View Full Version : Piece Work Poll
iwire
08-10-2007, 06:20 AM
Just a quick pole, I think I know the answer but maybe I am way off base. :smile:
JohnJ0906
08-10-2007, 06:31 AM
I think that, under certain circumstances, piece work can be good for the employer, and employee.
However, I think under most circumstances it won't work.
emahler
08-10-2007, 08:20 AM
bob,
i didn't vote, because I'm not sure how I really feel about piecework in reality.
I think of piecework a little like Communism...
In theory it's great, but in practice, maybe not so great.
I think that it's ruined by the people who institute it...
I just don't think it's inherently bad. I think it's been distorted by those who use it along the way.
bikeindy
08-10-2007, 08:31 AM
It sounds good to me for some of the work we do. I would love to tell a guy I will pay you X for this service install and I think in most cases he will make more money than his hourly wage. The benefit to me could be that he would finish sooner and I could get him off to a small service call in the afternoon I had a guy who I told I would pay him his 8 hours day wage to get service changes done even if it only took him 5 or 6 hours to do it because he was milking the jobs and I had more work to be done. He still just milked it and took 8 hours to do eventually I fired him for milking me for hours not worked. He could have easily been making 10 or 12 hours worth of pay for 8 hours of work. He was very capable of doing what I hoped for, He wanted a raise but did nothing to warren t it. I don't do track homes so I don't think a regular piece work rate would work for me at all.
peter d
08-10-2007, 10:19 AM
Piece work could be used for things like roughing and trimming tract homes where there is little or no variation in the tasks involved and there is a large quantity of material to be installed.
iwire
08-10-2007, 11:19 AM
bob,
i didn't vote, because I'm not sure how I really feel about piecework in reality.
I think of piecework a little like Communism...
In theory it's great, but in practice, maybe not so great.
I think that it's ruined by the people who institute it...
I just don't think it's inherently bad. I think it's been distorted by those who use it along the way.
Wow, hell has not just frozen over, it now has a deep layer of permafrost. :D
I agree with most of what you posted above.
Thank you for your candor. 8-)
iwire
08-10-2007, 11:22 AM
Piece work could be used for things like roughing and trimming tract homes where there is little or no variation in the tasks involved and there is a large quantity of material to be installed.
Of course it could be used.
But to me the question is should it be used?
How will effect moral?
Will the employee look at the job as 'just a job' or will they feel it could be a career?
Bob,
for me it's more about quality, not morale.
emahler
08-10-2007, 07:30 PM
Wow, hell has not just frozen over, it now has a deep layer of permafrost. :D
I agree with most of what you posted above.
Thank you for your candor. 8-)
better make a note on your calender:D
andinator
08-10-2007, 07:32 PM
Piece work could be used for things like roughing and trimming tract homes where there is little or no variation in the tasks involved and there is a large quantity of material to be installed.
This is the most succinct and accurate post in this whole great debate. Tract homes can be 1100 sq. ft. and trashy or 4000 sq. ft. and half a million dollars. The key is universal plans. Say 10 to 12 home plans for a thousand home development. THATS how piecing houses works for the employer and employee
mkgrady
08-10-2007, 07:51 PM
I think it is considered by employers that don't have what they want. They want good employees that do high quality work in an effecient manner while making the customer feel good about the end result. When employers institute piece work they get the exact opposite of what they desire. Seems to me they get employees that are in a bib hurry, maybe making mistakes, or working in an unsafe manner, and make the customer feel like production is more important than quality.
JohnJ0906
08-10-2007, 07:58 PM
The key is universal plans. Say 10 to 12 home plans for a thousand home development. THATS how piecing houses works for the employer and employee
True, but only to a point.
Will the house be IN THE SAME CONDITION each time? Other trades? Clean or cluttered? Makes a big difference if I'm working around others or not, or if I have to clean up before I start.
Damn you have not even got the job and you are already whinning...
I would take a per sq-ft piece work deal any day of the week provided I liked the numbers.
Oh wait that is exactly what I am doing now...in fact that is what all contractors do.
emahler
08-10-2007, 08:16 PM
Damn you have not even got the job and you are already whinning...
I would take a per sq-ft piece work deal any day of the week provided I liked the numbers.
Oh wait that is exactly what I am doing now...in fact that is what all contractors do.
hey...i think i heard that before:D
exactly right ITO
celtic
08-10-2007, 09:02 PM
I would take a per sq-ft piece work deal any day of the week provided I liked the numbers.
..and why wouldn't you like the numbers ~ you were the one responsible for coming up with the numbers :grin:
JohnJ0906
08-10-2007, 09:09 PM
Damn you have not even got the job and you are already whinning...
I would take a per sq-ft piece work deal any day of the week provided I liked the numbers.
Oh wait that is exactly what I am doing now...in fact that is what all contractors do.
Who's whining? :D
I'm also not an EC, so our point of view will be different, won't it?
I'm looking at it from the point of view of an employee.
..and why wouldn't you like the numbers ~ you were the one responsible for coming up with the numbers :grin:
Two words: Contract Negotiations
Who's whining? :D
I'm also not an EC, so our point of view will be different, won't it?
I'm looking at it from the point of view of an employee.
Answer:
...
Will the house be IN THE SAME CONDITION each time? Other trades? Clean or cluttered? Makes a big difference if I'm working around others or not, or if I have to clean up before I start.
It was a light hearted jest don't take it personally.
Also keep in mind the status of employee and contractor becomes blurry once you take a piece work deal, which was the point I was trying to make.
JohnJ0906
08-10-2007, 09:23 PM
True. Also, I suppose that is something that would be taken into account during estimating a job, I suppose.
sheldon_ace
08-10-2007, 09:30 PM
My company pays extremely well. We make the same prevailing wage, both in the check, and fringe on public and private jobs. We bust a$$. Most days I feel my employer holds our wage over our heads. They claim quality is best, but sometimes it is speed that counts. it gets frustrating. It always makes you second guess
emahler
08-10-2007, 09:36 PM
My company pays extremely well. We make the same prevailing wage, both in the check, and fringe on public and private jobs. We bust a$$. Most days I feel my employer holds our wage over our heads. They claim quality is best, but sometimes it is speed that counts. it gets frustrating. It always makes you second guess
do the math...if they are competing against companies that pay 1/2 the rate, they can't pay you 2x as much without getting more productivity...
Sometimes technical ability, and bond-ability can overcome that kind of pay disparity.
Seeing from a contracting, and employee veiw I think both are bad - unless the employee gets to name his price up-front - but at that point he isn't an employee anymore either. Is he?
FYI - I learned this long ago - and I think it ties in here slightly. It is illegal in California for any contruction labor to be paid in whole or part by commission. Reason from what I can understand is that consumer protection advocates don't want you cheesing the work for your personal gain. Is not "peice work" another form of back door, and lower level commission pay structure?
iwire
08-11-2007, 07:45 AM
do the math...if they are competing against companies that pay 1/2 the rate, they can't pay you 2x as much without getting more productivity...
Wow again we agree, of course it is hard to disagree about an issue that is essentially a fact. :smile:
emahler
08-11-2007, 09:40 AM
bob, we actually agree more than you think...you just have one viewpoint to look at things from, I have 2. but most of the time, I don't necessarily agree with my viewpoint for my own setup. But rather take the contradictory viewpoint to prove a point and give the unpopular side a fair shake. There is a definite mob mentality that occurs on these boards...I just have always disliked following the crown...call me a contrarian
emahler
08-11-2007, 09:49 AM
Sometimes technical ability, and bond-ability can overcome that kind of pay disparity.
this is true, but usually not the case with PLOE....From 1985-1991 we were a union shop. We had a customer that owned 12 mil sq feet of warehouse/office space in NJ. We were doing all the rehabs for them. Our journeymen were costing $43/hr. Times were good.
In 1991 they had a falling out with the GC that got us into the gig. Someone in the owners organization started to slip his buddy in. His buddy was a GC and an EC.
His billable rate for electrical was $27/hr.....Billable. He was bringing in guys that couldn't spell electrical and paying them $12/hr....
That is sometimes what you deal with in the private sector.
sheldon_ace
08-11-2007, 11:30 AM
do the math...if they are competing against companies that pay 1/2 the rate, they can't pay you 2x as much without getting more productivity...
They compete against mostly union shops, so the labor rate isn't the issue. So I have done the math thank you very much. We are pushed to our breaking point, verbally assaulted, and severely repremanded for minor mistakes. I think this is a recipe for disaster. I take it everyday because I have a family who depends on me. I see quality of work suffer so production can prevail. Don't judge me until you know the situation. It isn't always the employee who is wrong, sometimes honest people just need to vent
Gerry
emahler
08-11-2007, 11:42 AM
no judgement meant, sorry it came out that way. i actually undersyour comments and agree. my point was that in this day and age, on most bid jobs, labor is the largest cost.....want to lower prices to win jobs? lower labor costs.
again, sorry to come off that way.
LawnGuyLandSparky
08-11-2007, 04:28 PM
do the math...if they are competing against companies that pay 1/2 the rate, they can't pay you 2x as much without getting more productivity...
More productivity than what?
If they are competing against companies that pay 1/2 the rate, they can't pay 2x as much and then reasonably expect that their bottom line is going to be anywhere near as good as the competition unless each and every worker produces exactly 100% more than the competition, which is, realistically, a pipe dream.
On the other hand - the cream rises to the top, and a company paying the prevailing rate on both public works jobs AND private jobs will tend to attract the best employees. For certian, an employer like that will never have to deal with issues like 4th year helpers who take 8 hours to prefab 10 quads.
andinator
08-11-2007, 06:57 PM
True, but only to a point.
Will the house be IN THE SAME CONDITION each time? Other trades? Clean or cluttered? Makes a big difference if I'm working around others or not, or if I have to clean up before I start.
For piecing houses to work well the builder has to know the deal. When I did it 90% of our business was with Ryland homes. These "tract" homes were between 2500 and 3800 sq.ft. and rand (three years ago) btween $280,00 and $400,000. We were always scheduled correctly after plumbing and HVAC but before security on the rough(two days by yourself) and after the primer coat but before finish paint on the trim (1 day by yourself). When I say by yourself I mean no other contractors and in perhaps 1 in 20 houses the Ryland super would poke his head in to say hey. This situation is how piece work can work for employers and employees and really no other. It was bliss.
emahler
08-11-2007, 06:58 PM
more productivity than the guy getting paid 1/2 as much....
productivity is not just moving faster...it's also working smarter...
running the wire so that you don't need to climb up and down a ladder...
getting all the parts in 1 trip to the truck, instead of 3 trips because you forgot a coupling, and a locknut....
planning the job so that you run all your conduits/cables that are going the same way at the same time....instead of making the run 3 seperate times with 3 seperate conduits.....
generally, being more efficient and productive by using your knowledge and experience.
so yes, if theoretically, the cream rose to the top, you would expect that cream to be more efficient then the curd over at the shop paying 1/2 as much...
sheldon_ace
08-12-2007, 01:04 PM
more productivity than the guy getting paid 1/2 as much....
productivity is not just moving faster...it's also working smarter...
running the wire so that you don't need to climb up and down a ladder...
getting all the parts in 1 trip to the truck, instead of 3 trips because you forgot a coupling, and a locknut....
planning the job so that you run all your conduits/cables that are going the same way at the same time....instead of making the run 3 seperate times with 3 seperate conduits.....
generally, being more efficient and productive by using your knowledge and
experience.
so yes, if theoretically, the cream rose to the top, you would expect that cream to be more efficient then the curd over at the shop paying 1/2 as much...
I agree 100% with you. Speed isn't everything. Speed coupled with efficiency coupled with a high sense of pride equals a highly productive, detail oriented person. But when the supervisor calls all his guys "dumb f***s" right in front of them to other trades, I feel is way out of line. That is why the pain of working for someone has far exceeded the pain of working for myself. I come to you guys for support and advice from time to time. I want to know you guys would handle the situation, as I am at my melting point. thanks gentlemen
Gerry
DesertRat
08-12-2007, 05:35 PM
more productivity than the guy getting paid 1/2 as much....
productivity is not just moving faster...it's also working smarter...
running the wire so that you don't need to climb up and down a ladder...
getting all the parts in 1 trip to the truck, instead of 3 trips because you forgot a coupling, and a locknut....
planning the job so that you run all your conduits/cables that are going the same way at the same time....instead of making the run 3 seperate times with 3 seperate conduits.....
generally, being more efficient and productive by using your knowledge and experience.
so yes, if theoretically, the cream rose to the top, you would expect that cream to be more efficient then the curd over at the shop paying 1/2 as much...
Arguably efficiency is everything. At some point, most of us have worked with that guy, usually an older guy with lots of years in the trade, who looks like he isn't doing anything or exerting any energy, but at the end of the day has more work done than the rest of the crew. In theory, thats the kind of guy will gravitate towords the high paying shop with the best benefits and work environment, since he generally knows what he's worth. IMO we should all pay close attention to that guy and do our best to emulate him.
480sparky
08-12-2007, 05:49 PM
Arguably efficiency is everything. At some point, most of us have worked with that guy, usually an older guy with lots of years in the trade, who looks like he isn't doing anything or exerting any energy, but at the end of the day has more work done than the rest of the crew. In theory, thats the kind of guy will gravitate towords the high paying shop with the best benefits and work environment, since he generally knows what he's worth. IMO we should all pay close attention to that guy and do our best to emulate him.
I was told a long time ago to look for just such people. They don't seem to look like they're working, but by 2:30 they have the days' work done and are working on a cup of coffee. They're the ones who have figured out how to do the task in the most efficient manner.
mdshunk
08-12-2007, 05:59 PM
I was told a long time ago to look for just such people. They don't seem to look like they're working, but by 2:30 they have the days' work done and are working on a cup of coffee. They're the ones who have figured out how to do the task in the most efficient manner.
On a similar note, I've worked around guys who are just as clean at the end of the day at when they started, but got a good day's work done. I remember one fella who got the nick-name "Mr. Clean" for this special ability. Heck, he'd work all day in his golf shirt and shorts, only to hop into his car at quitting time to go golfing.
chris kennedy
08-12-2007, 06:04 PM
How do you pay a piece worker? You write the check then 1099 him? So now you have an unlicensed sub contractor working under your permit. How is that legal?
emahler
08-12-2007, 06:09 PM
How do you pay a piece worker? You write the check then 1099 him? So now you have an unlicensed sub contractor working under your permit. How is that legal?
no...that would be a sub contractor, not an employee....read through the thread, the answer is in here..
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