Large residential job pointers

[jjhoward]

I am working on an estimate for a very large new home, around 8000 sq feet. My experinece is limited to much smaller residential work (3000 sq feet probably the largest we have done). Any pointers or warnings for jobs this size would be appreciated. We are planning on a 320 amp underground service, one 200 amp MB panel at the meter pan, a 200 DSC to a 200 amp ML panel in another area of the residence and a 100 ML sub off one of the 200 panels in a 3rd location. Intial plans have about 120 recessed lights...switches, recepts not tallied yet. Current drawings have no exterior lighting. Any special considerations for a house this size??
Thank you for you replies.

Joe

[Jljohnson]

Yes. DO NOT use the same opening cost that you use for smaller track to semi-custom homes (if this is the way you bid). You will lose you #$%@. Figure AT LEAST two days worth of time for yourself or your leadman to do owner walkthroughs, etc. I bid all my homes with material costs/labor units just as I would any other commercial job. For the larger resi jobs, I have one bid sheet, for standard size homes, I use another. Around here, that size of home, speking very generally, would cost in the ballpark of 35-40K to wire, judging by the # of cans you list. Don't forget to offer your customer alot of upsells as well..comp network, special lighting controls, under tile heat mats in master bath, etc. Also, it's not a bad idea to put a contingency into your bid for extras. Spell out the amount to your customer and tell them up front that you will credit any $ not used by adds/changes back to them. Some customers would rather see this than a large bill for extras that they did not count on when they arranged the homes financing. Good luck

[bkludecke]

Larger homes cost alot more (per sq ft) in my experience. You'll probably have to contend with things like higher ceilings, interior decorators, clueless homeowners with more money than they know what to do with, alot of changes (constantly), and a host of other things. The really big ones are nearly impossible to bid accurately and they can take a year or more to build so you may loose your shirt at finish if you don't plan way ahead. Oh, and don't even think that the designer/architect knows what is needed.

[goldstar]

The last one I wired that was this size started out at around $23K for the initial bid and ended up around $36K after all the extras. I'm trying to think about where I lost time and money but take advice from other colleagues on this. You'll be putting in a lot more unexpected time than you think. Looking back I can remember numerous telephone calls to the POCO, coordinating powering up times, waiting for the scaffold to install recessed fixtures in the 22' trayed ceiling in the great room and wiring the boiler was a big one that I didn't figure properly. From a simple 8 zone HWBB boiler we ended up with 6 additional zones of radiant heat that required separate switching, zone valves, relay arrays and wiring for 120 volt circulator motors. Make sure you study this job carefully and know exactly what is going into the job. If the builder agrees on an extra with the HO chances are he won't inform you and you'll have to pick up on it yourself (they usually come out with something like "didn't you figure on wiring the boiler ?"). Also, find out how many AC zones there are. More than likely there will be at least 3 (up, down and master BR suite). If they finish off the basement figure on another one and find out the sizes (10 amps per ton is a good rule of thumb). Chandelier lift and chandelier installation is another extra you can never figure accurately. Make sure you find out how heavy the chandelier will be so you can size the lift properly. You can figure out the amount of time it takes to install the lift but then they install a medallion on the ceiling and you have to make another adjustment and then the chandelier comes in and it's an erector set that takes 3-4 hours to put together. You're better off giving a rough estimate but doing it on a T & M basis. This could turn out to be an all day job.

Just curious, how did you figure on a 320 amp service with two 200 amp main breakers ? Who's pulling in the uinderground service you or the POCO ? You should be pulling into a CT cabinet. If the run is more than 150' from xfmr to the house they will make you install a concrete vault to pull in the wire (that's about $2.2K)

The long and short of all this is that up front it seems like you are going to make a lot of $$$. But, keep a log of your time and in the end you'll find that you ended up close to breaking even (a few $100.00 either way). IMHO this is "keep busy" work. If you need something to take you through the winter as a back-up for your regular business go for it. If this is your main focus of business you won't be a millionaire anytime soon.

Hope this helps.

Phil
Gold Star Electric
New Jersey

[macmikeman]

If this is your main focus of business you won't be a millionaire anytime soon.

Well spoken. I've learned how to run away from those. No matter how high I go, and I can go pretty high when I'm in the mood, it still jobcosts out to not enough. Put in around $ .60 per square foot just for walking around repeating the same stuff over and over. It helps to get a digital voice recorder from Radio Shack and record every conversation between you and the owner or the general contractor. You can download the recordings as wav. files and make a cd for later reference.

[jwelectric]

The electrical should run around 7% the selling price of the house. This includes the fixtures.

[U. P. Chuck Electric]

Don't forget to offer your customer alot of upsells as well..comp network, special lighting controls, under tile heat mats in master bath, etc. Also, it's not a bad idea to put a contingency into your bid for extras. Spell out the amount to your customer and tell them up front that you will credit any $ not used by adds/changes back to them. Some customers would rather see this than a large bill for extras that they did not count on when they arranged the homes financing. Good luck

Not exactly what I would recommend. First these people have designers & such to upsell them. I would bid it as spec'd & shut up till you get the job. Then once you are "in" you can start droping the upsell Bombs & charge double for any extra. Everyone expects this & don't blow it for the rest of us!
You can be expensive, but the designers & builders should have asked about Upsells, and upgrades. We always get upgrades on the bathroom exhaust fans to the whisper quiet as it is never spec'd.
Remember these type people want everything top notch, first grade, & to them its just another dollar.

[jjhoward]

Thank you all for the responses.
I will do the take-off from the supplied drawings as a "starting point". But this starting point mandates a meeting/discussion with the HO. How many meetings, how much time chatting about this could be a real time burner.
The POCO here (N. New Jersey) is JCP&L. I will be checking with them regarding the CT requirement (distance from the pole in the street is 300').
Goldstar, can I PM you for further discussion?

I handle extras (after contract signing) with change orders that are due upon receipt. The GC on this job is the HO. Not sure how much construction exp he has.

Jw: 7% of the selling price seems extrordinarly high. My numbers are consistantly $5-$6/sq foot. Maybe 7% of the construction cost but not the selling price. I think the selling price for properties around here is close to $300/sq foot, so my $5-$6 sq/foot is closer to 2% of the selling value.

I will spend alot of time contemplating this job before I get back to the HO. I do NOT want to do any jobs where I break even (break even == losing!)
Break even...I would rather sleep late and then hang out at the beach, the end result is better than breaking even.

[hardworkingstiff]

The electrical should run around 7% the selling price of the house. This includes the fixtures.

Is that with or without the land?

[jjhoward]

How do you sell a house with the dirt under it??

[satcom]

Quote: "The GC on this job is the HO."

Put your seat belt on, your in for a real ride.

Everyone had some real good information, on what to watch out for, i would not try to use a square ft price, or a percent to figure a job like this, do your takeoff, and account for everything, then check the construction schedule, to estimate your delay times, these can be a killer, and even if your lucky and nail the scheduled delay, there will be other trades, that may mess up the schedule, i have a buddy that was working in the Mt Tabor area, he just finished a home close to 8,000sq, he bid it at 54K, and worried he was to high, job completion price was $80K plus, he is back working for someone, while he pays off his suppliers, take your time, and get some help with the estimate, if your not sure, at least your asking ahead of time, some go in like a bull and bid, they usually don't brag about, their losses.

[Bob Anchorite]

I found this particular set of posts, the most informative for me. I was sorry to see it end, or slow down. I would like to ask these more experienced types... what is your approach on making a good living through electricity...
What really works. What would you change if you could go back. What would be a reasonable net for a well run business?



Bob

[goldstar]

Goldstar, can I PM you for further discussion?

Absolutely. Glad to help. Haven't done any underground work in the JCP&L area, only overhead 200 amps or less so far. Most of the bigger work I do is in the PSE&G and RECO areas but many of PSE&G's rules are copied by neighboring POCO's

[Well Ground]

Getting back to the original thread a little bit, I'd have to say you have to turn up your attention to detail when you start bidding large homes.

My company has seen a huge turnaround in the wake of the housing boom to where the plethora of production homes has dwindled. The big thing in my market now: Gi-normous Honking Custom Homes.

In my experience many times those expensive options will be well reflected in the plans. However, also in my experience, just as often there are more hidden notes and hidden appliances than in the regular plans. Again, it's just turning up that attention to detail...look closely at the indirect costs you will encounter. Its a little tougher with 10,000+ square feet to worry about @.@;

Good luck.

Matt
Residential Estimator

[U. P. Chuck Electric]

Again, it's just turning up that attention to detail...

Very true! remember these are custom homes or custom spec'd & will have a buyer before the closing usually. also these affluent buyers are used to the best of everything especially service and your respect. so expect to do a lot of personal hand holding and butt munching with a smile.
these buyers stay at the best hotels when they travel & are used to not carrying their own luggage, or even turning down their own sheets at night. They expect to have it done & are willing to pay for it. Its expected!!
If you have never stayed in a 5 star hotel I highly recommend you doing it once, & you will understand the high level of service & attention to detail they will give you. You & your crews need to give this to the owners/ buyers of the McMansion's.
Remember the service calls to change light bulbs in the tall ceilings over the next few years will be good business too!

[tallgirl]

The GC on this job is the HO. Not sure how much construction exp he has.

Which way are you thinking is going to make a difference? If he has too little, he'll be pestering you all the time. If he has a lot, he'll be pestering you for different things. The worst possible scenario is that this is his second house he's built for himself. He'll remember everything he did wrong the first time and want to make absolutely sure he doesn't repeat the same mistakes.

Apropos the comment another poster made about a friend who wound up deep in the hole, my father (who was a GC) used to get pestered by owners all the time for junk and they'd nickle and dime him into giving them freebies. Drove my mother insane. Learn to say "No".

If you're doing T&M, make sure this guy knows that calling you costs money. If you're doing fixed price, tell him how many hours you're going to spend listening to him, then how much each extra hour costs.

Rich people come in two basic flavors. One kind wants to impress everyone with how much money they make by spending liberally. The other kind wants everyone else to earn their money the same as they did and will pinch every penny they can get their hands on. Figuring out which you've got on your hands is not a bad way to start. I had a computer business decades ago that went south because I didn't know about rich people of the second kind ...

[jjhoward]

More info about this job and the GC:
The HO/GC is a blue collar guy. He and his brother own 2 body shops. They recently built a showroom in one of their shops and are building custom choppers there.

I really have no idea of his construction knowledge. However, the times I met him at the site he was once cutting holes in the steel beams with a welding torch for the mounting bolts another time he was operating the bucket loader.

Regardless of the HO/GC skills or intent, this job requires tenacious project management or it will be a burden not a profit maker. Maybe my naiveté is talking here, but I see this monster home and assume it is a monster job that can make me some good money.

The experiences shared here are all very valuable “lessons learned” Thank you all.

This weekend I will be review the drawings with a very sharp pencil. My approach is to complete the take off on the existing drawings and get a baseline $ amount. Most importantly I need to determine a project management fee or better yet a PM rate. Do any of you think a formal PM role is required here? Any suggestions on how to convince the customer that there is real PM type work required on this job and it has a $ value in addition to the execution of the wiring work?

[acrwc10]

Do any of you think a formal PM role is required here? Any suggestions on how to convince the customer that there is real PM type work required on this job and it has a $ value in addition to the execution of the wiring work?[/QUOTE]

I am certain you will have no trouble convicing them they need a PM after the job is completed. I have heard many a home owner say " I'll never do that again" after GC.ing there own home project.
Don't forget any "high end" dimmers , or remote switchs ARE going to have some learning curve and failure rate to them that you will end up having to eat.I installed about 12k $ of switchs and recepticles ,not including labor,in a remodle addition that have proven to be more problematic then profitable. It is not a bad Idea to build this into your mark up ,if you have to supply anything that is more dollars per unit then you charge per hour.

[jjhoward]

Right, hindsight is always great. I will let you know how it goes with the HO. There is no way I will sign up for this job if the HO does not acknowledge the "value" (ie $s to me) for the numerous meetings/consults/design effort that this job will take.

Joe

[bencelest]

" My numbers are consistantly $5-$6/sq foot. Maybe 7% of the construction cost but not the selling price.QUOTE]
Joe:
I am not experienced regarding bidding electrical by square footage.
Can you explained more ?
Is your price for labor and materials ? Or labor only?

[SeanKelly]

Find out if their is going to be any type of lighting control system. We run into homeowners who constantly change their minds half way through walkthrough when they understand the amount of switches and locations involved to have the lighting they desire. The house I'm wiring right now is 7800 sf and I believe their system cost around $75,000. It can be a big moneymaker if you can sell them on it. Stations, modules etc etc.

[allenwayne]

The only thing in that remains constant in RE: to customs is changes.Bid the job as per plan,get the contract and do a walk through.Explain that what you discuss will be wired as such and any changes after wired will be expensive.Write up all changes and charge applicably.From experience once you have it wired the HO will make changes,it`s just what happens.That`s where the real profit comes in to play.

You can`t per sq. ft a custom home you will take a huge bath on it if you try.Bid the devices, cans,service etc.I like to box the home before doing a walk through.That way the Ho can see a box and you can tell them what it will do/control.That`s when I lay the low down, now it has no wires in it once it`s wired the price of poker goes up.I`ve seen big customs go triple of what the original bid was after extras.

Oh the extras usually continue in trim stage too,Once the drywall is complete they usually come up with things they never considered.Like, what my theaters projector needs a receptacle ???Or you`ve wired the kitchen as per plan and now there are warming drawers,insta hots etc.I just giggle and add it up.

[macmikeman]

quote from Allenwayne "I just giggle and add it up."

Allen, I just love to hear that giggle you are doing, no I LIVE to hear that giggle. Keep up the good work.