Two parts-out door hottub/service call charging [Archive]

jdelectricsvc

04-06-2007, 05:55 PM

We're located in "hickville," Iowa, so we don't receive many service calls for outdoor hottubs. On this rare occasion, the customer called and stated they needed a 240V 60A Siemens breaker. The original breaker was already taken out of the sub-panel...new one installed but I noticed the load neutral was installed on the neutral bar. Thinking this wasn't right I put the load neutral on the breaker and the pigtale on the neutral bar, but it instantly tripped and wouldn't reset. The hottub was still under warranty so I told the customer that there was still a problem and I wans't going to void their warranty by opening the hottub up. The technician shows up and says both neutrals must be on the neutral bar. Low and behold......it works, but can someone please give a clear reason behind not having a load neutral installed on the GFCI breaker and just installing the "line" pigtale neutral of the breaker to neutral bar? This sorts of defies the logic behind having the GFCI breaker. I furnished the new breaker, but because I installed the new breaker incorrectly and had to have the service tech come back how do you charge, if at all for the second service call...chalk it up to being taught something new and forget it.........

mdshunk

04-06-2007, 06:32 PM

There's a problem with that hot tub, brother. Is your insurance paid up?

wbalsam1

04-06-2007, 06:39 PM

:) We're located in "hickville," Iowa, so we don't receive many service calls for outdoor hottubs. On this rare occasion,......
We got a "Hickville" here in upstate New York, tew. 'Cept we don't got no lek-tri -sity fer r hottubs. :grin: :D Kuzin Buford sez he's got a kerosene powered TV, but ya caint beleeve him.:roll:
384

In answer to your question, you might have to eat the service charge, but not without explaining the condition you were faced with in the beginning. The guys around here in the supply houses are forever robbing parts out of one box and providing them for another...with the intent of replacing stuff, but forgetting to.

yanici

04-06-2007, 06:52 PM

The technician shows up and says both neutrals must be on the neutral bar. Low and behold......it works, but can someone please give a clear reason behind not having a load neutral installed on the GFCI breaker and just installing the "line" pigtale neutral of the breaker to neutral bar? This sorts of defies the logic behind having the GFCI breaker.......

Huh?:confused:

benmin

04-06-2007, 07:08 PM

There's a problem with that hot tub, brother.

I agree.....

satcom

04-06-2007, 07:20 PM

There's a problem with that hot tub, brother. Is your insurance paid up?

Yup make sure your insurance is paid up, The GFCIs used for 220V applications, need to look at both Hots as well as neutral. The principles are basically the same as 120v GFCIs Sum of the currents in (hot1 + hot2) plus (neutral should be at zero unless a fault exists).

"can someone please give a clear reason behind not having a load neutral installed on the GFCI breaker and just installing the "line" pigtale neutral of the breaker to neutral bar? "

Yes, someone din't read the instructions.

"The technician shows up and says both neutrals must be on the neutral bar"

just installing the "line" pigtale neutral of the breaker, to neutral bar does not offer any protection on the neutral, I would wire the breaker per manufacture instructions and let the so called tech find the problem in the tub.

hardworkingstiff

04-06-2007, 08:00 PM

Did you check to see if the circuit neutral was grounded (with it lifted from the neutral bar in the panel and lifted at the hot tub)?

don_resqcapt19

04-06-2007, 08:46 PM

satcom

04-06-2007, 08:52 PM

mdshunk

04-06-2007, 08:56 PM

Is the hot tub using the neutral as a neutral or as an EGC? It sounds like it is being used as and EGC. If it were being used as neutral, the GFCI would trip under load, if it is being used as an EGC and connected to the breaker it would trip instantly.
DonHow can a neutral be used as an EGC? It's either an neutral or it's an EGC or it has a non-compliant bond. In any event, there's trouble.

benmin

04-06-2007, 09:05 PM

The technician shows up and says both neutrals must be on the neutral bar.

is the Technician telling the Electrician how to make it work?

mdshunk

04-06-2007, 09:12 PM

is the Technician telling the Electrician how to make it work?That's what it sounds like to me. I've have gotten out a micro-ohm meter and a megger right off the bat.

don_resqcapt19

04-06-2007, 09:41 PM

Marc,
How can a neutral be used as an EGC? It's either an neutral or it's an EGC or it has a non-compliant bond. In any event, there's trouble.
It is a white wire being used as a green wire. If it were really being used as a neutral, that is with load current, the GFCI would not hold with the neutral connected to the neutral bar.
Don

emahler

04-06-2007, 09:43 PM

Perfect example of why you need to know everything electrical....you got outshined and bullied by a guy with minimal training on a specific product. WTF does he know about how electricity works? That's your job. And you, in front of the customer, let the minimum wage spa tech make you look incompetent.

Good luck. Chalk the money up as tuition, and don't let it happen again.

emahler

04-06-2007, 10:17 PM

I'm sorry...that was mean and negative. don't worry about it...shake it off...the customer won't even remember. Send them the bill, if they don't want to pay, don't worry about it. It's only money.

[****pats OP on the back***]it'll be ok...keep your chin up....

Dnkldorf

04-06-2007, 10:20 PM

I'm sorry...that was mean and negative.

Showing your true colors again, I see.

Them 2 posts of yours are just wrong.

emahler

04-06-2007, 10:29 PM

I'll take that advice into consideration.

I apologized and made nice, what more can I do?

Why do you hate me so much? I just want everyone to be happy

1793

04-06-2007, 10:50 PM

...new one installed but I noticed the load neutral was installed on the neutral bar. Thinking this wasn't right I put the load neutral on the breaker and the pigtale on the neutral bar...

I just walked in from a run just this evening where I hooked up the pigtail for an outdoor Hot-tub. After making up the connections of the disconnect I tested the lines. I had 240 volts line to line, when I tested Line to neutral, it tripped the GFCI breaker. I opened up the panel the GFCI breaker had the pigtail to the neutral bar. I tested from the line at the breaker to neutral and the breaker tripped yet again. I noticed that the neutral out to the Hot-tub was connected straight to the neutral bar in the main panel. Moved the Hot-tub neutral to the GFCI breaker, reset and teated again: this time it held when tested from line to neutral and tripped when teated from line to Ground, as it should.

Just thought I would throw this out for anyone who might be interested.

ceb

04-07-2007, 08:51 AM

mdshunk

04-07-2007, 12:45 PM

I had the same situation with a hot tub, hooked the gfci breaker with neutral to breaker, pig tail to bar. Breaker would trip. When all fails read the mfg. wiring instructions taped to the inside of the cover, their in black and white is the drawing showing no neutral just the pigtail from breaker landing on neutral bar, egc landing on ground lug. looked closer terminal bar shows where to land the two hot and egc but no where did it show a lug for the neutral.That makes no sense. If the tub didn't use a neutral, it shouldn't matter a hill of beans if you have the unused neutral landed on the neutral lug of the GFCI breaker. If you have a neutral hooked to some lug at the tub end, and the breaker trips, there must be a non-compliant bond at the tub someplace, I would think.

ceb

04-07-2007, 12:57 PM

Marc, You are correct. It was my "bad" the lug was non compliant on the terminal and I should have posted that. But thinking about this install what good is the gfic breaker? Their is no neutral

mdshunk

04-07-2007, 01:01 PM

. But thinking about this install what good is the gfic breaker? Their is no neutralA 2-pole GFCI breaker doesn't need a neutral to function. If there's any imbalance that isn't accounted for by analyzing both legs along with something possible on the neutral, it must be going to ground or a person. Doesn't need a neutral to trip.

There's just something fundamentally wrong with a hot tub that trips when you properly connect the GFCI breaker, and that's all you can say for sure about that.

JohnJ0906

04-08-2007, 08:06 AM

Did this so-called "technician" actually CHECK anything at the hot tub itself? I agree with Marc, there is a problem somewhere in the tub.

emahler

04-08-2007, 08:12 AM

my guess is no. There is an old saying "If you dazzle them with your knowledge, baffle them with your BS"

I think the sauna tech succeeded with the 2nd part.

RUWIREDRITE

04-08-2007, 09:40 AM

Another thing to consider is to make sure all your conductors are the same gauge on the load side of that gfci breaker.I had some Hot Spring spas nuisance tripping the Gfci because the ground was under sized. I have also come across these dual feed tubs fed with a 60 amp feeder that changed to a 20 and 30 double pole to feed there motors and heat seperately, they really dont like an undersized ground.

Dennis Alwon

04-08-2007, 09:51 AM

nuisance tripping the Gfci because the ground was under sized. They really dont like an undersized ground.

That doesn't makre sense. A GFCI can work without a ground. Please explain how the GFI knows the ground is too small.

RUWIREDRITE

04-08-2007, 10:04 AM

I have seen installations in the past where someone skinned 6/3 romex and used it on the load side of the raintight disconnect. the gfci tripped occasionally. i went back pulling 4- #6 in the pvc conduit, the problem vanished. I called the tech line for the tub in question, they said i did the proper repair.There tub technology must sense ground sizing i figure.

Dennis Alwon

04-08-2007, 10:14 AM

There tub technology must sense ground sizing i figure.

Or perhaps whoever skinned the NM cable cut a little to deep and nicked one of the wires.

iwire

04-08-2007, 10:18 AM

Or perhaps whoever skinned the NM cable cut a little to deep and nicked one of the wires.

That is a an astute thought, I agree a neutral to EGC fault could trip the GFCI.

The reduced size EGC (higher impedance path back to the source) would be less likely to trip a GFCI.

RUWIREDRITE

04-08-2007, 10:25 AM

If the ground size isnt an issue as stated how come you can trip a gfci by touching the ground and neutral together on the load side of a gfci. I think its monitering the ground also, and impediance can be an issue.

JohnJ0906

04-08-2007, 10:43 AM

If the ground size isn't an issue as stated how come you can trip a gfci by touching the ground and neutral together on the load side of a gfci. I think its monitoring the ground also, and impedance can be an issue.

No it monitors the hot (s) and neutral, not the ground.

BTW, your avatar looks like me heading for the coffee pot at 5 am every morning. When did you sneak in my apartment and take that picture?:D

RUWIREDRITE

04-08-2007, 10:47 AM

Again i ask if the ground is not monitered, how come you can trip a gfci by touching the load neutral to ground?
You should see the animated version of my avatar, pretty cool?
I used it for my halloween decorations in my front yard, lol

iwire

04-08-2007, 10:50 AM

No it monitors the hot (s) and neutral, not the ground.

I agree.

All a GFCI does is compare the current at any given moment on the circuit conductors (not including the EGC) if at any moment the current on the circuit conductors is not the same by more than about 5 ma the GFCI will trip.

The reason a neutral to ground connection on the load side of a GFCI will trip a GFCI is because some of the circuit current will head back to the source on the grounding conductor.

JohnJ0906

04-08-2007, 10:51 AM

A GFCI will work just fine, and trip just fine with NO EGC! That is why they are used as receptacle replacements where there is no EGC. NEC 406.3 (D)

Dennis Alwon

04-08-2007, 10:52 AM

If a Gfci won't trip without a ground why would it trip if an undersized ground were there. I have hooked GFCI to old circuits with reduced grounds without a problem.

iwire

04-08-2007, 11:00 AM

If a Gfci won't trip without a ground why would it trip if an undersized ground were there.

Another great point. :)

RUWIREDRITE

04-08-2007, 11:00 AM

I agree and understand your findings on this, but how do i explain to the consumer the hot tub technician says this will fix there nuisance trip. I raise an eyebrow but do it as told and it works. Gotta keep them happy i guess no matter what the diagnosis or code is.

Dennis Alwon

04-08-2007, 11:23 AM

Without knowing the entire situation I would not venture a guess but I will tell you that techicians for the tub are not necessarily any better than we are. I had one tell the owner the reason the tub was tripping was because the wiring to the tub was stranded not solid wire.

I fought for days with them-- I did not do the original install --- I finally got the boss out there and he found the problem.

RUWIREDRITE

04-08-2007, 11:39 AM

Most trips i found on hot tubs are from bad heating elements usually. Not all tubs respond the same way in which there wired. Mines been running for years without a hitch.I guess we much take each situation thats throw at us and deal with it accordingly. Oh well, i guess its time for me to go raid all the easter baskets my wife prepared for the grandchildren, heck they'll never know, lol
Happy Easter to all!