interestingly enough, the EC can fix the problems and then sign off on his own work!

[JohnME]

"the truth-in-housing inspector finds"

What exactly is this? My house was never checked that I know of, I just bought it one year ago. I am guilty of adding my own electrical additions within my own home, I am a real electrician mind you, but I didnt pull a permit to hook up my spa, add exterior lights, or exterior receps, or change out every device and light in the house.

I dont think my area does this check, even so I guess I could sign off on my own house if the time came!

[jeff43222]

Around these parts, if you want to put your house on the market, you have to have it inspected first. These are generally called something like "truth in housing" or "time of sale" inspections. Depending on the jurisdiction, the inspector might be a city employee, or it might be a private contractor licensed to do these inspections. The report must be filed with the city and made available to any prospective buyer. If there are any items listed as required repairs, they must be taken care of within a certain period of time of closing.

In the jurisdiction in question, the inspectors are city employees, and my experience with them is that they are thorough and very good at finding electrical work that was done without a permit.

[satcom]

As an electrical contractor, i have never added any wiring to my home without a permit, i value my largest investement, my home, and would never consider risking it all, to save a few dollars for a permit, my homeowners policy requires permits, and inspections.

[JohnME]

Well, I happen to have confidence in my work ;)

[satcom]

"Well, I happen to have confidence in my work "

It has nothing to do with your work ability, i am sure you do excellant work, permits, and inspections, are required by most insurance companies, to keep your policy whole, cities, and towns, do not have permits and inspections, to make money. in most cases they break even, or loose money operating code enforcement, also some worry, their taxes will go up, this concern is a throw back, from the 50's when construction permit costs were left on the books, today they have revaluation mandated, so the tax charge for improvements becomes a wash after 5 years in most areas.

It's the insurance underwriters that require inspections, so they can adjust risk.

[wildman]

OK, Jeff.....the potential customer/trainee spoke spanish.....You are going to see a lot more of this....your best bet is to take a conversational spanish course at your local college or tech school....next, customer did not have much mucho....about 99% of my customers are flat broke and want a whopping big discount....live in $500,000 houses and cannot afford to pay the pool guy!! Yea, right! Give the guy a bid to redue his mess-up or just walk away.....AS far as hurting my business by turning in someone.....I have to sleep at night....The inspector/authority has been notified of the problem...whether they react is no longer my concern! WILDMAN

[Minuteman]

........next, customer did not have much mucho....

Yeah, your best bet is to take a conversational spanish course at your local college or tech school too. :rolleyes:

[jeff43222]

I have no interest in re-learning my forgotten high-school Spanish or any more foreign languages. It's just not worth the trouble. There are plenty of immigrants in this area who don't speak Spanish but speak Lao, Cambodian, Hmong, Vietnamese, Somali, Russian, etc. I'm not about to learn all those languages. I have a hard enough time discussing electrical work with people in English.

Besides, Señor DIY told me that lots of his compadres do illegal electrical work, so I'm guessing that few in the Spanish-speaking community are looking to pay electrician rates when they can get one of their amigos to do the work on the cheap.

[Minuteman]

Jeff - I"m with you. Immigrants from all over are here as well, and I believe that English is the language of out great country. I just think it would be good for Wildman to take a course in Spanish. He seems to have a much mucho difficulty with it. :D

[wildman]

Jeff and Minuteman....did not realize the subject was so touchy....do not want the "mod" squad to come down hard on me for getting into politics so I will end it here....thanks for your response!....by the way....minuteman.....jalapenos ....much dinero....wildman

[LarryFine]

. . the "mod" squad . . .

That's funny! :D

[bjp_ne_elec]

I would want to get in to more detail, then just telling them I'm not comfortable with hooking up someone else's work - heck it's my license at stake, and I've dealt with some people, and due to their nature (trying to get something for nothing), it is hard at times to stay polite.

Brett

[wildman]

Jeff and Minuteman....I did not intend to get off on the wrong foot.....I have been very busy since july 26....I will try and be brief and too the point....
At Mike Holt .com.....far left corner....where you click on "code forum"...keep looking down....."code quiz".....Continuous education....."Espanol"...click on Espanol....this will take you to www.cyamsa.com....I believe this to be Spanish!! If Mike Holt cares enough to include this site on his, it would not hurt to learn a little conversational spanish to attempt to read it....not trying to be rude, just curious.....No vietnamese or Russian....only Spanish!...Thanks for letting me into your hearts!! Wildman

[iwire]

We are not going to discuss the pros and cons of learning another language here on the code forum.

Feel free to continue the discussion via private messaging.

Bob

[Minuteman]

Jeff and Minuteman....I did not intend to get off on the wrong foot.....I have been very busy since july 26....I will try and be brief and too the point....
At Mike Holt .com.....far left corner....where you click on "code forum"...keep looking down....."code quiz".....Continuous education....."Espanol"...click on Espanol....this will take you to www.cyamsa.com....I believe this to be Spanish!! If Mike Holt cares enough to include this site on his, it would not hurt to learn a little conversational spanish to attempt to read it....not trying to be rude, just curious.....No vietnamese or Russian....only Spanish!...Thanks for letting me into your hearts!! Wildman


........next, customer did not have much mucho....

You seem to have misunderstood me. I was only cracking wise because you so butchered the little Spanish you used. Now that I think about it, maybe it was an intentional joke that you made. I don't know.

My two children from my 1st wife are 1/4 Hispanic. I have been to Mexico about a dozen times doing electric work for my Missionary friend. Y, sé que suficiente español para obtener por.

[GUNNING]

If the homeowner knows up front that I get to inspect and change the wiring if needed. Only if the other electrician is finished with either the homeowner or contractor; will I consider entering the job. Normally I can clean things up, but it might take a long L o n g time and maybe more materials to do, or redo; but when I leave it's as if I had done the job and there would be no questions about how it was done. If I need to explain the ins and outs of the electrical code to the homeowner I also explain to them that it's costing him $1.50 a minute to do so.

[iwire]

Gentlemen.

Was I unclear?

Drop the talk about nationalities or I will close this thread.