Island receptacles

[electricguy61]

I came up with a solution to a problem, and was wondering if anyone could site a code restriction(s) to it.

The customer has a kitchen island, and did not want receptacles mounted or cut into the under-counter area. My thought was to install the receptacle just inside the door of the cabinet. It is within 6" of the counter-top, and is GFCI protected, but is hidden from view until needed, then the user simply opens the cabinet door.

I'd appreciate any thoughts you may have on this idea.

Thanks

[charlie b]

I think the exception to 210.52(C)(5) would allow it. I also think it is a bad design. Any cord plugged into that receptacle is at risk of damage, if someone tries to close the cabinet door.

[cowboyjwc]

I agree with Charlie.

We have to remeber that even if the customer is always right, they can't always have what they want.

[electricguy61]

I agree with Charlie.

We have to remeber that even if the customer is always right, they can't always have what they want.

Does this mean you would allow it (as an inspector)?

[Dennis Alwon]

I disagree. I find this installation to not be code compliant. If the receptacle is in an appliance garage it is okay but does not qualify as the required counter receptacle. (art. 210.52(C)(5).. IMO,the door nixes this installation as code compliant for the required receptacle.

[Greg1707]

400.8 prohibits flexible cords running through doorways or were subject to damage.

[Jomaul]

I disagree. I find this installation to not be code compliant. If the receptacle is in an appliance garage it is okay but does not qualify as the required counter receptacle. (art. 210.52(C)(5).. IMO,the door nixes this installation as code compliant for the required receptacle.
I agree with dennis 210.52 (C) (5) Won't allow it.

[electricguy61]

400.8 prohibits flexible cords running through doorways or were subject to damage.

I don't think this one applies. I'm not installing any cords.

[electricguy61]

I disagree. I find this installation to not be code compliant. If the receptacle is in an appliance garage it is okay but does not qualify as the required counter receptacle. (art. 210.52(C)(5).. IMO,the door nixes this installation as code compliant for the required receptacle.

Please explain how this code section nixes opening a cabinet door to access the receptacle. I don't see it.

Not arguing, asking for clarification.

Thanks

[Pierre C Belarge]

The receptacle located within the cabinet (with the door) is not permitted.

210.52 dwelling Unit Receptacle Outlets

This section provides requirements for 125-volt, 15- and - 20 ampere receptacle outlets. Receptacle outlets required by this section shall be in addition to any receptacle that is part of a luminaire or appliance, located within cabinets or cupboards, or located more than 5 1/2 feet above the floor.

[charlie b]

I had a brilliant reply, but I had to withdraw it. Pierre just trumped teh brilliance of my brilliant reply. I yield. Thought I will offer a reminder that I did think it was a bad design. :rolleyes:

[Dennis Alwon]

Pierre's article reference is a good one to remember when laying out receptacles in living rooms and dens. Often there are cabinets with doors on them and the recep. that you put in there will not suffice for code required receptacles. I have seen this very often and I believe it is another of those codes that do not get enforced as it should.

I hate it when I come back to trim and the entire wall has cabinets (not originally on the plan but later added) with doors and I have to retro fit outlets in the kick space.

[IllinoisContractor]

I hate it when I come back to trim and the entire wall has cabinets (not originally on the plan but later added) with doors and I have to retro fit outlets in the kick space.

Do cabinets installed on the walls count as uninterrupted wall space. If not, then you are not required by code to install the receptacles in the kick space. :smile:

[Pierre C Belarge]

Do cabinets installed on the walls count as uninterrupted wall space. If not, then you are not required by code to install the receptacles in the kick space. :smile:


Wall space is wall space. Cabinets are cabinets. Think of a pantry or think of the lower cabinets in a kitchen.
What I am saying is cabinets are not considered wall space and would not require receptacle placement as per 210.52(A)(2).

[stickboy1375]

Wall space is wall space. Cabinets are cabinets. Think of a pantry or think of the lower cabinets in a kitchen.
What I am saying is cabinets are not considered wall space and would not require receptacle placement as per 210.52(A)(2).

The inspectors around here think differently, every library I ever wired had to have receptacles installed in the baseboard, And I would love a definition of wall space please... also, if I built a wall out of cabinets you would not require receptacles to be installed?

[IllinoisContractor]

The inspectors around here think differently, every library I ever wired had to have receptacles installed in the baseboard

If I were to submit a proposal that included a room that had floor to ceiling cabinets, without a counter top anywhere in between, I would not include receptacles to be installed in the kick plate. I would include receptacles within 6 feet of the cabinets but not in the cabinet themselves. If I had an inspector come in at the final and tell me that I needed to cut in receptacles in the kick plates, I would have to seriously debate the issue with him. I'm not saying that I would win the debate, but I would definitely debate it with him because he would be wrong. I have a hard time when an inspector causes me to incur additional cost just because he feels that he can. It doesn't matter if he can show me the code requirements, he just says to do it because that's the way he wants it.:mad:

[cowboyjwc]

Charlie, I agreed with you without doing my own research and look what happened. I'm deeply hurt.

My point about the customer can't always have what they want, was meant as, an outlet is required there and you're going to have one like it or not and as an inspector I may or may not have allowed it. Somedays it just depends on my mood. : )

[electricguy61]

The receptacle located within the cabinet (with the door) is not permitted.

210.52 dwelling Unit Receptacle Outlets

This section provides requirements for 125-volt, 15- and - 20 ampere receptacle outlets. Receptacle outlets required by this section shall be in addition to any receptacle that is part of a luminaire or appliance, located within cabinets or cupboards, or located more than 5 1/2 feet above the floor.

That would seem to cover it, though it does not dis-allow it.

Thanks

[stickboy1375]

If I were to submit a proposal that included a room that had floor to ceiling cabinets, without a counter top anywhere in between, I would not include receptacles to be installed in the kick plate. I would include receptacles within 6 feet of the cabinets but not in the cabinet themselves. If I had an inspector come in at the final and tell me that I needed to cut in receptacles in the kick plates, I would have to seriously debate the issue with him. I'm not saying that I would win the debate, but I would definitely debate it with him because he would be wrong. I have a hard time when an inspector causes me to incur additional cost just because he feels that he can. It doesn't matter if he can show me the code requirements, he just says to do it because that's the way he wants it.:mad:


I should have said, he required the receptacles, I just happened to install them in the toe kick, but really, how can you call a fastened piece of cabinetry not wall space?

[George Stolz]

That would seem to cover it, though it does not dis-allow it.

Thanks
It doesn't forbid a receptacle from being inside a cabinet - but it does disallow it from being counted as the required receptacle, IMO.

Now the question becomes, what if I install in-use covers on my island...?

;)

[IllinoisContractor]

how can you call a fastened piece of cabinetry not wall space?

A wall space is a wall. Cabinets are cabinets.

The whole purpose of the code requirements for dwelling unit receptacle outlets (210-52) is to minimize the use of cords across doorways, fireplaces and simular openings. A simular opening would be a cabinet with a door. If you have a wall of cabinets with doors, what in the world would you need an outlet for? The cabinets have doors that swing out. Are you going to put a table with a light on it in front of a cabinet with a door? That should be interesting to see what happens when you open the cabinet door.

I can understand putting an outlet on a counter within the cabinets. Even more so if you put a 2 foot wall between the cabinets (2 foot wall space requirement) where you could possibly put a table and lamp. Otherwise, what in the world are you gong to plug into an outlet in the middle of 12 feet of cabinets with swinging doors? I'm sorry but I just don't get it.:smile:

[pmiller]

Sometimes we put plugmold just under the counter if we don't have room for a remodel box. I don't know if this works in this application

[Dennis Alwon]

A wall space is a wall. Cabinets are cabinets.
Otherwise, what in the world are you gong to plug into an outlet in the middle of 12 feet of cabinets with swinging doors? I'm sorry but I just don't get it.:smile:


How about a vacuum or a lamp. So if I have a den with cabinets on every wall and lets say bookshelves above the cabinets so that every wall in the room is covered with these cabinets, then are you saying that no receptacles are required in this room?????


I beg to differ. The simple statement in art. 210.52 that states that outlets in the cabinet must be in addition to the required outlets tells us that the outlets are required when cabinets exist on the wall.

Don't you think that wall cabinets constitute a fixed room divider as in art. 210.52 (A)(2)(3) I realize that an example is a free standing bar type counter but I believe I cabinets on a wall would also fit this description.

[Dennis Alwon]

Sometimes we put plugmold just under the counter if we don't have room for a remodel box. I don't know if this works in this application


Plugmold should be just fine if it is an island or peninsula (art. 210.52(C)(5)(2). Plugmold is okay on a counter below the upper cabinet but not below the countertop unless it is an island or peninsula.

[stickboy1375]

The cabinets have doors that swing out. Are you going to put a table with a light on it in front of a cabinet with a door? That should be interesting to see what happens when you open the cabinet door.



A cabinet fastened to a wall is wall space, I don't believe for a minute that the NEC just had sheetrock in mind...:wink:

[IllinoisContractor]

The simple statement in art. 210.52 that states that outlets in the cabinet must be in addition to the required outlets

Exactly right. The outlets in the cabinets must be in addition to the required outlets because the cabinets are not recognized as wall space. It they were then the outlets in the cabinets would count for the wall space requirements.:D

[IllinoisContractor]

How about a vacuum or a lamp.
Are you really going have a lamp in front of cabinets with swinging doors? Doesn't that present a safety issue. Do you think that maybe the code requirement is thinking about this very safety issue? That maybe this is why they do not require a receptacle in this situation?

[Dennis Alwon]

Exactly right. The outlets in the cabinets must be in addition to the required outlets because the cabinets are not recognized as wall space. It they were then the outlets in the cabinets would count for the wall space requirements.:D

No, how are you interpreting that to mean what you are saying.
Read it careful--
This section provides requirements for 125 volt, 15 and 20 amperer receptacle outlets. Receptacle outlets required by this section shall be in addition to any receptacle that is part of a luminaire or appliance located within cabinets or cupboards, OR located 51/2' above the floor.

It simple means if an outlet is within a cabinet or 51/2' above the floor than you must add another receptacle to satisfy 210.52