Strictly Labor

[solaeros]

A development company asked me to bid "Labor only" costs for a group of homes they are getting ready to build. The total subdivision will be around 75 homes and there are 6 models to choose from ranging in size from 1500 to 3000 square feet. I have somewhat limited residential experience being mostly a commercial/ industrial electrician. In the past the homes I've done have been t&m but, these guy want a bid price. Any tips on how to go about that? They will supply everything from wire to, boxes to, fixtures.

[emahler]

honestly? unless you are hard up for the work, don't do it. They will nickle and dime you to death. You will never have all the material you need, when you need it. It will waste time and cost you precious hours.

If you really want to spend time pricing it, and submit a price - figure the job with you supplying the material, then backout the approximate cost of the material.

but, i doubt they will accept any price that allows you to make money.

[dezwitinc]

Don't do it!!
They are setting you up to fail (it may not be intentional, but trust those of us that have been around a while).
They are asking you to take all the risk with little room for reward.

[solaeros]

honestly? unless you are hard up for the work, don't do it. They will nickle and dime you to death. You will never have all the material you need, when you need it. It will waste time and cost you precious hours.

Interesting. That's a point I never even considered

[mdshunk]

It's a trick. It's a trap. If you want to sell labor, get a job and ring a time clock.

[celtic]

Big red flags all over the place!

In addition to all mentioned above....

- You are leaving money on the table in the form on mark-up you are "giving away"
- Who is responsible should some material "fail" after installation?
- etc


This GC is looking to drive someone into the ground while fattening his purse.

[480sparky]

I have yet to see one of these jobs where everything you will need is supplied. They will short you on everything..... wire, boxes, breakers. The nail-on boxes will be too small for your make-ups. THe mount of wire they leave you can do the the job, but only if you spend a day figuring out how to do it. You will end up spending far too much time getting what you need, if you can get it at all. They could care less if you stand around on the job waiting for 4 hours while they get more stuff for you. You gave them a price, after all!

Be afraid. Be very afraid.

Better yet... "Run, Forrest... Run!"

[ITO]

..If you really want to spend time pricing it, and submit a price - figure the job with you supplying the material, then backout the approximate cost of the material...

This is exactly how I was taught to handle this.

Oh and just as an afterthought, what happens when the quantity of romex they say is enough, inst enough?

[jaylectricity]

While I didn't ask the original question, I appreciate reading these replies.

It makes sense that bidding a job based on labor-only is a little suspect. I didn't think of it before but we all weigh the balance between product and labor. How many times have you had to put up a light fixture that didn't make it easy to install? So they save money on a light fixture that takes you twice as long to figure out how to install easily.

[macmikeman]

Um gee, I have two contractors that supply me a stream of houses where the lumber company supplies the panel, breakers, wiring devices, plates, lights, I supply the rest. The first one I did not even know about them supplying the stuff, the gc didn't tell me that part. I just figured out the job the same as I was supplying everything myself and submited the bid that way. One lead to another and another and then the second contractor found out about my outfit from the lumber company. The freebie stuff is extra gravy. So far no one figured it out yet, and believe me I do not bid residential cheap. So if I was you I would figure the price just like you are going to supply everything including labor and materials, submit your bid, you just never know.

[LarryFine]

I guess I'm the weird one, but I wouldn't mind a labor-only job, as long as certain qualifications are part of the contract, such as extra money for waiting for materials, incorrect or missing parts, etc., as mentioned here, as well as including the "lost" mark-up money.

I did a large house for labor only, dealing directly with the home-owner, who was his own GC, as well as the designer of the house. I designed the electrical together, we made changes as necessary, he agreed with my recommendations for materials and layouts, etc.

He never failed to get what I needed when I needed it, or reimburse me for anything I had to get, including shopping time, etc. If I had to supply materials, I'd have stressed over shopping for best prices. I'd do it again in a heartbeat under the same circunstances.

[celtic]

The total subdivision will be around 75 homes and there are 6 models to choose from ranging in size from 1500 to 3000 square feet.



I did a large house for labor only, dealing directly with the home-owner, who was his own GC, as well as the designer of the house. I designed the electrical together, we made changes as necessary, he agreed with my recommendations for materials and layouts, etc.



These are two different games played in two different arenas.

One home with a co-operative HO/GC (who is motivated) is not even close to 75 homes with layers of management.

[480sparky]

The freebie stuff is extra gravy.

Great work if you can get it, but I don't think that's the norm. That won't work where I am. Many GCs here get as many bids as they can for the jobs they're doing. The builders who do 'cookie-cutter' houses have absolutely no loyalty to their subs. I know of an excavator who did the digging for a big builder for 8 years, no problems, no quarrels, no hassles. Then the builder found someone else for $100 less. Their relationship ended like a Hollywood romance. If Electrician Bob is $3 less than Electrician Steve, then Bob gets the job. Bob will have the jobs until Electrician Steve bids $5 less. I avoid those builders like the plague.

[emahler]

And this is why we don't touch resi new construction

EC WINS PULTE DEAL – Pulte Homes has chosen Premier Electric (Naples, Fla.) to be exclusive electrical contractor for three communities in southwest Florida. According to The News-Press of Fort Myers, Fla., Premier, which reportedly had 2006 sales of $49M, will replace a Pulte-run work force of 85 electricians. The deal will see Premier wire 5,000 new homes, said to be worth $30M

wow...5,000 homes....WOW $30,000,000.....

wait a sec, $30,000,000 divided by 5000 homes = $6,000/home

How many of you would take on the average pulte home (2000 sq ft +/-) for $6k (probably including all material and fixtures)?

[celtic]

That *may* be a profitable (albeit small) job ....but the price tag limits it to areas with a low wage.
I am assuming these homes are "code miimum" with 0 upgrades: no jacuzzi's, OH lighting only where required, required OH lighting $5 fixtures, 2 SABC's in kitchen, non-electric heat/hot water, etc.

Premier will need to buy materials by the truck load to secure lowest possible pricing ~ but also need someplace to store this inventory until needed. ConnX boxes onsite would be a cheap solution.

Premier may also be playing the game of low-ball the homes, and hammering Pulte on the other items: street lighting, clubhouses, etc.

Would I do it?
I dunno....for that price in NJ - NO SHOT; down in FL, maybe....but I'd need a lot more info.

[andinator]

And this is why we don't touch resi new construction



wow...5,000 homes....WOW $30,000,000.....

wait a sec, $30,000,000 divided by 5000 homes = $6,000/home

How many of you would take on the average pulte home (2000 sq ft +/-) for $6k (probably including all material and fixtures)?


Figure $1000 for the piecework electrician and the EC makes $600 profit per house thats $3,000,000 profit for the EC for very little hassle. I know an EC in ATL who is the licence holder for the company, has a little chicky in the office rubber stamp the permits with his signature, lives in a beautiful house in the mountains and comes to ATL maybe three times a year. Pulte is a BIG outfit and I bet it's smooth sailing working for them. I guessing ATL is probably the exception but there are hundreds if not thousands of neighborhoods---not houses ,but entire neighborhoods that have never seen a licensed electrician.8-)

[iwire]

there are hundreds if not thousands of neighborhoods---not houses ,but entire neighborhoods that have never seen a licensed electrician.8-)

Are you saying that is a good thing????

I can tell you that does not happen here.

CT just changed the rules so that an apprentice has to be in sight or within earshot of the J-man they are working with.

[ITO]

I am pretty sure it happens everywhere.

My house was wired by a crew that did not speak a word of English, by the headlights of a truck in the middle of the night. The thing is with a few exceptions they very nice job.

[mdshunk]

CT just changed the rules so that an apprentice has to be in sight or within earshot of the J-man they are working with.
I think that's a good rule.

There aren't even licensing requirements for most of where I work, but where they exist, the unlicensed men must be "under the supervision" of the licensed man. I have no idea what that's supposed to mean with regard to where the licensed man is, physically. As long as the chain of command is arranged such that the licensed man is the supervisor, he could be 2,000 miles away laying on an island beach, and it would meet the letter of the law.

[tonyou812]

Big red flags all over the place!

In addition to all mentioned above....

- You are leaving money on the table in the form on mark-up you are "giving away"
- Who is responsible should some material "fail" after installation?
- etc


This GC is looking to drive someone into the ground while fattening his purse.
I absolutly agree, give him the labor rate with your mark up figured in just to mess with him. What nerve. I would tell this guy to kiss my rear your in this buisness to make money not give it away. Tell him hes responsible for the warrenty after wards if your really hard up for work.

[mdshunk]

I absolutly agree, give him the labor rate with your mark up figured in ... What nerve.
The guy probably only has that "nerve" because he likely has other EC at other developments in other towns that are doing just that for him. He may think it's a completely normal thing to do.

[celtic]

I wouldn't blame the GC either.
He's found a way to be more profitable....it's not his fault some EC's enjoy mac & cheese for dinner every day, is it?

[emahler]

it's not his fault some EC's enjoy mac & cheese for dinner every day, is it?


Man, you have just been picking on me all day today...what'd i do to you? :D

[satcom]

I wouldn't blame the GC either.
He's found a way to be more profitable....it's not his fault some EC's enjoy mac & cheese for dinner every day, is it?

"mac & cheese" well that's because your north of us, we have spam on a dinner roll, on a good week.

I worked for a guy, that had the boats, nice trucks, and all the toys, come to find out, his wife made high six figure income, his contracting work was making next to nothing.

[celtic]

I worked for a guy, that had the boats, nice trucks, and all the toys, come to find out, his wife made high six figure income, his contracting work was making next to nothing.

I think I worked with his brother....for some reason, he thought his salary bought thier mil+ home....he comes to find out during the divorce, his wife's company is a deep 6 figure money maker for her. He couldn't afford to "buy her out", so she bought his half ~ cash.

[celtic]

Man, you have just been picking on me all day today...what'd i do to you? :D
You don't buy me pies :D

LOL

[emahler]

You don't buy me pies :D

LOL

be more nicer to me....

[active1]

Like others said don't do it.

They will get you the worst materials that take the longest to install.
You will end up using your own materials or waisting a few hours for some screws, odd fittings, etc. The chances of getting all the right material is slim.
Then theirs the game of "find the material in the house". Different parts all over the house mixed in with other things. I would bet you will still end up unloading a lot of material off the truck. Then with a development you will have lots of stuff in one house and will have to cary it down the street to the next place. Then they will want you to warrenty their garbage.

If you want this then tell them to give you a job application. At least then you will have some rights.

[celtic]

be more nicer to me....

The beatings will continue until morale improves ;)

[growler]

A development company asked me to bid "Labor only" costs for a group of homes they are getting ready to build. The total subdivision will be around 75 homes and there are 6 models to choose from ranging in size from 1500 to 3000 square feet. I have somewhat limited residential experience being mostly a commercial/ industrial electrician.

There are already plenty of residential contractors out there with experience in wiring this type of house. They will bid these as cheap as it's possible to bid them and still make a dime. There is no way to compete with these guys so stick with what you know.