trade or code?

[QES]

which is more important? to know the codes or know the trade? can't have both!

[Dennis Alwon]

I thought knowing the code was part of knowing the trade.

[iwire]

can't have both!

I will disagree with that.

I know both the code and the trade for the type of work I am involved in.

There are also areas of the code and the trade that I do not know.

[QES]

it rephase that, to know the trade meaning know to do electrical skills not to code stardard.

[jim dungar]

it rephase that, to know the trade meaning know to do electrical skills not to code stardard.

If your skills are not up to all applicable code standards (i.e. NEC and NFPA 70E) then what good are they?

[wbalsam1]

which is more important? to know the codes or know the trade? can't have both!

Geez, I hope the Babylonians don't start making a distinction between Hammurabi's Code and their professions....:D But then again, how many Babylonian electrical contractors could be left...?:wink:

Seriously, you gotta be kiddin'. To me, that's a dangerous presumption. The one that implies a tradesman can only have success with one at the expense of the other...:-?

[S'mise]

I agree that they are the same thing. It's hard to know everything so I would pick "Trade" if I had to choose. If you do the same thing everyday, chances are you know how to do it better than anybody. :wink:

[Terrynistler]

We all have choices to make on our competence to do new or different work that is out of our comfort zone.

It is our responsibility to either educate (update) ourselves or not to accept the job.

I think it is simple if you are going to accept a job outside of your comfort/knowledge level then either educate yourself or turn down the work.

[iwire]

I hope the Babylonians don't start making a distinction between Hammurabi's Code and their professions....:D


Hammurabi's Code (http://www.wsu.edu/~dee/MESO/CODE.HTM) 229
If a builder build a house for some one, and does not construct it properly, and the house which he built fall in and kill its owner, then that builder shall be put to death.

[mdshunk]

I know the code for the things I do, but the nice thing for all of us is that it's written in a book, so we can look it up if I have to. I can't pull trade skills out of a book. You absolutely need some of both, but you can look up code, and you need to develop skill.

[bkludecke]

One of the most skilled tradesman that I know has worked for me for over twenty years and was a licensed EC on his own before that. I doubt that he has looked at a code book more than a half dozen times since he's been with me. He is good at motor controls and almost all facets of residential rewire work. He can bend pipe (by eye) and he is clean-cut and reliable. That said, it is my job to make sure the work he does is code compliant. At his age he is not about to change so as long as he makes me $$ he stays.

[QES]

I like Marc's answer:roll:

[satcom]

At his age he is not about to change so as long as he makes me $$ he stays.

IMO if he is not up on code, he may not be as skilled as you think, sounds like an excuse to me.

At my age, I am learning every day, age has nothing to do with staying current, with code changes, how can anyone claim to be a good tradesman, when they fail to stay current.

[ryan_618]

IMO if he is not up on code, he may not be as skilled as you think, sounds like an excuse to me.

At my age, I am learning every day, age has nothing to do with staying current, with code changes, how can anyone claim to be a good tradesman, when they fail to stay current.

Good post.

[Pierre C Belarge]

One of the most skilled tradesman that I know has worked for me for over twenty years and was a licensed EC on his own before that. I doubt that he has looked at a code book more than a half dozen times since he's been with me. He is good at motor controls and almost all facets of residential rewire work. He can bend pipe (by eye) and he is clean-cut and reliable. That said, it is my job to make sure the work he does is code compliant. At his age he is not about to change so as long as he makes me $$ he stays.




I noticed how you mention he is a skilled tradesman, not electrician...maybe a Freudian slip.

If someone is working for you and you constantly check his work, than I can see keeping them at his age as long as he has the trade skills.

[sandsnow]

If you do electrical work or any skilled trade and don't make the effort to know the codes and regulations of the work you install, then you are just a laborer.

[satcom]

If you do electrical work or any skilled trade and don't make the effort to know the codes and regulations of the work you install, then you are just a laborer.


I think the words, we are looking for is a complete skill set, not just one segment of the skill required.

This is one of the reasons, our state has us taking 35 hours of CEU's and that is on top of the code knowladge we already have, or should have.

[cadpoint]

I, myself, thought that it was a vocational choice on my part.
The responsibility that I have learned to respect, get to apply is
my own satisfaction...:rolleyes:

[bkludecke]

I learned long ago that there are all types of workers. My job as an employer is to match the skills (worker) and the job/customer. I am responsible for everything my people do wether it is driving the truck or wiring a house or whatever. Yes this man is deficient in code knowledge but he can really put things together and the quality of his work is excellent. He has a lot of practicle and mechanical knowledge that I wouldn't trade for a busfull of booksmart men.

[electricmanscott]

I believe it's not what you know its who you know....

http://www.metimes.com/images/photos/full/20070604-020326-1086.jpg

[hardworkingstiff]

can't have both!

:-? Says who? :-?

[QES]

in some country their some "great" electrical work but those work does not follow any standard or codes.

[bikeindy]

in some country their some "great" electrical work but those work does not follow any standard or codes.

If you do "great" Electrical work you have a standard, while it may be self imposed it is still a standard. It is the government that has set standards and codes on us to protect people from hacks. Yet people still insist on hiring hacks to save a dollar. I could design and build an electrical system for a home that wasn't code compliant but was a better install and system than some may put in that was code compliant. When I say not code compliant I could simply leave out a receptacle on a 6' section of wall space where one would never really be needed. Look you can have both it is important to know both and as others have said not all guys out there installing electrical systems are electricians some are simply hole drillers and wire pullers.

[wbalsam1]

which is more important? to know the codes or know the trade? can't have both!

At 90.1, the purpose of the code is stated. Namely, to safeguard persons and property from hazards that might arise from the use of electricity.
To "know"a trade suggests to me that one would "know" the hazards involved, such as overloaded wiring, or inadequate ground-fault current paths, etc., which would fail to provide against shock, etc. "Knowing" your trade in not only safety from fault currents, but protection from overcurrent, thermal effects and overvoltage as explained in the FPN of 90.1(D) is all part of the relationship between work ethics and standards.

When you say "Can't have both", I say "Must have both". :)

[khixxx]

My uncle wanted me to put up a light in the yard for him (flood light). He knows how to put black to black white to white. bare to nothing.... I refused to do it because he piece milled this thing together. meaning Yes it would work but not to code. I told him to call someone in the yellow pages. He got mad at me and told me "Not everyone can pay that kind of money". I wonder if he put it up yet.

[dezwitinc]

I have always been a proponent of education and training.
That being said, I don't know how anyone can call themselves an "electrician" if they don't have a thorough working knowledge of the NEC.
We have alot of very good "mechanics" down here who can run pipe, pull wire, install equipment, etc. but don't ask them to size a conduit or feeder.
There is a place for everyone on a crew but don't give yourself a title unless it is deserved.
Put in your time to learn the foundation of our trade and you will be rewarded.

[tadavidson]

[QUOTE=iwireHammurabi's Code[/QUOTE]

46 “So why do you keep calling me ‘Lord, Lord!’ when you don’t do what I say? 47 I will show you what it’s like when someone comes to me, listens to my teaching, and then follows it. 48 It is like a person building a house who digs deep and lays the foundation on solid rock. When the floodwaters rise and break against that house, it stands firm because it is well built. 49 But anyone who hears and doesn’t obey is like a person who builds a house without a foundation. When the floods sweep down against that house, it will collapse into a heap of ruins.”

Better reading.

[peter d]

I work with both skilled electricians and installers. Installers require supervision and only do what they're told and don't know the code. They know enough "trade" to do their jobs. Skilled electricians know the code and know the trade to do their jobs without supervision or outside guidance.

So to answer your question: Both are essential!

[mdshunk]

So to answer your question: Both are essential!Right! From a business standpoint, there's no merit in wasting a good "electrician" on installing 300 lay-in fixtures, when that's a task perfectly suited to an "installer" (I call them "electrical laborers"). Put the good electricians on piping up the mechanical equipment and the other odd tasks where the mind for code is also needed.

[tadavidson]

If you do "great" Electrical work you have a standard, while it may be self imposed it is still a standard.
New International Version (NIV)

Passage Colossians 3:23:
23Whatever you do, work at it with all your heart, as working for the Lord, not for men,

[jaylectricity]

My old boss hardly ever looked in a code book but we always seemed to get it right. Occasionally an inspector would tell him to correct something. When I started going to school I had my own code book that I would take to work.
He started relying on me to look up things in question. On one hand he probably should have kept himself up to date. On the other hand having me looking up codes helped me learn them and helped "us" do the work right.
He was the kind of guy that introduced me to his customers as, "This is Jay, he works with me." Never reduced me to his helper or apprentice.

That is my long way of saying that you need the skills set to accomplish anything, but what is it worth if you don't make it code compliant?

Response to electricmanscott! (http://homepage.ntlworld.com/hands74/0608pariscarcryinffo1.jpg)

[JohnConnolly]

After 30 some years I ONLY know the trade. Actually I only know SOME of the trade.

I understand the basics of the code but honestly, when I try to look something up and try to understand the verbage....I usually end up confused.


My most recent question was regarding derating conductors when you had a bunch of them in a single conduit. I got 3 different answers online, another from the engineer (glad I didn't listen to HIM) and the final answer from the inspector. He pointed of the code section to me but I thought it was not at ALL clear, and he didn't consider neutrals as current carrying conductors.

[satcom]

After 30 some years I ONLY know the trade. Actually I only know SOME of the trade.

I understand the basics of the code but honestly, when I try to look something up and try to understand the verbage....I usually end up confused.


My most recent question was regarding derating conductors when you had a bunch of them in a single conduit. I got 3 different answers online, another from the engineer (glad I didn't listen to HIM) and the final answer from the inspector. He pointed of the code section to me but I thought it was not at ALL clear, and he didn't consider neutrals as current carrying conductors.

John, your not alone with having problems understanding the intent, years ago, many just gave up and lost intrest in trying to understand the intent, since then code instruction is easily accessed thru community vocational school offerings and private instruction, offering CEU classes, if derating is one of your intrests, you can find a class covering it, and have a chance to see that your not alone in your quest for understanding the intent.

Sign up for a course, and meet everyone else that has problems understanding derating. if nothing else, it a chance to meet others in your craft.

[LarryFine]

. . . he didn't consider neutrals as current carrying conductors.That actually applies to neutrals that carry only unbalanced current in MWBC's.

[Greg Swartz]

it rephase that, to know the trade meaning know to do electrical skills not to code stardard.

Back in the days I spent with my Uncle, Sam (maybe you know him.)
I learned a lot about electricity. More than most electricians would ever know. I mean a lot.
We learned how to install wiring too, but I never even knew there was a NEC until 2000.
Now, I've been doing this since 1991 (I know, I'm a pup to a lot of you out there), that makes 9 years of doing a lot of electrical work without knowing what the heck a code was, let alone following it.

In all that time, I misjudged my ampacity once. Unfortunately for me, I was in charge, and it was a BIG misjudge. But, statistics are on my side, because I only had 1 fault in 9 years. Yet, I knew nothing about code.

So, my answer is, to know your trade is more important.

Really, I would like both, but if I had to choose one over the other, I would choose: know your trade.

Being in your position, you can probably train the person on the code, because they would not be in a leadership position, that means everything they do would be monitored. Therefore, training possibilities are nearly endless.

Good question.

[hardworkingstiff]

Being able to know your trade without knowing your code seems to be incongruous (IMO).

[hillbilly]

Being able to know your trade without knowing your code seems to be incongruous (IMO).

I agree.

I once met a "electrician" who stated that he had never owned a code book.
He "did it the way he was taught".
I've often wondered how he kept up to date on code changes.

As the government imposes more and more rules and regulations on the construction industry, guys like him will become extinct unless their "teaching" steadily progresses with the times.

For most of us (me anyway) that teaching is self imposed, and it's up to me to keep up, or fall behind.

Since the postman still keeps coming by my house everyday and bringing bills, I've got no choice.

Luckily, I love what I do and am always ready to learn.

The "way I was taught" will either get on the train before it leaves the station, or be left behind.

"All aboard!".

steve

[bikeindy]

Back in the days I spent with my Uncle, Sam (maybe you know him.)
I learned a lot about electricity. More than most electricians would ever know. I mean a lot.
We learned how to install wiring too, but I never even knew there was a NEC until 2000.
Now, I've been doing this since 1991 (I know, I'm a pup to a lot of you out there), that makes 9 years of doing a lot of electrical work without knowing what the heck a code was, let alone following it.

In all that time, I misjudged my ampacity once. Unfortunately for me, I was in charge, and it was a BIG misjudge. But, statistics are on my side, because I only had 1 fault in 9 years. Yet, I knew nothing about code.



I am going to guess you had some form of tech data to install by, My uncle sam had lots for me to read.

[jim dungar]

Now, I've been doing this since 1991 (I know, I'm a pup to a lot of you out there), that makes 9 years of doing a lot of electrical work without knowing what the heck a code was, let alone following it.

While you may not have known the NEC, I'll bet that your Uncle Sam had other written regulations (codes) that you did have to know by heart.

[Greg Swartz]

I am going to guess you had some form of tech data to install by, My uncle sam had lots for me to read.

C'mon, we're Marines... we don't know how to read!
(and if you asked us for a set of Kliens, we would of looked at you with a deer in the headlights sorta look!)

[Greg Swartz]

While you may not have known the NEC, I'll bet that your Uncle Sam had other written regulations (codes) that you did have to know by heart.

To be totally honest, I just don't know.

I knew how to rip a generator apart, the entire diesel engine, the entire electrical theor on how the stator went to the engine and produced an electric field through a magnetic field.

I could have told you how to make the generator output more voltage, at a cost of amperage, (we even designed a Technical Manual for one...)

I found out the ampacity of most wires by searching for it, but I really don't know what manuals told me...
how to wire properly
what wires went where
how to put things in parallel
grounding
etc...

you know, the important stuff.

Although I remember taking a correspondence course back in 1992 about interior wiring... the only thing I remember is that recepts go 18" to center.

Go figure... (and I was in charge a lot too... uuuggghhh!)

[wireman]

While there is no doubt electricians who are running service trucks or on small projects should know the code rules, what about on a big job that has spec's and prints? How often have you heard electricians say "I don't need to know the code. It should be on the print."

If the spec's and prints say to put something in that is against code, is it the electrical contractor's (or electrician) job to catch it? The prints normally have a stamp on them etc.

[Brady Electric]

As usual Marc and Dennis hit it on the head. Of course they are the same thing, what good is knowing one without the other? Semper Fi. Buddy