Pics of panel rough-in

[bjp_ne_elec]

Would love to see some of your panel rough-ins, if anyone is willing to post them, or PM them if you don't want to post. I just got back in to the trade (getting business going for my son) and I'm pretty nervous about my first new home rough-in - as the GC I'm working with has indicated he's interested in me doing more work for him. He was pretty specific - in that he's happy with the pricing I've given him, but the look and quality of the install is what he's still going to factor in. So, as you can see, the pressure is on.

This particular job will have the panel fully exposed in the basement, so it would be great if I saw some of that great work that the members are installing. Curious how is all rolls in to the panel, how in particular you route and secure the Romex as it transitions in to the panel.

Thanks in advance,

Brett

[George Stolz]

I'll show you mine (http://www.mikeholt.com/codeforum/ultimatebb.php?ubb=get_topic;f=11;t=009265#000000) if you show me yours. :D

(If you go to the link, you will find mine, Iwire's commercial panels - I thought it had a link to a thread on ECN of the most elaborate exposed work NM you will never see, but it doesn't. I'm still looking for it.)

He was pretty specific - in that he's happy with the pricing I've given him, but the look and quality of the install is what he's still going to factor in. So, as you can see, the pressure is on.
What pressure? :)

If you know this going in, tack a couple extra hours labor on to allow you to slow down for it. My pictures were of a recessed installation in the garage of a tract-home, where speed is what matters most. In an exposed custom home, more time should be factored in for more careful work.

I must confess, I installed a panel in a custom home in the hills once I ended up ashamed of. I screwed up by not drilling for the panel prior to pulling the home runs (per my routine). I drilled after all the home runs were in the area, and then tried to pull several in at once through each hole.

What ended up happening was I wound up with a nasty-looking rat's nest at the ceiling, where the NM turned and went down the wall. It was all exposed work, and in the frenzy to just get it done I ended up with a very ugly installation. To top it all off, it wasn't my house to begin with, so my normal routine for big houses of numbering the homeruns and creating a panel schedule as we went was overruled.

As a result, some of the runs had numbers, and some had descriptions written on them. As a result, the numbered sheet ended up less valuable, and got lost. And, the panel inside looked like garbage, because I have a hard time working with 4" - 8" long chunks of sheathing labels on the conductors. Even some of those got lost.

I learned my lesson, and try not to deviate from my routines. I'm feeble-minded enough that if I don't have a routine for something, and follow it, things go downhill in a hurry.

The homeowner never complained, but every few months I think about that panel and hang my head. :mad:

[bjp_ne_elec]

George - thanks for the link.

I'm curious - in the one with the NM - yellow (12/2 - 12/3) on right and white (14/2 - 14/3)) on left - I'm curious if there are multiple Romex running in to the same connector.

Also - is that tie wraps securing the NM? I would have never thought of using tie wraps - but is it a "listed method"?

Speaking of multiple things in a hole (I hope this doesn't draw some non-electrical comments) - is it legitmate to put two Romex in the same drilled hole without derating. I remember seeing a related post, and I can't seem to find the correct section in the NEC that would straighten me out on this one.

I'll definitely give this one more time - not that I'd ever rush - but first impression means a lot in this business.

Thanks,

Brett

[Dennis Alwon]

I wonder who wired this panel

http://www.kiddeft.com/utcfs/ws-385/Assets/199%20Electrical%20Panel.jpg$ASSET

[LarryFine]

Here's a couple of one of mine, before and after breakers:

http://fineelectricco.com/KwPanels1.jpg http://fineelectricco.com/KwPanels2.jpg

There are two stacked NM's in each KO except for #10's and larger.

[bjp_ne_elec]

Larry - nice. Any way of getting the JPEG's - as it's hard to get details, as they're a little dark. What connectors are listed for dual entry? I'm also interested in how you secured the NM just above the panel/

Presonally I like those plastic ones that you push the little tab (it's hanging a a little plastic tag) - but I'm not sure if these are listed for two NM's.

Larry which manufacturer/part number did you use?

Thanks

Brett

[Dennis Alwon]

Larry - nice. Any way of getting the JPEG's
Brett

Brett try right clicking on the image and then copy it. Paste it or save it where you want

[bjp_ne_elec]

Dennis - that worked - but once I go zoom in, they're grainy. Have to rely on Larry's response.

Larry - one more question - and I noticed it when I zoomed in. What are thos two sets of Black/Whites that head in to the center area of the panel up near the top - between the two main lugs?

Thanks

[aline]

These are before and after pictures from a panel replacement.

Before
http://i95.photobucket.com/albums/l129/brucepri/PanelBefore2.jpg

After
http://i95.photobucket.com/albums/l129/brucepri/PanelAfter1.jpg

Before
http://i95.photobucket.com/albums/l129/brucepri/PanelBefore1.jpg

After
http://i95.photobucket.com/albums/l129/brucepri/PanelAfter4.jpg

After
http://i95.photobucket.com/albums/l129/brucepri/PanelAfter2.jpg

[Dennis Alwon]

I think the original will be grainy when you zoom in also,

[aline]

I don't know who's work this is but it's the neatest romex job I've ever seen.
Anyone want to lay claim to this work?

http://i95.photobucket.com/albums/l129/brucepri/NeatRomexJob1.jpg

http://i95.photobucket.com/albums/l129/brucepri/NeatRomexJob2.jpg

http://i95.photobucket.com/albums/l129/brucepri/NeatRomexJob3.jpg

http://i95.photobucket.com/albums/l129/brucepri/NeatRomexJob4.jpg

[George Stolz]

Aline, that was the amazing job I tried to find earlier. Harold Endean saw the work, and passed it on for review over at the ECN forum. It is probably the most obscenely beautiful work I've seen.

The ECN forum was down, or I would have had a link together already. :)

Edit: here's the link (http://www.electrical-contractor.net/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Board=5&Number=122256&Searchpage=1&Main=13098&Words=harold+endean+iwire&topic=0&Search=true#Post122256), looks as though they've had a facelift as well. :cool:

[iwire]

Yes, Harold (a NJ Inspector) sent me those pictures of a home he inspected. I had thought of those as well.

[tallgirl]

The right side of this pic is my first attempt at finishing a panel. The left side was done by a journeypeep I work with regularly.

http://i114.photobucket.com/albums/n264/julie78787/JuliePanel.jpg

[brian john]

Dennis when you took that picture of my work YOU PROMISED not to show it around..

As for that Romex pic OH MY GOODNESS. That is a work of art.

[tallgirl]

I think the original will be grainy when you zoom in also,

JPEGs are displayed pixel-for-pixel, so when you zoom in all you do is show the same pixel more than once.

What's need is the original, raw image. The panel pic I posted above was originally about 2000 pixels wide by 3000 high (7.2Mpx total). What was posted was 450 pixels wide by 600 high.

[Dominator]

I don't know who's work this is but it's the neatest romex job I've ever seen.
Anyone want to lay claim to this work?





damn...lovely. I don't do romex but seeing this makes me want to

[LarryFine]

Larry - nice. Any way of getting the JPEG's - as it's hard to get details, as they're a little dark. What connectors are listed for dual entry? I'm also interested in how you secured the NM just above the panel

Larry which manufacturer/part number did you use?

Larry - one more question - and I noticed it when I zoomed in. What are thos two sets of Black/Whites that head in to the center area of the panel up near the top - between the two main lugs?

They're the regular Halex plastic pop-ins, from the orange store. The black/white wires are the incoming (from main disco) and outgoing (to sub-panels) neutrals.

I'm too tired to create thumbs to click, so I'll just link to the raw pix on my server, since they're too big to post. Let me know how they are.

http://fineelectricco.com/panelsbig.jpg
http://fineelectricco.com/panelA.jpg
http://fineelectricco.com/panelB.jpg
http://fineelectricco.com/panelBclose.jpg
http://fineelectricco.com/panellugs.jpg
http://fineelectricco.com/panelstaples1.jpg
http://fineelectricco.com/panelstaples2.jpg

Here are a couple of others from the same job. (I didn't do the subs, one of my guys did. The 3 boxes are for remote lighting, and the last is how I ran the coax and CAT-5 home-runs.)

http://fineelectricco.com/subs.jpg
http://fineelectricco.com/boxes3far.jpg
http://fineelectricco.com/boxes3near.jpg
http://fineelectricco.com/boxes3rear.jpg
http://fineelectricco.com/boxes2rear.jpg
http://fineelectricco.com/boxes2clip.jpg
http://fineelectricco.com/LVclose.jpg

[blue spark]

On that Romex "Art" which by the way is amazing, what type of staples are those? I can't tell from the pictures. They don't look like standard straps.

[benmin]

On that Romex "Art" which by the way is amazing, what type of staples are those? I can't tell from the pictures. They don't look like standard straps.

They look like the standard uninsulated type. Looks better without the colored plastic insulator

[benmin]

Since I program the HWI panels shown above, I've had the privilege of seeing many other electricians versions of that mech room. I must say that it's absolutely the most visually appealing romex job I've ever seen

[zbang]

I don't know who's work this is but it's the neatest romex job I've ever seen.

Damn, that's anal retentive with an extra hyphen* :D. Did some telecom power guys do some moonlighting?

* yes, sometimes anal-retentive does have a hyphen, and sometimes not :D.

[big vic]

The right side of this pic is my first attempt at finishing a panel. The left side was done by a journeypeep I work with regularly.

http://i114.photobucket.com/albums/n264/julie78787/JuliePanel.jpg

Are those 2" cable connectors with 12 romexs in them or rigd nipples. Either way it wouldn't fly around here

[tallgirl]

Are those 2" cable connectors with 12 romexs in them or rigd nipples. Either way it wouldn't fly around here

Not sure what they are as I didn't start the panel and I tend to be busy when he's working on them. I believe they are 2" nipples, but could be mistaken.

What's the code issue? It's never set off my "Not to Code" alarm.

[Dennis Alwon]

Its legal if you meet the requirements of art.312.5(C) exception

[tallgirl]

Its legal if you meet the requirements of art.312.5(C) exception

I'm pretty sure it does -- there's a 2x4 above the panel, nailed between framing members and the cables are stapled to that 2x4 in numerical order, with odd circuits on the left (1, 3, 5, ...) and evens on the right (2, 4, 6 ...) and the feeder down the middle, stapled as well. Beyond that, I don't remember much of anything. As I wrote earlier, panels and services are a mystery to me.

I'll try to remember that section the next time and compare what's done with that exception.

[George Stolz]

I'd be surprised if it complied with that section, no offense.

Technically, by the section, there should be bushings on the RNC MAs, I don't see any either. :)

[tallgirl]

I'd be surprised if it complied with that section, no offense.

Technically, by the section, there should be bushings on the RNC MAs, I don't see any either. :)

Well, most of it isn't my work, so I'm not going to take it personally :)

I'm more familiar with panel makeups such as Larry's in this (http://forums.mikeholt.com/showpost.php?p=667713&postcount=5) post. No one has posted a photo of the other sort I've seen, which is a nipple out the back, such as in this (http://i114.photobucket.com/albums/n264/julie78787/BreakerBox.jpg) famous photo :)

[tallgirl]

Oh, and another thing --

I've read comments by a number of y'all on the subject of AFCIs getting hot. Is the way those AFCIs are arranged a bad idea? Would a better layout have been two on each side, rather than all four on the same side?

[iwire]

Its legal if you meet the requirements of art.312.5(C) exception

That is not surface mounted, it is a violation of the NEC but also a common practice in some areas.

[bjp_ne_elec]

What about derating? As the conductors are grouped - so if it is a nipple, it's length is important.

[Dennis Alwon]

What about derating? As the conductors are grouped - so if it is a nipple, it's length is important.

Derating does not make it illegal but if it is less than 2' then you don't have to derate.

[bjp_ne_elec]

Dennis - thanks - I was just trying to indicate that derating may factor in.

[George Stolz]

So if the pipe is between 18" and 24" inches, it's golden. ;)

[Dennis Alwon]

That is not surface mounted, it is a violation of the NEC

I should have caught that but I didn't. Thanks Bob---- so why do you think it is okay for surface mount but not for recessed. Sounds absurd to me. Someday somebody may recess a surface panel and you know that no one will move all those wires.

Anyway, I think it is a bad installation. There is no reason not to use connectors.

but also a common practice in some areas.
We use to do it like that years ago here but that practice seems to have gone by the wayside.

[memyselfandI]

I wonder who wired this panel

http://www.kiddeft.com/utcfs/ws-385/Assets/199%20Electrical%20Panel.jpg$ASSET
It wasn't me!!

[4x4]

ok yall i wanna see more panel pics.

[romexsnatcher]

george, im sorry man, but that panel looks horrible...

[stickboy1375]

http://i171.photobucket.com/albums/u292/stickboy1375/Picture040.jpg

I'm not finished yet, but it's a start... :) This is at my house... and yes I know the carflex is missing a strap...:)

[celtic]

You need some rigid pipe there ...you seem to have used everything else but :D

Looks nice to me.

[LarryFine]

Stick, neat work, but just out of curiousity, and in no particular order . . .

What are the connectors on the two 12-3's atop the taller panel, and the two 14-2's on the shorter one?

What's with the multiple nippling? Why not a single 2"? Just poor planing?

What about the feed-thru to the 3R enclosure on the far right?

[busman]

Also, the Romex on the right does not appear to be secured within 12" of the box?

Mark

[Dennis Alwon]

[This is at my house... and yes I know the carflex is missing a strap...:)

You know if you put a picture of your work up in this forum everyone is going to scrutinize it to death. SO......


My only question-- why a main breaker panel instead of a main lug panel? Seems like it is a sub panel since you have a 4 wire feed. Let me guess

The service is in the detached garage or you it was cheaper to buy the MB then the ML

[stickboy1375]

You know if you put a picture of your work up in this forum everyone is going to scrutinize it to death. SO......


My only question-- why a main breaker panel instead of a main lug panel? Seems like it is a sub panel since you have a 4 wire feed. Let me guess

The service is in the detached garage or you it was cheaper to buy the MB then the ML


Good eyes, I was wondering if anyone would pick that up... I just perfer the main breaker since its my house, right now that panel is fed from the garage (attached) by a 100 amp breaker, but in the future I will remove the panel in the garage and install a meter with breaker, this is all to make way for future plans....

[stickboy1375]

Stick, neat work, but just out of curiousity, and in no particular order . . .

What are the connectors on the two 12-3's atop the taller panel, and the two 14-2's on the shorter one?

What's with the multiple nippling? Why not a single 2"? Just poor planing?

What about the feed-thru to the 3R enclosure on the far right?

The connectors are twin connectors made by Arlington? They are rated for what I did, I did the multiple nipples because I didnt have a long enough 2" nipple for the covers to work, and I also have alot more thhn to pull... the 3R enclosure is a transfer switch for the smaller panel, its actually cheaper for me to go that route... I dont know why a 3R cabinet would be cheaper...

[stickboy1375]

Also, the Romex on the right does not appear to be secured within 12" of the box?

Mark

I'm not done yet..., Rome wasn't built in a day, niether is any project at my house...:grin:

[iwire]

Nice work Stick. :) 8-)

I was wondering a couple of things

1) Why does the carflex on the left bypass so much panel?

2) Was there a sale on Carlflex 90s?


I avoid 90s like the plague if I can.


But again Nice work 8-)

[iwire]

I'm not done yet..., Rome wasn't built in a day, neither is any project at my house...:grin:

LOL

I am on year 5 of my service change....:grin:

[stickboy1375]

http://i171.photobucket.com/albums/u292/stickboy1375/Picture042.jpg

Heres a better view, that peice of carflex feeds the receptacles on the media box, but I dont like the way it came out either and am going to change it in the future....:roll:

[DHkorn]

I've worked exclusively with conduit, almost 35 yrs now. I never knew romex could look so nice.

I'm sorry to see how petty some of the comments are thou. Remember, critics are a dime a dozen. Those jobs are art work. Good job.

[4x4]

Here is one of ours. From a few years ago.

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v651/gypsycraven/Dscn0770.jpg

I will take some of the next ones we do since I have a digital camera now.

[jack horner]

I wonder who wired this panel

http://www.kiddeft.com/utcfs/ws-385/Assets/199%20Electrical%20Panel.jpg$ASSET

I'm sure it was Beavis and Butthead!

[pismo]

A lot of yellow extention cords???

[jack horner]

I don't know who's work this is but it's the neatest romex job I've ever seen.
Anyone want to lay claim to this work?

http://i95.photobucket.com/albums/l129/brucepri/NeatRomexJob1.jpg

http://i95.photobucket.com/albums/l129/brucepri/NeatRomexJob2.jpg

http://i95.photobucket.com/albums/l129/brucepri/NeatRomexJob3.jpg

http://i95.photobucket.com/albums/l129/brucepri/NeatRomexJob4.jpg

My God! Doesn't anyone know how to install Conduit outside of PVC. Some EMT would have looked much better. I give props to the installer..... That is the nicest N-M cable I have ever seen.

[peter d]

Some EMT would have looked much better.

Perhaps. But if you're going to use NM, this is the best you'll ever see!



And what is really gained by using EMT?

(Runs for cover......) :D

[peter d]

In the "Awesome Romex Job" pictures, what exactly are we looking at? Lighting control panels? I'm guessing those are all the homeruns to the lighting outlets, and the others are simply the feeds from the panel board to the lighting cabinet.

[iwire]

And what is really gained by using EMT?

(Runs for cover......) :D

You can duck behind me. ;)

I was wondering the same thing.

You would quickly run into derating issues, solutions would be a lot of smaller conduits or a few large conduits with some large copper for typical branch circuits.

IMO it would cost a significant amount more for EMT so the choice should be up to the person paying the bill.

[iwire]

I should say though that with better equipment layout a lot of the jumpers from breaker panels to control panels could have been eliminated.

The control panels should be (IMO) close nippled to the associated breaker panel.

[bstoin]

I am sure the electricin(s) spent a LOT od time doing the romex art work. Makes for a nice conversation, but if they were my employees I'd probably get rid of them for taking days to complete a job that should only take a few hours with conduit.

[bstoin]

MAN! the more I look at those pictures the sillier it gets:grin:

[e57]

I've seen the pics of that NM job around for a while. While it looks neat, in comparison to most, I couldn't do it like that here. (Local/regional type thing I guess) Most areas around here would consider MN below 8' "Subject to Physical Damage". And it's not 'written' in to any code - but it has been a type of cultural interpetation passed from one inspector to the next for eons, and spreads from city to city and near-by towns... So in situations like that with a bunch of circuits to surface mounted panels and Home Works type stuff (Like pictured) - we hit a gutter at >8' and nipple down in to the panels. And makes for a clean look. As well as being able to get rid of the grounds at the gutter by mounting a bar or so in there.

[peter d]

I am sure the electricin(s) spent a LOT od time doing the romex art work. Makes for a nice conversation, but if they were my employees I'd probably get rid of them for taking days to complete a job that should only take a few hours with conduit.

If I remember correctly, these pictures are from a high-end custom home where money was (presumably) no object. I highly doubt the EC would spend days on this install unless they were very well paid to do it.

And I also highly doubt you could do a comparable install (same number of homeruns) in a "few hours" with EMT.

[peter d]

Most areas around here would consider MN below 8' "Subject to Physical Damage".

That sounds like paranoia to me.

[donselectric]

why didnt you just use a 2 in nipple

[360Youth]

OK, here goes. I'll run the risk and post photos. One is a house panel I am curently working on. I still have to run island stove circuit through the spare and I noticed the other day I forgot to put the smokes on AFCI. This is a smaller more manageable house and panel, so it is much easier to keep neat. The other photo is a 100 amp 3-phase ATS we just installed for a WWTP.

364

362

363

[mdshunk]

Looks nice, 360. What's with the big loop-dee-doo's of wire in the bottom of the transfer switch?

I see the transfer switch is mounted on a wooden ped. Is this an agricultural installation?

[celtic]

I see the transfer switch is mounted on a wooden ped. Is this an agricultural installation?

The other photo is a 100 amp 3-phase ATS we just installed for a WWTP.


I think that means a "log flume". :D

[mdshunk]

I think that means a "log flume". :D:grin:

You guys.... I didn't get it, until I looked up WWTP in acronymfinder.com. I was thinking "White Water...something". Waste Water Treatment Plant. Okay... log flume. Ick.8-) The big loops are still a violation, in any event.

[celtic]

LOL

I know that because I've been there ...you get used to the smell right AFTER coffee:mad:

[LarryFine]

I think that means a "log flume". :DOkay... log flume. Ick.8-) Oh, ga-ross!

[360Youth]

I think that means a "log flume". :D

I like that one. My favorite though is when one of the plants ruptured a tank which flowwed into a neighboring trailer park and some of the area opperators nicknamed it the "Poo-nami.":grin:

As far as the loops, what is the violation (reference, not doubting you). The loops are to maintain additional conductor in case there is a future problem and I (or whomever) wouldn't have to make a splice. My basis is the degree of the bend, but I guess it could be a 360 degree issue. Let me know for future work. There is not the same loop in the other wires because replacement of those conductors are simple vs a 60+ conduit run from the generator.

[360Youth]

LOL

I know that because I've been there ...you get used to the smell right AFTER coffee:mad:

Ever been in one. Smell plus heat. UUGH! One of my most vivid memories is repairing a pump setup in the bottom of a 15 tank in the middle of the summer and when I stepped off the ladder into what I thought was ankle deep "water" it was actually about 3" above the rim of my boot. Got paid a nice bonus, but....

[George Stolz]

The big loops are still a violation, in any event.
Code reference?

[celtic]

Ever been in one. \

Close enough for me on the O² deck ...and that was ripe even with them OFF.


"Poo-nami" LMAO... my wife just stumbled in ...."What's so funny?" ...she's laughing now too :D

[Smart $]

Ever been in one. Smell plus heat. UUGH! One of my most vivid memories is repairing a pump setup in the bottom of a 15 tank in the middle of the summer and when I stepped off the ladder into what I thought was ankle deep "water" it was actually about 3" above the rim of my boot. Got paid a nice bonus, but....
Yeh, I've been there, but—quite thankfully—did not get a bootfull :grin:

Below is a solids processing machine's control panel, in which I did all the field terminations.

http://i145.photobucket.com/albums/r204/Smart_S/wwtp-mcp.jpg

[mdshunk]

Code reference?110.12.

If you care to use NECA 1 (NEIS) as your guideline for 110.12 workmanship issues (as referenced in the FPN), NECA 1, Section 9, Article N prohibits this practice.

[e57]

Smart$ Nice.... Bet that costs a hunk of change$$$$

IMPO wish din rail were more commonly used.... Much of the control work I see is much less astetic or organized.

[George Stolz]

110.12.

If you care to use NECA 1 (NEIS) as your guideline for 110.12 workmanship issues (as referenced in the FPN), NECA 1, Section 9, Article N prohibits this practice.
How are we to make proper use of expansion couplings then? :)

[mdshunk]

How are we to make proper use of expansion couplings then? :)Expansion couplings are to allow the expansion and contraction of the raceway. The conductors do not expand and contract (or, at least do so very little in comparison with the raceway). The enclosures, which are connected by the raceway, are still the same net dimension apart from each other. The length from the terminals in one enclosure to the terminals in the other enclosure does not change. If we're talking about earth settlement here, that's a violation all of its own.

[360Youth]

110.12.

If you care to use NECA 1 (NEIS) as your guideline for 110.12 workmanship issues (as referenced in the FPN), NECA 1, Section 9, Article N prohibits this practice.

Sorry, I don't see it. If you are talking about (C), NEC is refering to the equipment, not the conductor. Even then, I would ask for a definition of "bent." If you are calling into question "neat workmanship," I did open my post with, "Well, here it goes...":grin:

[mdshunk]

Sorry, I don't see it.

NECA 1, Article 9, Section N:
n) The length of conductors within cabinets and
cutout boxes shall be sufficient to neatly train the
conductor to the termination point with no excess
(see Figure 11). Allow sufficient cable length for thermal
contraction of conductors to prevent damage of
insulation or dislodging connections.

[360Youth]

Smart$ Nice.... Bet that costs a hunk of change$$$$

IMPO wish din rail were more commonly used.... Much of the control work I see is much less astetic or organized.

Yes, very nice. I see that 120 volt circuit you installed in that nice factory box. :grin: I kid. You should see the control boxes we come across at those "log flumes." I have spent hours trying to fix jumped wires and busted troughs. We have grown quite attatched to din rail. One of my next post, as soon as I get some pics, is "favorite tools." One of mine is the Greenlee drill tap set, from 6-32 to 1/4-20. It is great for mounting din rail and groundlugs almost anywhere you need them.

[e57]

110.12.

If you care to use NECA 1 (NEIS) as your guideline for 110.12 workmanship issues (as referenced in the FPN), NECA 1, Section 9, Article N prohibits this practice.

I've known some who feel that the lack of a loop is a workmanship issue. IMO it is not nessesary, but certainly not a code violation or workmanship issue. Lets call it 'style'... Some like shortest and direct (me), some a loop, some top to bottom and back and vise versa. And some of us are not governed by the NECA.

I know a guy who doubles up the conductor at every termination (Irish style) - now that might be a violation.....

[360Youth]

NECA 1, Article 9, Section N:
n) The length of conductors within cabinets and
cutout boxes shall be sufficient to neatly train the
conductor to the termination point with no excess
(see Figure 11). Allow sufficient cable length for thermal
contraction of conductors to prevent damage of
insulation or dislodging connections.

While I do not disagree, and it is not a preferable installation (note the other terminations) I would still submit "excess" as opinion. IMO, while I would rather not, the benefits of the extra wire within the useable space are not excessive, but I accept your opinion.

[Smart $]

Smart$ Nice.... Bet that costs a hunk of change$$$$
Thanks! Can't recall the cost of the machine, but thinking it broke seven figures.

IMPO wish din rail were more commonly used.... Much of the control work I see is much less astetic or organized.
Hmmm.... most control work I've done in the past few years has all used din-rail-mount devices. Heck, even the field-fabricated junction boxes use din-rail term' blocks.

[Dave85]

These are before and after pictures from a panel replacement.


Reminds me of my main panel before I got into putting the sub next to it.

Here's my main panel before any work was done on it:
http://i2.photobucket.com/albums/y22/moody07747/Projects/Sub%20Panel/th_oldpanel1.jpg (http://i2.photobucket.com/albums/y22/moody07747/Projects/Sub%20Panel/oldpanel1.jpg)

Then I put a 60A Square D QO sub next to it and installed a two poll 50A breaker in the main for the welder outlet I installed that day.

http://i2.photobucket.com/albums/y22/moody07747/Projects/Sub%20Panel/th_Subcoveroff2.jpg (http://i2.photobucket.com/albums/y22/moody07747/Projects/Sub%20Panel/Subcoveroff2.jpg) http://i2.photobucket.com/albums/y22/moody07747/Projects/Sub%20Panel/th_Subcoveroff1.jpg (http://i2.photobucket.com/albums/y22/moody07747/Projects/Sub%20Panel/Subcoveroff1.jpg) http://i2.photobucket.com/albums/y22/moody07747/Projects/Sub%20Panel/th_subandold.jpg (http://i2.photobucket.com/albums/y22/moody07747/Projects/Sub%20Panel/subandold.jpg)

Yea that sub is a little messy but I was working on short wires that day and didn't have slack to twist them and it was my first panel job.
I tried putting zip ties in there but the inspector was going to fail me for bundling in the panel...so I left them out.

And the outlet/pipe work photos:

Before:

http://i2.photobucket.com/albums/y22/moody07747/Projects/Sub%20Panel/th_near.jpg (http://i2.photobucket.com/albums/y22/moody07747/Projects/Sub%20Panel/near.jpg) http://i2.photobucket.com/albums/y22/moody07747/Projects/Sub%20Panel/th_far.jpg (http://i2.photobucket.com/albums/y22/moody07747/Projects/Sub%20Panel/far.jpg)


After:

http://i2.photobucket.com/albums/y22/moody07747/Projects/Sub%20Panel/th_NewEMT2.jpg (http://i2.photobucket.com/albums/y22/moody07747/Projects/Sub%20Panel/NewEMT2.jpg) http://i2.photobucket.com/albums/y22/moody07747/Projects/Sub%20Panel/th_NewEMT1.jpg (http://i2.photobucket.com/albums/y22/moody07747/Projects/Sub%20Panel/NewEMT1.jpg)

[e57]

Hmmm.... most control work I've done in the past few years has all used din-rail-mount devices. Heck, even the field-fabricated junction boxes use din-rail term' blocks.

Consider yourself lucky... I don't get the oprotunity to instal or fabricate them often - but I get to work in many. Usually from what I consider the worst decade for any trade - the seventies. 9X's out of 10 - if it looks like someone was listening to Black Sabbath and was chemically, mentaly and physically challenged when they installed it - with a little probing you might find a date of manufacture of 1974-1981. (Not all - you older guys - but a good deal of them)

[big vic]

OK, here goes. I'll run the risk and post photos. One is a house panel I am curently working on. I still have to run island stove circuit through the spare and I noticed the other day I forgot to put the smokes on AFCI. This is a smaller more manageable house and panel, so it is much easier to keep neat. The other photo is a 100 amp 3-phase ATS we just installed for a WWTP.

364

362

363

Are those white wires on the two pole breakers in that Homeline panel?

[George Stolz]

...I would still submit "excess" as opinion...
I agree. :)

[360Youth]

Are those white wires on the two pole breakers in that Homeline panel?

They are. One is water heater, the other 30 amp air handler. You can not tell from the photo, but I re-identify with red marker, usually stripes. I like it better than tape. Tape, to me, looks like I nicked the wire and patched it. That and I hate going to a panel years later and it is peeling off.

[davidaengelhart]

Please correct me if I have gone color blind or the picture is not portraying truthfully, but are those white wires with green transparent re-id tape terminating to some of those breakers? 200.7

[SurfSide EC]

If you are refering to my pics (360Youth), the photo does not show very well my re-identification with red marker. I put 3-4 continuous red stripes rather than tape. I don't like tape as reidentification on smaller wires. I think it complies with 200.7(C)(1).

[bstoin]

110.12.

If you care to use NECA 1 (NEIS) as your guideline for 110.12 workmanship issues (as referenced in the FPN), NECA 1, Section 9, Article N prohibits this practice.

Hate to rain on your parade, but...

FPNs are not to used as part of the code as well as other references, both of which "are for informational purposes only and not enforcable as requirements of this code" as per 90.5(C) Explanatory material

[mdshunk]

Hate to rain on your parade, but...You're not raining on my parade. That's why I predicated my comments with "...if you care to use...". You could just as easily use your company's own workmanship guidelines as a reference document for 110.12 matters.

[bstoin]

You're not raining on my parade. That's why I predicated my comments with "...if you care to use...". You could just as easily use your company's own workmanship guidelines as a reference document for 110.12 matters.
I thought you were responding to georgestolz's asking for a code reference on an issue...you referenced 110.12 along with the FPN.
If I missed something along the way it's understandable...this thread has become somewhat blurry.

[360Youth]

this thread has become somewhat blurry.

Interesting choice of words for a thread about installation photos.:grin: