POCO get in the home wiring business

[Mike03a3]

Today I received from Dominion electric (my POCO) an invitation to pay them an additional $3.50 a month on my electric bill.

If I sign up for the "In-Home Electric Line Repair Program" they will now repair, replace or restore any wiring, switches, outlets, receptacles, boxes, fuses, breakers or connectors from the service entrance through receptacle or outlet boxes. This includes the panels, but excludes fixtures, appliances, appliance cords, extension cords or light bulbs.

Landscape wiring or any other wiring leaving the primary dwelling is also excluded.

I wonder how many people will sign up.

[iwire]

Some more info..

In-Home Electric Line Repair Program (http://retail.dom.com/products/warranty/electricline.jsp)

In-Home Electric Line Repair Program
Terms and Conditions (http://retail.dom.com/products/warranty/terms_cond/electricline_va.jsp)

It might be a good deal for an EC to be hooked up with the program. You get in the door to fix the problem under warranty for little profit but you can then sell them on other work.

[hardworkingstiff]

I wonder how many people will sign up.

I've wondered about this too. This first showed up in the phone bill back in the 70's (for me), and it was $.50/month service fee. It covered all of your premise wiring, but non of customer owned equipment.

I did some quick math, let's say the phone company has 10-million customers. Let's also assume that 20% of these customers sign up for this. That's 2-million customers timex $.50/month = $1,000,000/month in additional revenue. I bet they didn't spend $100,000/month on fixing any of these problems, a truly sweet deal for them. How many times has your phone wiring gone bad?

I'll bet that more than 20% signed up.

[goldstar]

It might be a good deal for an EC to be hooked up with the program. You get in the door to fix the problem under warranty for little profit but you can then sell them on other work.
Bob,

That would be OK if the POCO were restricted to use only outside licensed electrical contractors. We (as independent electrical contractors) had to fight this here in NJ because several POCO's wanted to go beyond providing the line voltage to residences to installations and services. I'm sure some cost accountant gave them this idea of charging a monthly fee for these services. They are merely looking for RMR (re-occurring monthly revenue) similar to what the alarm companies are doing with monitoring. The long and short of it is that it's an insurance policy that many HO's will probably never use and the POCO gets a monthly windfall that they didn't have before.

If you stop and think about this, guys like you and I have to work hard to obtain and maintain our licenses, get jobs, hire employees, etc. The POCO comes along, only requires one license for the entire company and then dumps 10,000 employees out there to compete with you. You can't compete at that level. I would fight this to the end.

Regards,

Phil

[mdshunk]

I don't like the idea that a public utility, who gains certain legal and business advantages afforded them by law, is becoming my competitor. Well, not mine, but somebody's. This is the same reason I don't buy Sylvania lamps, because they operate bucket trucks in my area doing parking lot light repairs. I don't like vendors as competitors, either.

[iwire]

Marc I am under the impression that the work is done by local electrical contractors paid for by the utility.

[iwire]

Bob,

That would be OK if the POCO were restricted to use only outside licensed electrical contractors.

I agree, if you read the links that appears to be what they are doing.

Here 'linemen' would not be allowed to do premise wiring work without having an electrical license.

[mdshunk]

Marc I am under the impression that the work is done by local electrical contractors paid for by the utility.Which isn't much different than Home Depot Installation Services, and that doesn't work out in the contractor's favor. I remain suspicious. I can see it as a good way for a small contractor to build a customer base, or for a large contractor to keep guys busy between bigger jobs without having to lay them off.

[iwire]

Which isn't much different than Home Depot Installation Services, and that doesn't work out in the contractor's favor.

Having never run a business I will certainly take your word for it.:smile:

I figured the profit on the warranty work would be dismal but I thought the opportunity to get in so many doors could be good.

[ramsy]

Would it be appropriate to add, that opportunity depends if the POCO is a member of a labor organization, where working agreements prohibit using unorganized subs or employees.

[elechank]

I'm not sure about what happens, but the intention is money. I think this is another way to squeeze the little guy, like home depot. So I better get on the house rewiring bid soon.

Hank

[iwire]

Would it be appropriate to add, that opportunity depends if the POCO is a member of a labor organization, where working agreements prohibit using unorganized subs or employees.

Not much point as we do not discuss union vs non-union issues here.

[RUWIREDRITE]

Marc ,
I been there with the home depot installation services, what a forest. They work out of a flat rate labor book in which anyone from the northern states cannot compete with.I tried working with them on a couple jobs , but kept coming up short trying to stick with there guidlines and cost. This might work for one man shops , but i passed on it.

[celtic]

Would it be appropriate to add, that opportunity depends if the POCO is a member of a labor organization, where working agreements prohibit using unorganized subs or employees.


Many states require person or entities operating as electrical "contractors" be licensed as such - which includes bonding, insurance, etc.
Who in the company(organized labor) will put their license on the line and for how much?
How much would they have to pay a non-employee to become an "employee"(organized labor) in order to use that license...and if that individual gets bent out of shape and yanks their license - then what?

Back in the 90's, when I worked for a railroad - they "polled" the men who were licensed EC's on who was willing to be the license holder for them. My first question: How much? Their reply....$150/year. Not a typo...no missing zeros...one-hundred-and-fifty-dollars. I laughed...but they did get someone for that pathetic price.
I don't know what the story is over there now....I'll long gone from that show.

[emahler]

Doing the math really quickly, with the assumption that a service call will cost them on avg $100. (that's what they will pay the contractor who does the work. Yes it's low, but I know they will squeeze the subs.)

And lets say 100,000 sign up. Thats ($3.5*100,000)*12=$4,200,000 /yr gross.

Since the avg residential customer needs service approx 1 time every 36 months, that means they should avg about 33,333 calls/yr

33,333*$100 = $3,333,300 /yr direct costs

or $866,700 gross profit.

After they pay all their overhead for administering the program, there is not much left.

If the avg service call costs them $150, they suddenly drop annual gross profit to (33,333 * $150) = $4,999,950

$4,200,000 - $4,999,950 = -$799,950 /yr

Connective tried it, and failed.

It's a difficult task. They will attempt it for a couple of years, screw up the market, then give it up. Or they will simply follow the lead of all the home warranty companies.

[Pierre C Belarge]

I agree that this needs to be nipped in the bud or it could lead to worse things. If it were to become successful, then it could spell big trouble in more ways than just loosing work. The price they could/would charge can really make a big difference in the future to make a reasonable profit.

This could be trouble with a Capital T

[ramsy]

Many states require person or entities operating as electrical "contractors" be licensed as such - which includes bonding, insurance, etc.

I believe the Captains of any Industry enjoy several compliance discounts.

I'm having visions of the POCO's "B" license registered to the corporation, with no individual attached. Just a central-support center that dispatches on-call techs with Nextel's for holding their hands.

Techs dispatched from a "B" license (General contractor) need not be bonded, insured, or certified, just an inside JW, or perhaps a part time, probationary, or temporary wouldn't require health or retirement benefits either. That might be an unfortunate trend for residential contractors.

[emahler]

Marc I am under the impression that the work is done by local electrical contractors paid for by the utility.

Iwire is correct. The program calls for them to sub it out. Won't be long till they realize that they are not making money. So they will either raise the price, try to sell the customer more features, or not be able to find contractors willing to work for minimum wages.

[brian john]

Dominion was doing this on a commercial level a few years back for electrical preventative maintenance on switchboards and distribution, when I saw some of the companies on the list I said why bother.....Most were residential semi commercial contractors with NO BACK GROUND in EPM...

[iwire]

Marc I am under the impression that the work is done by local electrical contractors paid for by the utility.

:grin:

Well....I do have a lot of posts.

But I also hold a full time job working with the tools every day. :cool:

[petersonra]

I agree that this needs to be nipped in the bud or it could lead to worse things. If it were to become successful, then it could spell big trouble in more ways than just loosing work. The price they could/would charge can really make a big difference in the future to make a reasonable profit.

This could be trouble with a Capital T

Worse for who?

Trouble for who?

If they can charge this and make a profit at it, and the consumer wants it, who is really hurt, other than the dinosaurs of the industry who want nothing to change?

In my area the gas, cable, and phone companies do similar things, and I do not hear the plumbers and low voltage installers whining that they cannot compete.

Big companies will always have an advantage in some things because they are big. The law of large numbers works in their benefit when there are large numbers involved. It works against them when the numbers are not large, just as large numbers tend to work against smaller businesses.

I think all this will do is tend to make some contractors do mostly service work. They should get pretty good at it pretty quick. Specialization will make them much better at it than a guy who only does it now and then. A big benefit to many smaller contractors is they will not have to spend as much on chasing business as they do now. It will just come to them in regular, dependable chunks.

[petersonra]

Back in the 90's, when I worked for a railroad - they "polled" the men who were licensed EC's on who was willing to be the license holder for them. My first question: How much? Their reply....$150/year. Not a typo...no missing zeros...one-hundred-and-fifty-dollars. I laughed...but they did get someone for that pathetic price.
I don't know what the story is over there now....I'll long gone from that show.

Why would a RR need an EC license in the first place?

[iwire]

Why would a RR need an EC license in the first place?

To install wiring that does not have anything to do with the rolling stock.

In other words the wiring for power and lighting in stations and offices is covered by the NEC.

[celtic]

Why would a RR need an EC license in the first place?
I wasn't at that level within the organization to know "why?" ...I can only "assume" it was because the Division of Consumer Affairs (maybe DOT?) "decided" they needed to.

[celtic]

In other words the wiring for power and lighting in stations and offices is covered by the NEC.

That could be it too :D

The first time I saw an inspector was when we built a few sub-stations.

[peter d]

:grin:
But I also hold a full time job working with the tools every day. :cool:

Yes, if by "tools" you mean a laptop and a cup of coffee. ;)

[barbeer]

http://www.progress-energy.com/custservice/flares/homewire/index.asp


Check out our area POCO- sounds like an insurance policy to me!? and there are limits.

[emahler]

Yes, if by "tools" you mean a laptop and a cup of coffee. ;)

i wasn't gonna say anything...but i was thinking something along those lines :D

[petersonra]

To install wiring that does not have anything to do with the rolling stock.

In other words the wiring for power and lighting in stations and offices is covered by the NEC.

How is this any different than the hundreds of thousands of plants in the us that do their own wiring by their own electricians?

[celtic]

How is this any different than the hundreds of thousands of plants in the us that do their own wiring by their own electricians?

Are they accessible to the general public?

[petersonra]

Are they accessible to the general public?

I ask again, what difference does it make?

The important thing is that the installation is safe.

Are you suggesting the electricians that work for a company other than an EC are unable to wire something up in a safe way?

[mdshunk]

How is this any different than the hundreds of thousands of plants in the us that do their own wiring by their own electricians?It's very different.

Those plants and factories don't normally hire local electrical contractors to do their day-to-day work. The people this power company is roping in do.

[celtic]

I
Are you suggesting the electricians that work for a company other than an EC are unable to wire something up in a safe way?

Not at all.

It may come down to a question of liability.

[iwire]

How is this any different than the hundreds of thousands of plants in the us that do their own wiring by their own electricians?

I think your misinformed about the numbers of places that do not have licensed electricians on staff.

Many plants do have licensed electricians on staff.

Here in my area of the country you can not wire any premise wiring systems without a license, that includes industrial or commercial facilities.

For the past few months I have been assigned to a large plant, counting my self and the other two in house electricians that makes 3 of us.

I am not saying at all a license makes us any better at our job, what I am saying is that the law requires that these places either have an licensed electrician on staff on sub out the wiring.

This does not include the wiring in the machines but it does include the wiring to the equipment, the lighting, the adding of panels etc.

I know you disagree with the licensing and inspection process but that does not change the fact many areas have it and enforce it.

For better or worse I can not imagine a railroad in NJ would be not be forced into hiring some licensed electricians, either by the Govt. or perhaps some labor organization who's 'offer' can not be refused...

[jbfan74]

In GA. you do not have to have a license to do any wireing inside a plant.
The only thing a license in GA. allows is the ability to contract to do electrical work.
we are only required to have 1 lincense for as many employees as you can manage.

[JohnJ0906]

Some jurisdictions here have "Master limited" licences, the holder is allowed to preform electric work in ONE plant, factory,etc. In that facility, he would be the same as any othe master, but he would be unable to pull a permit for anything off-site.

[S Carpenter]

In Northwest Indiana its called inside electric line service and its a retail div. of the POCO - here, they use subcontractors and we make apretty good buck doing it for them