Charging and paying for piece work

[tallgirl]

The group I've been involved with in New Orleans is undergoing some changes, and while I still intend to be involved with them as a volunteer, the changes that are underway may lead to fewer "volunteer" opportunities rather than more for me.

I've spoken to two different EC's in town about working for them for pay to fill in any time when I'm not working for the group. The idea I have in mind at present is doing finish trim piece work since it is plentiful and seems (to me) to lend itself more to piece work than any other kind of electrical work.

For those of y'all who either do piece work, or have had workers who do piece work for you, how does it work out? How are rates set? What's the unit of work? Inquiring minds and all that.

[bkludecke]

I had an OLD electrician worked for me once doing finish for a fixed price. He was not as fast as in his younger years when he claimed he needed to do >300 devices/day to make a living. That was using a Yankee driver & pair of strippers. That's good production in my book.

[infinity]

> 300 devices a day? He must have been leaving the wires off the devices.

[bradleyelectric]

>300 devices/day That's good production in my book.

Yeah, that aint bad. Comes to a device every about minute and a half. Not including getting out of the truck, morning break and knocking off about 10-15 minutes early and longer than 30 minutes for lunch.

[Rockyd]

Hanging my tools up and leaving the trade. If an OLD electrician can consistantly knock out 300 devices a day, I'll not be able to compete.

[celtic]

I had an OLD electrician worked for me once doing finish for a fixed price. He was not as fast as in his younger years when he claimed he needed to do >300 devices/day to make a living. That was using a Yankee driver & pair of strippers. That's good production in my book.
As long as he only "claimed" to do >300/day.
The reality is - he wasn't "making a living" then.
If he was, why is he still working when he is OLD?
;)

[mdshunk]

The trouble with this piece work stuff is that you're often only 1099'd, so that means you're a subcontractor. You'd need to pay your own social security, have insurance, yadda, yadda. Piecework also gets the contractor from paying overtime to go-getter guys who might choose to work long hours and long weeks. When you do the math, piecework doesn't always work in the workman's favor. Just a head's up. If your main intent is just to get more exposure to electrical work, then go for it. Just make sure that you clear up how troubleshooting things that don't work when you power up to check everything is handled. You can blow hours and hours fixing someone else's mistake, not related to your trim out.

[e57]

Piece work lends itself to bad Not my problem" style practices IMO. Never did piece work, never will - by the hour is the only road for me. And considering you're trimming someone elses work who may have been paid the same way .

[George Stolz]

Here are some previous threads on the topic:
Question about piece work (http://www.mikeholt.com/code_forum/showthread.php?t=81413) - 62 replies
Piece work vs. hourly wage (http://www.mikeholt.com/code_forum/showthread.php?t=55171) - 6 replies
Piece work ????? (http://www.mikeholt.com/code_forum/showthread.php?t=55108) - 7 replies

I still couldn't find the one I was looking for. :D

IMO, piecework stinks, I would avoid it like the plague, and I usually made money at it. I like it simple; I'll work hard and do my best to earn you a profit as long as the check is the right amount. Having to keep records on my own to know if I'm getting an incorrect check is not my cup of tea.

I didn't have to deal with 1099's or any of that stuff, even. Still hated it. :)

[tallgirl]

Marc,

Thanks for the tips and warnings :)

Oh, and I'd be very impressed by anyone who can trim out 300 devices in a day. Maybe if they were stabbing everything, sure, why not.

A large part of this is getting more exposure and experience. I have one EC that I'm on very good terms with, and I'd like to add a few more to the list. Making a few $$$'s to help pay for gasoline and tires wouldn't hurt, either. Just need to be careful about the tax situation -- part time jobs have a way of costing more than they are worth ...

[George Stolz]

Ah, found the thread I was looking for (http://www.mikeholt.com/code_forum/showthread.php?t=54881).

____________________________
-Anonymous

[tallgirl]

IMO, piecework stinks, I would avoid it like the plague, and I usually made money at it. I like it simple; I'll work hard and do my best to earn you a profit as long as the check is the right amount. Having to keep records on my own to know if I'm getting an incorrect check is not my cup of tea.

I didn't have to deal with 1099's or any of that stuff, even. Still hated it. :)

Well ... if I was trying to earn a living at this, I'd hate it as well. Heck, I've been a salaried employee for the past 10 or 15 years and I've since learned that "salaried" is code language for "all the free overtime you can stand!" I've not been paid $0.01 for overtime in almost 12 years.

You're still plenty young -- there's worse things in life than 1099s. Try keeping track of 401 (k)'s, IRAs, 529 plans, and all sorts of other tax complexities that old age brings.

[tallgirl]

Ah, found the thread I was looking for (http://www.mikeholt.com/code_forum/showthread.php?t=54881).

____________________________
-Anonymous

Thanks for that pointer, George. I'll be sure to include some of the concepts that were discussed in that thread whenever I discuss this with the EC peeps.

And to answer a question you asked in #23 of that thread, there are limitations on who can be considered "salaried" and who is "hourly" and how that entire mess works. The long and short is that you can't just put a burger flipper or Romex monkey on salary, then work them so many hours that their effective rate of pay is less than minimum wage.

[e57]

~ then work them so many hours that their effective rate of pay is less than minimum wage.

Reminds me of my days in the military.... At one point I made $.75 an hour...

[hardworkingstiff]

I guess I'm the odd man out.... again. I had pretty good luck with piece work. No one, and I mean NO ONE could keep up with me back in my prime. I could make pretty darn good money like that.

(300 devices a day, no problem back then)

[Kessler4130]

Hanging my tools up and leaving the trade. If an OLD electrician can consistantly knock out 300 devices a day, I'll not be able to compete.


I don't try to compete on any level, I enjoy what I do and if that isn't enough then I will hang it up :).

[allenwayne]

Julie read my post in the other piece work thread.

[bradleyelectric]

I guess I'm the odd man out.... again. I had pretty good luck with piece work. No one, and I mean NO ONE could keep up with me back in my prime. I could make pretty darn good money like that.

(300 devices a day, no problem back then)

8hr day* 60minutes in an hour= 480 minutes in an 8 hour day
in that 8 hours you need to get the material in the job, morning break, get from 1 device location to the next, clean up lunch, clean up wire pieces, clean up empty device boxes, put plate on, clean up plastic plate wrappers, get the extra plate screw out of your pouch because this 1 didn't have a screw, get trash and excess material out of job. 480/300= 1.6 minutes per device. In my best days I don't remember doing them in less than 5 minutes average with an offset screwdriver.

[emahler]

8hr day* 60minutes in an hour= 480 minutes in an 8 hour day
in that 8 hours you need to get the material in the job, morning break, get from 1 device location to the next, clean up lunch, clean up wire pieces, clean up empty device boxes, put plate on, clean up plastic plate wrappers, get the extra plate screw out of your pouch because this 1 didn't have a screw, get trash and excess material out of job. 480/300= 1.6 minutes per device. In my best days I don't remember doing them in less than 5 minutes average with an offset screwdriver.

goes with the 1 hr ceiling fan install from start to finish...

[Rockyd]

Jesse,

I want to see an animal that fast, and that old! There's just way to many bumps on the road to think anybody can turn out that kind of production rate. Takes that long to do the "spread" of goods per room, for install, let alone strip and stick, and put a cover over it.

Maybe, just maybe it could be done with

Jet powered roller skates

Fast draw holsters with screw gun on each side

Self filling wire nut pouches on front apron

Team moving ahead to make sure all
devices and support hardware is available
on location

Don't drink anymore than you can sweat out -
ain't got time for pi$$ing around!

[tallgirl]

goes with the 1 hr ceiling fan install from start to finish...

It'd been a while since I installed one without a down rod. Took me almost 2 HOURS the first time I did one recently. I'd like to find the variable rung height ladder. One rung is too low, two rungs is too high.

Let's just say when "Can you install a door chime?" came around I was delighted to say "Yes". Someone else can install those stupid ceiling fans in 8' ceilings.

[mdshunk]

Let's just say when "Can you install a door chime?" came around I was delighted to say "Yes". Someone else can install those stupid ceiling fans in 8' ceilings.I schedule 35 minutes for ceiling fan assembly and hanging. You've seen one, you've seen them all. I just wish some of the fan manufacturers would make the rubber isolators for the mounting plate differently so that they wouldn't poke right up through the drywall when you tighten the mounting plate to the box (Hunter). That's unnecessarily aggrivating. (Hunter) Fan's are also worthless when you're trying to mount a fan on a dropped ceiling fan box.

[George Stolz]

I schedule 35 minutes for ceiling fan assembly and hanging.
Wow. That's a steep hill, IMO.

[mdshunk]

Wow. That's a steep hill, IMO.I dunno, George. I install almost 200 ceiling fans myself each cooling season, and it's working out to just about normal, not counting changing the box to a fan rated assembly. I keep very good metrics. Seriously, when's the last time a paddle fan kicked your back side? If one of my guys spent 2 hours assembling and hanging a paddle fan, we'd need to have a talk. I'm certain that if it was some sort of competition, I could assemble and hang one of the major brands on an existing fan rated box in 15 minutes. If a fella has to cut open the plastic baggie the instructions come in, he's already in big trouble.

[hardworkingstiff]

I know I know, Lou thinks he used to be SUPERMAN! :)

Seriously though, just 6 years ago (I'm 54 now) I wired a Murphy gas station at a WalMart. The GC super asked me where my help was when I showed up by myself to get started (all rigid conduit to dispensers and pumps, PVC for the service lateral and phone, EMT on the canopy for the canopy lights and strip lights around the canopy). I told him I would get some help when I got behind. The only time I needed help was when I pulled wire. Other than that, I did it all alone, and kept up. I was never the sub holding up progress.

About 8 months later another one came up. The same super was doing this one and demanded from the project manager that they use me for the electrical work. I was too busy and could not get to it. I visited the job one Friday afternoon to see how it was going and visit the super (we became friends). He said "Lou, you get more work done in a day by yourself than the three guys they have out here doing the electrical work".

Doubt me if you like, but yea, I was SUPERFAST, then I became FAST, now I'm just OK. The key is to be organized and prepared (with materials, a plan for work sequence, and attitude). You get out of the truck knowing what needs to be done from the start of the day to the finish. You don't much have to worry about tomorrow, because you already have it planned from last week.

Yea, I used to be pretty amazing. (And, as everyone can see now, I LOVE ME):grin: :grin: :grin: