Estimating an upgrade of a home from Aluminum to Copper.

[aelectricalman]

Has anyone ever done this? What would be a good square footage price? Is square footage the way to go? this home is roughly 3500 square foot. All aluminum 15 and 20 amp feeders and branch circuits are being removed. I really dont even know where to start. All I have to go by is there is attic and basement access. It is a two story home. Are there ways to make it safe without rewiring it? Thanks for help.

[macmikeman]

Best time is when the house is getting an addition and you can convince the owner to have enough of the sheetrock removed to allow you to rewire completly the whole thing. Then when the new addition gets rocked, they can patch up all the removed from existing also. It is pretty hard to rewire a house that has existing nmc with staples, aluminum or not.

[LarryFine]

The truly best way to completely rewire a house is to gut it, meaning strip the walls and ceilings down to the framing, and wire it like a new house. Barring that, I'd insist on T&M.

[mdshunk]

With basement and attic access, no problem. It doesn't matter that is was aluminium before... it's just another old home rewire from a technical standpoint. About $155 per hole, plus hardwired interconnected smokes plus AFCI's and whatever else extra the inspector wants. Probably a service change too, since if you're dealing with AL, you're probably also faced with service equipment that is near the end of its useful life.

[LarryFine]

With basement and attic access, no problem.What about the first-floor ceilings?

[mdshunk]

What about the first-floor ceilings?What about them? :D They're the only obstacle, but you can never guarantee the maintenance of the wall finish materials. Often times, you can fish up a wall cavity from the basement that lines up with the joist cavity the light is in, then just cut a small hole to get through the top plate of the wall and go across.

Repair of drywall/plaster and painting is never in my bid.

[ceknight]

With basement and attic access, no problem. It doesn't matter that is was aluminium before... it's just another old home rewire from a technical standpoint. About $155 per hole, plus hardwired interconnected smokes plus AFCI's and whatever else extra the inspector wants.

That was exactly my thought when I read the OP. It's just a rewire, you have access from above and below, no prob. I'm even with you on the cost -- I charge about that per opening for an old house with top/bottom access, something this modern (with "normal" framing) ought to go quicker so it'd probably yield a tidy profit.

[aelectricalman]

There is actually access to the first floor ceilings (marginal) on the sides. There is an attic walk out from the second floor on both sides.

[Fulthrotl]

Has anyone ever done this? What would be a good square footage price? Is square footage the way to go? this home is roughly 3500 square foot. All aluminum 15 and 20 amp feeders and branch circuits are being removed. I really dont even know where to start. All I have to go by is there is attic and basement access. It is a two story home. Are there ways to make it safe without rewiring it? Thanks for help.

there are only two accepted methods of doing this..... first, rip it out and
replace it.

second, if you are certified for copalum termination, you can use that product. it is the *only* acceptable method for terminating type 1
aluminum romex. noalox is nice, but not approved. pigtailing with stranded copper is suggested, but not approved.

downside is the cost. the certification from the manufacturer is a couple
thousand, and the specialty hypress tool is about $300 a month to *lease*.
the crimps are a buck or so each.... and let's not forget a $5m general liability policy.... it is aluminum wire, after all....

end cost to the homeowner comes out to around $5k, but no holes
in the walls..... then you get to leave that tool in the back of the
truck for a year and a half at $300 per month, waiting for the next
"big one"....

here's a link to the copalum site.... amp connectors makes it, and tyco
bought them....

http://catalog.tycoelectronics.com/TE/bin/TE.Connect?C=10914&F=0&M=CINF&GIID=968&BML=&PID=0&LG=1&I=13&RQS=C~10914^P~29243^M~PROP^N~1^IDS~32001


randy

[petersonra]

Best time is when the house is getting an addition and you can convince the owner to have enough of the sheetrock removed to allow you to rewire completely the whole thing. Then when the new addition gets rocked, they can patch up all the removed from existing also. It is pretty hard to rewire a house that has existing nmc with staples, aluminum or not.

Why would existing wiring ever have to be removed? Cut it off and leave it in place if they don't want to pay for a gut job.

I agree with the guy that suggested it might make sense to replace the service equipment. Anything with aluminum interior wiring is likely to be old enough that replacing the panelboard makes sense.

It probably would be worthwhile to replace all the outlets and switches as well, since at 50 cents each you will spend more money in labor trying to save them than it will cost you to replace them.

[mdshunk]

It probably would be worthwhile to replace all the outlets and switches as well, since at 50 cents each you will spend more money in labor trying to save them than it will cost you to replace them.Yup, that's a no brainer. I generally replace any receptacles and switches that I've had out for troubleshooting purposes, if they have some age on them. The last guy that touches it gets blamed when it breaks. Replace them.. people don't care that it's on the bill. They generally rather like the new, "clean" device.

[jaylectricity]

Yup, that's a no brainer. I generally replace any receptacles and switches that I've had out for troubleshooting purposes, if they have some age on them. The last guy that touches it gets blamed when it breaks. Replace them.. people don't care that it's on the bill. They generally rather like the new, "clean" device.


You know Marc, I have had a hard time convincing people to pay me to do the right thing. I constantly run into people that don't get it. Quincy, MA is one of those cities that is hard to sell things.

Am I just a bad salesman or is there some trick to this?

[petersonra]

You know Marc, I have had a hard time convincing people to pay me to do the right thing. I constantly run into people that don't get it. Quincy, MA is one of those cities that is hard to sell things.

Am I just a bad salesman or is there some trick to this?

Why would you even tell them you are replacing the outlets and switches? You are doing it to save money. In this case the right thing is the cheaper thing.

[jaylectricity]

Why would you even tell them you are replacing the outlets and switches? You are doing it to save money. In this case the right thing is the cheaper thing.

Because I don't like the stressful part of doing work without knowing whether they will write the check after I tell them the "extras" I am providing for their benefit. Like I said, some people just don't get it. But I don't have the luxury of picking and choosing my customers at this point.

[LawnGuyLandSparky]

You know Marc, I have had a hard time convincing people to pay me to do the right thing. I constantly run into people that don't get it. Quincy, MA is one of those cities that is hard to sell things.

Am I just a bad salesman or is there some trick to this?

The trick is "do you want me to reinstall these old,cracked, dried up, lead-painted, dime-store devices that could fail at any time and possibly explode in your children's faces, or, would you like to use these brand new, clean, modern, decora devices in a hue that matches your sophisticated color palette?"

[petersonra]

Because I don't like the stressful part of doing work without knowing whether they will write the check after I tell them the "extras" I am providing for their benefit. Like I said, some people just don't get it. But I don't have the luxury of picking and choosing my customers at this point.

Its not an "extra". Stop thinking that way. It is like when a plumber comes to fix a leak. He does not normally ask you if he can replace something old that is near the end of its lifespan and amy well fail just due to being messed with. he just declares it defective.

[jaylectricity]

The trick is "do you want me to reinstall these old,cracked, dried up, lead-painted, dime-store devices that could fail at any time and possibly explode in your children's faces, or, would you like to use these brand new, clean, modern, decora devices in a hue that matches your sophisticated color palette?"

Could they really blow up in somebody's face? I am agreeing with you and the others, but I have such a hard time saying things that I don't know to be true. I've never heard of a switch or plug blowing up in a child's face.

I really am trying to instill a sense of honesty in this world. Not just with electricity, but in general. I think that our world is going to crap because of dishonesty. I know that money instills dishonesty in almost everything.

Sorry to get "out there" on you guys, I just need to be confident that I am using the truth to peddle my wares.

[mdshunk]

Its not an "extra". Stop thinking that way. It is like when a plumber comes to fix a leak. He does not normally ask you if he can replace something old that is near the end of its lifespan and amy well fail just due to being messed with. he just declares it defective.Exactly. Just replace the thing, and put it on the bill. Honestly, it's no big deal. Every time I take a truck to the garage, they don't ask permission for every little thing they replace. I take it in, declaring some problem, and they replace some stuff and the problem's fixed. Maybe some of that stuff was actually functional, but at the end of its life? Hard to say, but it was the right thing to do.

Now then, if the devices look relatively modern, don't replace them. If they look like they've seen some good use, go ahead. People really don't mind, and many are thankful. It only takes a minute. It's not really even a money-maker.... it's more of a CYA maneuver for me.

[wireman2000]

I agree with Marc

[petersonra]

Exactly. Just replace the thing, and put it on the bill. Honestly, it's no big deal. Every time I take a truck to the garage, they don't ask permission for every little thing they replace. I take it in, declaring some problem, and they replace some stuff and the problem's fixed. Maybe some of that stuff was actually functional, but at the end of its life? Hard to say, but it was the right thing to do.

Now then, if the devices look relatively modern, don't replace them. If they look like they've seen some good use, go ahead. People really don't mind, and many are thankful. It only takes a minute. It's not really even a money-maker.... it's more of a CYA maneuver for me.

One caveat. People are not stupid. If you install a 39 cent outlet and try to charge them $20 for the part, they will object, and they should.

[aline]

One caveat. People are not stupid. If you install a 39 cent outlet and try to charge them $20 for the part, they will object, and they should.
That's why I give them a free receptacle with the installation and just charge $20 more in labor. :)

Or if they prefer I'll give them free labor with the purchase of a receptacle but it's going to be one expensive receptacle.

Or they can supply their own receptacle. No warranty though.

In each case the price is the same. :)

[mdshunk]

One caveat. People are not stupid. If you install a 39 cent outlet and try to charge them $20 for the part, they will object, and they should.If you've managed to charge 20 bucks per resi grade duplex receptacle as a line item, ever, I'd like to shake your hand. :rolleyes:

[satcom]

Yesterday one of my neighbors asked me to stop by a look at a fixture he needs hung, while I was there a plumber came to fix a dripping bath faucet, he was there less then 20 minutes, used two 30 cent washers, presented a bill for $239, He was thanked for his prompt service, and handed a check, after he left, they did nothing but praise him.

What in the world is so stressful, about asking to be paid for your services, if it is that difficult to ask for your worth, working for someone else, may be your best bet.

The average customer is not looking to check your line items, or hold a stopwatch while you work, they called because they need prompt reliable service.

Every once in a while you may get a line item customer, this type of customer would complain, if you did the job for nothing.

[emahler]

how come when a guy works for someone else, he feels he's worth $50/hr in the pocket....but when he goes out on his own, he's afraid to charge enough money to pay himself $50/hr in the pocket?

[RUWIREDRITE]

Here in New Jersey I own one of these beasts that does the terminations. We had many developments wired in the 70's with aluminum branch circuits. Let me say from experiance, its no picinic repairing one of these homes even with the proper equipment.They normally average about 1500 square feet and about a hundred outlets per home. It usually takes us about two days to do one , because we have to deal with furniture and all.My units pneumatic, so you also have to drag hoses and heat guns around all day to finish the splices correctly.Most of these projects i optied for a complete rewire, but for the total cost ,copalum was still cheaper.We averaged about 50-100 dollars an outlet depending on how many splices had to be done
Hope this helped

[Sonny Boy]

If it's gutted.

[macmikeman]

If it's gutted.

I find that even when gutted, it still takes longer to rewire those jobs than if it was brand new and you are installing new wiring for the first time. If required to expound on this, I would guess this has a bit to do with sheetrock dust from the opening up of the walls adding a bit of friction to the new cable getting pulled thru existing holes.