Electrical Contracting without a Liscense?

[tadavidson]

How do temp agencies put thier clients on your job? The temp agency pays the temp employee making the person thier employee or in most cases I've heard of pays the temp with a 1099 making the person a self employed contractor (electrical). In Georgia it is my understanding that to do electrical work 1)You must be liscensed or (2)the employee of a liscensed contractor or company doing business with a liscense holder employed (3) Unless you work for a industry that all work is overseen by an engineer. Before you guys get going on me I go ahead and admit I know I am an idiot. I'm ok with that. It get worse as I get older. I'm certain there is a reasonable explanation, I just haven't been edumacated.

[ceb]

I have never used temp. help on my jobs however the way I look at it is if I did hire temps it would be for labor intensive work. But even if they were pulling wire,nailing boxes and such I am the lic. elect. I am overseeing the install and directing the job and not leaving the temps. to do the work on their on. So I see no problem with using temps. if needed

[kbsparky]

Using a temp worker is not electrical contracting on the part of the employee. You are still the one doing the contracting and as such, assume responsibility for the work.

When I first went into business, I used a temp agency to handle my employee affairs: They did all the payroll, paid the taxes, insurance, etc. I would fax the time cards over to the temp agency, and the workers would collect their paychecks from them.

I got an invoice once a week from the temp agency, and paid them to handle all the headaches of dealing with employees. Since that was their main line of work, it was a win-win situation.

[BigDon]

There was a case in Oklahoma where a temp agency was providing licensed journeymen to electrical contractors. But the attorney general ruled that the temp agency was the true employer of the journeymen, and as such, needed to be a licensed electrical contractor. Makes sense to me...

[tadavidson]

my point exactly. If any one is engauged in electrical work they must either be Liscensed or the EMPLOYEE of a Liscenced contractor or company. If they are paid with a 1099 they are representing they are contracting and if electrical work was the work of the month they were contracting without a liscense. The temp companies are contracting electrical work without a liscense if thier EMPLOYEES are doing electrical work.

[tadavidson]

Using a temp worker is not electrical contracting on the part of the employee. You are still the one doing the contracting and as such, assume responsibility for the work.

When I first went into business, I used a temp agency to handle my employee affairs: They did all the payroll, paid the taxes, insurance, etc. I would fax the time cards over to the temp agency, and the workers would collect their paychecks from them.

I got an invoice once a week from the temp agency, and paid them to handle all the headaches of dealing with employees. Since that was their main line of work, it was a win-win situation.



They were not your employees. They were employees of the Temp Agency and no matter how easy it was Temp Agency employees are doing electrical work so the Temp Agency is illegaly contracting electrical work.

[George Stolz]

TAD, I think the way the law is written in each state would determine whose license the employee is serving.

I'd say in general, a temp agency for electricians should have an EC license, and the employees should be serving under a master under that license. They receive their paychecks from the temp company, so in order to mirror a traditional EC they should have the licenses.

In the real world, I'm not sure how it shakes down, or if the state would get too worked up, so long as apprentices are working under the proper ratio of supervision as determined by the state, on site.

[bikeindy]

my point exactly. If any one is engauged in electrical work they must either be Liscensed or the EMPLOYEE of a Liscenced contractor or company. If they are paid with a 1099 they are representing they are contracting and if electrical work was the work of the month they were contracting without a liscense. The temp companies are contracting electrical work without a liscense if thier EMPLOYEES are doing electrical work.

It really depends on the State. Some States don't even have a license requirement. Mine is one of them, some of the cities in Indiana have requirements but not many. Indianapolis has a requirement to be licensed but to me it seems they are really only interested in the revenue they can collect from you, the inspection system is a JOKE here. Then there are some of our neighbor towns that have no local license requirement but have great inspectors. If I was a home owner I would opt for the latter. But it would be legal for a temp agency in Indianapolis to hire out Electricians since they would be working under the EC. Oh by the way a 1099 doesn't mean it is contract work a 1099 is for Miscellaneous Income. and ofcource any work done and paid for could be considered "contract" work if used very loosely. My personal opinion is that it would be much better if the government would get out of my business. I don't have a contract with them but they keep taking my money anyway.

[tadavidson]

Bikeindy, without a liscense requirement, I quess anybody who can buy a piece of wire and a wirenut can install it.
what is the going rate for an electrician (or should i say a person doing electrical work) in your state or area. Even with Georgia requiring a liscense the competition is great (liscensed and moonlighters) and supply and demand being what it is a small company trying to abide by the insurance laws and employement laws and tax laws has a difficult time making IT. By the waY Do you know of any stats on the number of electrocutions or fires in your area and how would you rate the overall quality of electrical work there?

[kbsparky]

They were not your employees. They were employees of the Temp Agency and no matter how easy it was Temp Agency employees are doing electrical work so the Temp Agency is illegaly contracting electrical work.I don't buy your line of thinking. The Temp agency did not hold itself out to the public for electrical contracting. I did that. I was on the job, supervising the workers. I merely contracted with the temp agency to handle the administrative part of handling payroll. The workers were screened and hired by me. Once hired, I referred them to the temp agency for the required paperwork.

Employee Leasing is one term used to describe this process.

Using this procedure, I did not have to obtain workmans Comp, nor pay any unemployment taxes.

And, FWIW, none of the "employees" received a 1099 form. Their wages were properly reported on W-2's.

[tadavidson]

Who issued the W-2? Employers issue w-2 forms to thier employees. To do electrical work in Georgia (all I can speak on)you must be liscensed or the employee of a liscensed.... Anyone not falling into one of the above catergories is contracting without a liscense.check out this link

http://www.sos.state.ga.us/acrobat/examboards/construction/EC/excerpts.pdf

[Fulthrotl]

How do temp agencies put thier clients on your job? The temp agency pays the temp employee making the person thier employee or in most cases I've heard of pays the temp with a 1099 making the person a self employed contractor (electrical). In Georgia it is my understanding that to do electrical work 1)You must be liscensed or (2)the employee of a liscensed contractor or company doing business with a liscense holder employed (3) Unless you work for a industry that all work is overseen by an engineer. Before you guys get going on me I go ahead and admit I know I am an idiot. I'm ok with that. It get worse as I get older. I'm certain there is a reasonable explanation, I just haven't been edumacated.

in calif. you are required to have a journeyman's license to perform work,
and a contractors license if the job total exceeds $500, which explains
all the craigslist specials for 4 kitchen can lights in the soffit for $499...

for that matter, there is a service advertising on craigslist that will send
you a number of different trades, with the guarantee that "no job will be
over $500"....

around here, if you strap on the tools, you need a journeyman's license,
but the state hasn't the means to enforce it... so it's a toothless law at
this point.... you do need a JW license to clear out of any electricians
local, except for the one serving LADWP, as they are exempt from
the JW license issue.



randy

[tadavidson]

Welcome to the forum fulthrotl.

[Sierrasparky]

[QUOTE=Fulthrotl]in calif. you are required to have a journeyman's license to perform work,


Fulthrotl

as a Ca EC . I need to correct you a bit. Yes you need to be a certified JM to work on your own for only a licensed C-10 contractor. A C-10 contractor may have 10 JM and 10 Trainees as long as there is a 1-1 JM to TR.
You can work as an employee for a general contractor "B" installing Electriacl regardless of training and qualifacations.
Your JM license does not authorize you to do any installation by yourself and contracted by yourself.
Anyone can do work under 500 dollars total.
The license for JM is relatively new. I suppose in a few years Inspectors will be asking to see your card.

[tadavidson]

Sierrasparky what are the abbreviations.
JM, certified JM ,licensed C-10 contractor. TR
general contractor "B"

In Georgia you have a Licensed or employee of a liscensed Electrician allowed to work in electrical field. Unless you are Union. Then terms apply such a apprentice, journeyman, and possibly more. I not knowledgable about Unions.

If someone can enlighten me please do.

[Sierrasparky]

no problem..
JM - journeyman (certified by the state, passed test )
C-10 classification of Electrical contractor in Calif. C-10 holder is allowed to
contract and do the work himslef.

General contractor or "B" classification. Can contract or do the work himself, hire subcontractors to do various trades.

[kbsparky]

Who issued the W-2? Employers issue w-2 forms to thier employees. To do electrical work in Georgia (all I can speak on)you must be liscensed or the employee of a liscensed.... Anyone not falling into one of the above catergories is contracting without a liscense.check out this link

http://www.sos.state.ga.us/acrobat/examboards/construction/EC/excerpts.pdf

I checked out your link, and could not find anything that prohibits the practice of outsourcing one's payroll duties to another company. Regardless of who issued the W-2, the employees were working under the direct supervision of the licensed master electrician on the job, materially fulfillilng the statutory requirements.

[tadavidson]

What is the extent of the test? What is different in the test of the jm and the c10.
Why does the c10 require a 1:1 but not the "b".
Would it be fair to say the B is the more desireable of the two?
What is extent of the test or requirements that allow the "B" to have persons do electrical work?

I apologize for the third degree.

[tadavidson]

I believe the statement is made in the first three paragraphs. with regards to performing repair, installing electrical devices or equipment. (electrical contracting)

It does not say nor imply that as long as a licenced electrical contractor supervises the duties of the workers the installation is covered.

As for someone to do the payroll duties I don't argue that point. many people hire CPA's to do theit payroll/ No problem with that.

The person who signs the check must be the employer/ Electrical Contractor or a corp or company.with a liscened Qualifier.

By the way is that John candy in your avator?
The temp agency may be ok in just providing men to do a job. But the men they send a person is certainly doing the work defined as electrical contracting. which they cannot do according to para 3.

[tadavidson]

By the way KBsparky is that John Candy in your avator?

[tadavidson]

Thanks for the feedback Guys. I stop beating this one.

[Sierrasparky]

B licsnse is a general contractor. He is licensed to do the entire project not just electrical. He can do the plumbing ,concrete, framing ... In order for the B License to contract a job he must contract for at least three trades I belive.
The crazy part is that He can do his own electrical even if he knows nothing about it. He can hire any joe blow off the street as an employee to wire the place, and with no supervision.

California only made the law to pertain to Electrical contractrors (C-10)

[LarryFine]

By the way KBsparky is that John Candy in your avator?It looks like George Wendt to me. :smile:

[QES]

I think this law about a c10 require cert. electrial worker is all about money. I think its was lobby by the some union. :)

[Sierrasparky]

I heard it was lobbied by the IBEW. they could care less about the General contractor thing because most union jobs reguire that the contractor be acutually licensed in that trade. They probobly never considerd the single family housing market where the GC could do all the trades.:roll:

[QES]

Division of Apprenticeship Standards (DAS) have almost zero enforcement. Only the contractors board have some sort of enforement. But only enforce the contracting lic.

[tadavidson]

B licsnse is a general contractor..
The crazy part is that He can do his own electrical even if he knows nothing about it. He can hire any joe blow off the street as an employee to wire the place, and with no supervision.

California only made the law to pertain to Electrical contractrors (C-10)

THIS IS THE MOST OUTRAGEOUS SLAP IN THE FACE, KICK IN THE PANTS, UNREASONABLE STATEMENT IN REFERENCE TO THE BUILDING TRADE I HAVE EVER BEEN EXPOSED TO. Incredible. I thought some of Georgias junk was it but now I ..... A small electrical job requires a liscense and trained people but a big job doesn't. Brings the Troops back from Iraq, There are terrorist in California.

[Skroell]

How is a temp agency any different than a union?.The union isn't licensed.
Any way Tadavidson license is spelled license not liscense.

[Romex Racer]

B licsnse is a general contractor. He is licensed to do the entire project not just electrical. He can do the plumbing ,concrete, framing ... In order for the B License to contract a job he must contract for at least three trades I belive.
The crazy part is that He can do his own electrical even if he knows nothing about it. He can hire any joe blow off the street as an employee to wire the place, and with no supervision.

California only made the law to pertain to Electrical contractrors (C-10)

The requirement that electricians be certified pertains to electricians working for Electrical Contractors, not the Electrical Contractors themselves. As you know, there are no penalties for violations of this law, but if there were, it would be the uncertified electrician, not the Electrical Contractor who would be penalized...

[Sierrasparky]

sorry if you mis understood me.
I was just pointing out that general contractors don't need to hire certificated employees. as do Electrical contractors.

Yes there are fines. You could be disciplined by the contractors board for violation of the labor code.

The labor board can fine the contractor.
The inspector could shut down the job. (maybe)

It's not all sorted out but they could make the small contractor's life hell.

[bikeindy]

Bikeindy, without a liscense requirement, I quess anybody who can buy a piece of wire and a wirenut can install it.
what is the going rate for an electrician (or should i say a person doing electrical work) in your state or area. Even with Georgia requiring a liscense the competition is great (liscensed and moonlighters) and supply and demand being what it is a small company trying to abide by the insurance laws and employement laws and tax laws has a difficult time making IT. By the waY Do you know of any stats on the number of electrocutions or fires in your area and how would you rate the overall quality of electrical work there?

Well I don't suspect they would be in business very long but i suppose anyone who could buy wire and install it could call themself an EC. It all goes back to consumers being aware of who they hire. I don't think we have very many fires or electrocutions around here due to the non licensing. A kid was just Electrocuted on the Campus of Purdue U. I quess that work was done by licensed qualified union guys and that kid didn't belong where he was. and some guy just died this morning in his house fire cuz he went back in after his precious cell phone.

I think if you do good work and charge a reasonable rate you shouldn't have a hard time making it at all.

[Romex Racer]

sorry if you mis understood me.
I was just pointing out that general contractors don't need to hire certificated employees. as do Electrical contractors.

Yes there are fines. You could be disciplined by the contractors board for violation of the labor code.

The labor board can fine the contractor.
The inspector could shut down the job. (maybe)

It's not all sorted out but they could make the small contractor's life hell.

None of those statements can be supported by fact.

[kbsparky]

By the way KBsparky is that John Candy in your avator?Nope. That's me, on the top of the Space Needle in Seattle.:D

[e57]

First my apologies to the original poster.... But this subject is my personal pet peev...

In CA an electrical contracor (C-10), or even a "B", or for that matter an ice cream shop can employ anyone they like! (so long as they don't disciminate...) And call that person an "electrician"... The onus is not on the employer to require that the electrician be certified by the state. That responcability is with the employee of the C-10 to be certified to install or service anything over 100va.

The only time a C-10 is required to have certified workers at this point is on Public Works projects, due to the requirement to hire apprentices for that work...

There is nothing in the B&P code that regulates employers and contractors that says they need to pay any attention what-so-ever about the certification requirements of thier employees - except aspestos workers...

This is an apprenticeship and training law... And governs entry to, and training of the trade. The only penalty to an employer is this dope deal is that if an employer doesn't follow the rules of training an apprentice - he might not be dispatched anymore apprentices. He can still employ anyone he wants at this point. And hopefully that will change!

At one point this law said, "all employees of a C-10 contractor" needed to be certified to perform electrical work, and later changed to "persons who perform work for" an EC - when they changed that wording, they removed the onus from the employer and placed it on the employee. In doing that they made it unenforcable and screwed the worker in the process. As training and compliance is now his problem.

~As used in this section, "electricians" includes all persons
who engage in the connection of electrical devices for electrical
contractors licensed pursuant to Section 7058 of the Business and
Professions Code, specifically, contractors classified as electrical
contractors in the Contractors' State License Board Rules and
Regulations. This section does not apply to electrical connections
under 100 volt-amperes.~

~Persons who perform work as electricians shall
become certified pursuant to Section 3099 by the deadline specified
in this subdivision. After the applicable deadline, uncertified
persons may not perform electrical work for which certification is
required.


~Certification is required only for those persons who perform
work as electricians for contractors licensed as class C-10
electrical contractors~

As far as enforcement goes - the DAS itself is in violation IMO...3099(4) On or before July 1, 2001, establish and adopt regulations to
enforce this section.



The law is here in section 3099: http://www.leginfo.ca.gov/cgi-bin/displaycode?section=lab&group=03001-04000&file=3070-3099.5

And the regulations of the same law can be found here: http://www.dir.ca.gov/DAS/ecu/Leg-Reg-List.html

[radiopet]

Interesting...in VA to be an EC you have to be 1.) Master Electrician and 2.) Class A, B or C Contractors license. Also if you are a B or A contractor you have to also take an additional proctored test with the state as well.

Now the EC can hire anyone they wish and put them on the job....they are working under the masters license and in the end the the weight is on the Master Electrician to ensure it is being done correctly.

Contracting electrical work in VA without a license has a $ 1,000 fine per day from the date the infraction started.....plus other criminal charges.

However...does that stop people.....sadly NOPE......

[Romex Racer]

Nope. That's me, on the top of the Space Needle in Seattle.:D

That's me in my avatar too...

[kbsparky]

Just call you "Fester"?? LOL :grin:

[tyha]

The reason the temps dont need a license is because they are not contracting electrical work . They are only leasing employees to do what you need them to do. Thats the business they are in. You are the one doing the electrical CONTRACTING. Therefore you need the license. They're not out there bidding and managing work. Thats what we do.

[tadavidson]

Oh! OK, Now I understand.

[Sierrasparky]

I served on several test writing panels for the CSLB recently. This topic was discused greatly. I have a differing opinion.
Please see this
http://www.cslb.ca.gov/news/industry20070205.asp

Contractors State License Board Warns Electricians That Deadline for Certification Has Passed

Sacramento –- In 1999, legislation was passed requiring all electricians who work for a C-10 electrical contractor to be certified by the state of California. Regulations were put in place in 2002. The deadline for residential electricians getting this certification was January 1, 2007. The deadline for general electricians and fire/life/safety electricians was a year ago January 1, 2006. Electricians who are not certified by this time are working illegally.
The Contractors State License Board (CSLB) is urging all electricians who work for C-10 electrical contractors to immediately sign up to take a certification exam. Not complying with the law could subject the licensee to administrative action by the CSLB. It could potentially open these contractors and workers up to civil suits should there be problems with work done by an uncertified worker.

The CSLB has the right to get involved in any of your buisness relating to CSLB licensure. If you don't pull permits and get caught the can cause you trouble. If you get a compliant they get involved.

The labor board too can get involved in labor issues.... Will these departments bother the small guy.????
The inspectors to can get involved..The may do so indirectly by submitting a complaint to the proper authority.. Will they..

All I know is that both departments know it applies to all C-10 contractors. Not just public work jobs
Just cause you don;t think its an issue is somewhat close minded. Ya never know when they may make a sting..

I bet that you all did not know that CAL OSHA can cite contractors on private small house remodels.. Well they can...

[LawnGuyLandSparky]

How is a temp agency any different than a union?.The union isn't licensed.
Any way Tadavidson license is spelled license not liscense.

A temp agency acts as the defacto employer. A union does not. A temp's paycheck will read "abc temp agancy" not "ABC electric." A union worker's paycheck will read "Joe's electric" not "Local 5000."

[tadavidson]

Just to clarify a couple of things.
1. post #20 by me was an attempt at humor.
2. All my points were based on GEORGIA rules (laws), which require the worker to be licensed or the EMPLOYEE of a licensed Electrical Contractor to do any type of Electrical related work.
3. regarding post # 35 I like the requirements in VA
4. regarding post #38 by tyha, I was being sarcastic.
5. In post # 15 I spelled licensed orrectly.
6. regarding post # 28 by SKROELL I don't care about the spelin ( please ignore the capitalization errors at the beginning of these statements)
7. In my first post i gave a complete disclaimer.
8. I did stop beating it I just came back by to kick it to see if I was playing possum. (A georgia saying regarding something pretending to be dead to avoid predators) by the was the correct spelling is Opossum.