3-way Delima

[ElectricianJeff]

I have run into another that I could use some help on.

I am rewiring a rehab for a customer. They wanted the receps. in the living room all split. Hot on the bottom and 3-way switched on top. I have done this several times but never with a three-way involved but didn't see it as a problem. I roughed with line on one 3-way and the recep. load on the other 3-way switch. When I roughed the receps. in I used 12/2/2 wire since I had some on the truck and having not done this before thought the extra neutral might come in handy. When I went to finish today I elected to just pig-tail the 4 neutrals in each recep. since I didn't think it really would matter as to the operation of the 3-way. I broke the brass clip on the line side, black on bottom, red on top.

The result was I had 120 V on the bottom nada on the top. All my connections appear solid and I have 120 V at the line side of the 3-way. It was getting late but I did take some meter readings at the load side that would make me think I have an open neutral.

What gives? Do I need to separate and break the neutral clip at the recepts? I thought this would be easy but its got me scratching my bald head. Any help, as always, is greatly appreciated.

Jeff

p.s. I hope my explanation makes sense.

[donselectric]

you cant just pig tail them all you need travelers i think
you need 3 wire from sw to sw and through the recps

[Dennis Alwon]

What is 12/2/2???

[stickboy1375]

If you are not sure if your wiring is correct, draw it on paper and make sure it works, not sure if I read your post correctly but sounds like you fed 1 of the 3 ways and then ran a 12-3 to to the next 3 way then hit the receptacles with a 12-2-2?

[benmin]

I roughed with line on one 3-way and the recep. load on the other 3-way switch.

do you have a feed at the "load end" to supply power to the always hot of the recp?

[stickboy1375]

What is 12/2/2???


same a 14-2-2 , it contains two whites and a blk and red, perfect for AFI and GFI homeruns...

http://www.southwire.com/Southwire/StaticFiles/Images/romexextra2.jpg

[Dennis Alwon]

same a 14-2-2 , it contains two whites and a blk and red, perfect for arcfaults and gfi homeruns...

I have never seen it-- thanks stickboy

[stickboy1375]

I have never seen it-- thanks stickboy


I use it alot, some wire manufacturers call it 14-4 but with a added " 2 circuit" logo on the box...

[Dennis Alwon]

Jeff

Try explaining the rest of the connection. I am assuming there is a feed in one 3 way and a 3 wire cable to the other 3 way.

One 3 way has a 12/2 to the first rec. and the other 3 way has a 12/2 to the last recep.? Is this correct or is the feed in the recep?

[Dennis Alwon]

I use it alot, some wire manufacturers call it 14-4 but with a added " 2 circuit" logo on the box...

I have heard of 14/4 but never saw it. I assumed it had a blue wire.

[stickboy1375]

I have heard of 14/4 but never saw it. I assumed it had a blue wire.


You are correct, a 14-4 will contain a BLK, RED, BLUE, & WHITE, I'm surprised you never needed a 14-4 for adding a four way switch, it makes life simple sometimes...

[benmin]

I have heard of 14/4 but never saw it. I assumed it had a blue wire.

an extra nuetral with a red stripe

[Dennis Alwon]

You are correct, a 14-4 will contain a BLK, RED, BLUE, & WHITE, I'm surprised you never needed a 14-4 for adding a four way switch, it makes life simple sometimes...

I just carry a 3 wire in and out of the 4 way. Usually I feed one 3 way and switch leg out the other carrying the neutral through.

[stickboy1375]

I used 14-4 the other day, I had wall sconces on each gable end controlled with a set of of 3 ways on each gable end, it saved me only running 1 wire between the 3 way switches...the job was old work and I was already tired of cutting out sheetrock behind the baseboard...:mad:

[cadpoint]

If you can't draw it like "Stick" said, you ain't going to wire it correctly.:rolleyes:

The switchs are only before or after the Devices ... U didn't make the cut ...

[stickboy1375]

If you can draw it like "Stick" said, you ain't going to wire it correctly.:rolleyes:


My post was to Dennis and the uses of 14-4, not how to wire a switched receptacle with a set of 3 ways...

[cadpoint]

Sorry I didn't mean that, I only understood it to orginal OP... Let me take the blinds offs ...

[stickboy1375]

If you can't draw it like "Stick" said, you ain't going to wire it correctly.:rolleyes:

The switchs are only before or after the Devices ... U didn't make the cut ...


So you would rather pull a 14-3 and a 14-2 when you only need a 14-4?

[stickboy1375]

Sorry I didn't mean that, I only understood it to orginal OP... Let me take the blinds offs ...


Not a problem, I know the hardest thing to understand on this forum is where the poster is actually coming from...

[quogueelectric]

What is 12/2/2???
Dennis 12/2/2/ is a 5 conductor 12 wire with 2 sets of 12/2 and a ground wire in the same cable it is very expensive. I usually pick it up when it goes on sale and they are looking to move stock. I sometimes use it for ac runs where a service receptacle is required and the Ac load is under 16 amps fla so I dont have to run annother ckt I am charging for one anyway. It would be good for arc fault breaker runs to bedrooms with adjascent walls or wherever you need 2 circuits with separate neutrals or 2 2pole circuits.like 2 small appliance ckts in a kitchen where you used gfci breakers and yes the second set of wires are marked for positive identification.

[busman]

When I went to finish today I elected to just pig-tail the 4 neutrals in each recep. since I didn't think it really would matter as to the operation of the 3-way.

Neutrals of this size cannot be in parallel. The extra wire should be left unused OR the tab needs to be removed from both sides of the receptacle.

Mark

[quogueelectric]

as far as the 3 way you need 3 parts #1 a feed..........#2 travellers..........#3 a load or switched leg... You did run a 3 wire between 3 way switches and the easiest way is to feed at 1st switch 3 wire travellers to 2nd switch and switched load to devices or lights. Sounds to me like you forgot your travelers between switches.

[480sparky]

Jeff: Are you saying you ran 12/4 from the first 3-way to a split recep, then over to the other three-way? Like this?:

3-way-------recep----------recep--------recep-------------3-way

If you did, you won't be able to make the 3-ways work a split recep. You will need a total of 5 conductors, one hot, two travellers, one switch leg and the neutral.

You keep talking about the neutral and extra neutrals and splitting the neutral side. The neutral has nothing to do with 3-way switching and split receps.... it's all done on the hot conductors.

[charlie tuna]

your post does not give a full picture of what you did!! anyway you do it, the neutrals can be separate or common to all the receptacles provided they are spliced together if common???? you need a feed or hot into one three way and two travelers to the other three way, and a switchleg from that three way back to the switched conductor connected to the switched side of the receptacle. you also must have a hot to the unswitched side of the receptacles. easy.................... now what did you do wrong??

[Chenley]

This is the only two ways I have to wire them:
Sorry about the background. Would have it on white except it would color the neutrals black and :confused: people.
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v684/zooyork_ny/switched003.jpg

[solaeros]

here's how I would do it.

[al hildenbrand]

Jeff: Are you saying you ran 12/4 from the first 3-way to a split recep, then over to the other three-way? Like this?:

3-way-------recep----------recep--------recep-------------3-wayTake a look at using the "Traveling Bus 3 way" to make this work.

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v665/AlHildenbrand/Electrical/TravellingBusHalfSwitchedReceptacle.jpg

[ElectricianJeff]

Jeff: Are you saying you ran 12/4 from the first 3-way to a split recep, then over to the other three-way? Like this?:

3-way-------recep----------recep--------recep-------------3-way

If you did, you won't be able to make the 3-ways work a split recep. You will need a total of 5 conductors, one hot, two travellers, one switch leg and the neutral.

You keep talking about the neutral and extra neutrals and splitting the neutral side. The neutral has nothing to do with 3-way switching and split receps.... it's all done on the hot conductors.

Sorry....had my monthly poker club last night and wasn't able to stay on top of this thread but I did win some $$$. I am truly amazed by the number of responses.

Heres what I did at rough in:

3way---12/2/2---recep---12/2/2---recep---12/2/2---recep---12/2/2---3way

12/3 3way to 3way

I have the line at one 3 way and the recep load at the other.

Right or wrong, I elected to pig all neutrals (4 total) at each recep making a common neutral for each.

I am headed back there Thurs. so any help making this work is obviouslly greatly appreciated.

Jeff

[cadpoint]

Let me back of my earlier statement of Forward or Aft ...

I've never seen that, nor every applied that, that is to Cool.

[Dennis Alwon]

Jeff-what about conductor fill in that 3 way. Power 12/2 plus 12/3 for 3 way wires plus 12/2/2--- that's 10 conductors without the device or clamps.

I also see issues with parallel neutrals.

[Dennis Alwon]

You really don't need the wire from the last recep. to the 3 way switch.

Just dead end one 3 way ( don't use the 12/2/2 from the second 3 way to the recep) and have feed and switched wires come from the first 3 way switch to the first rec. Don't use the second neutral in the 12/2/2 that feeds the recep.

[benmin]

Sorry....had my monthly poker club last night and wasn't able to stay on top of this thread but I did win some $$$. I am truly amazed by the number of responses.

Heres what I did at rough in:

3way---12/2/2---recep---12/2/2---recep---12/2/2---recep---12/2/2---3way

12/3 3way to 3way

I have the line at one 3 way and the recep load at the other.

Right or wrong, I elected to pig all neutrals (4 total) at each recep making a common neutral for each.

I am headed back there Thurs. so any help making this work is obviouslly greatly appreciated.

Jeff

Sounds like you might just have a switch miswired. I would check them first.

Feed 3way: 1. All neutrals tied together and stuffed into back of box 2. Red from 12-2-2 capped and stuffed into back of box. 3. Black from 12-2-2 and black from feed tied together and connected to the switch leg screw of the switch (black colored). 4. red and black from the 12-3 used as travellers.

Load 3way: 1. All neutrals tied together and stuffed into back of box. 2. Black from 12-2-2 capped and stuffed into back of box. 3. Red from 12-2-2 connected to switch leg screw on switch (black colored). 4. red and black from the 12-3 used as travellers.

The most common mistake I find is when on the 3way at load side, The Black (always hot) is connected to the 3 way instead of the red (switched)

[Dennis Alwon]

Feed 3way: 1. All neutrals tied together and stuffed into back of box 2. Red from 12-2-2 capped and stuffed into back of box. 3. Black from 12-2-2 and black from feed tied together and connected to the switch leg screw of the switch (black colored). 4. red and black from the 12-3 used as travellers.

Load 3way: 1. All neutrals tied together and stuffed into back of box. 2. Black from 12-2-2 capped and stuffed into back of box. 3. Red from 12-2-2 connected to switch leg screw on switch (black colored). 4. red and black from the 12-3 used as travellers.

The most common mistake I find is when on the 3way at load side, The Black (always hot) is connected to the 3 way instead of the red (switched)

This is an illegal hookup with all whites tied together-- art 310.4

[benmin]

This is an illegal hookup with all whites tied together-- art 310.4

OK. Then we can disconnect the 12-2-2 red/white in the feed 3way, cap it and place in back of box. That way it will not be "electrically joined at each end"

[Dennis Alwon]

OK. Then we can disconnect the 12-2-2 red/white in the feed 3way, cap it and place in back of box. That way it will not be "electrically joined at each end"

You would have to disconnect the red striped white wire everywhere. It still is feeding as a loop from the other direction.

[hardworkingstiff]

here's how I would do it.

You would need a 5th conductor between the receptacles to do it that way.

[R2006]

Hi Jeff.
Not sure if i understand the question but I'll give it a try.
You have a hot at one 3-way, then you need 3-wire looping the affected outlets, and a 3-wire to the other 3-way, at the 3-way with the hot, splice the nuetral and the white going to the outlets, splice the hot and the black going to the outlets with the black going to the other 3-way, (or what ever color you prefer) the 2 remaining wires to the other 3-way become your travlers,on the 3- way with the hot you should have a red and white to the other 3-way they go under the common screws and the red to the outlets under the diffrent screw, at the outlet break the hot tab(dont break the neutral) and at the other 3-way red and white under common screws and black under diffrent screw. double check me it's been a busy day but i think this should work for you.

[al hildenbrand]

3way---12/2/2---recep---12/2/2---recep---12/2/2---recep---12/2/2---3way

12/3 3way to 3wayJeff,

It'll be simpler with lower wire count to ditch the 12/3.

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v665/AlHildenbrand/Electrical/TravellingBusHalfSwitchedReceptacle.jpg

[benmin]

You would have to disconnect the red striped white wire everywhere. It still is feeding as a loop from the other direction.

Even though I believe it is redundant wiring, You're right by my understanding of 310.4:mad:

[fisherelectric]

Why not just feed it in the receptacle, run a 2-wire switch leg to the first three-way, a 3 wire between switches. Then if you want more 1/2 hot receptacles , come from the first receptacle to the others with a 3 wire.

[ElectricianJeff]

Sounds like you might just have a switch miswired. I would check them first.

Ok, thanks to everyone for their input. I must have a switch miswired. Thursday I will recheck everything and go ahead and seperate the white and red/white neutrals at the devices. I don't believe box fill to be a problem as both are 3 gang with 2 other single switches.

I'll post a note when finished.

Thanks again,

Jeff

[hardworkingstiff]

Someone please delete this post.

[ElectricianJeff]

Someone please delete this post.

If my lack of knowledge has somehow offended you then for that I apoligize. I am here to learn.

I pulled the switches and checked them this morning. One of the 3-ways was bad right out of the box. No continuity on either leg. New switch and it worked like a champ.

Thanks again to everyone that chose to give me valuable input regarding this problem. I learned some things that will come in handy.

Jeff

[LarryFine]

If my lack of knowledge has somehow offended you then for that I apoligize. I am here to learn.You have learned, and you have no reason to apologize.

[al hildenbrand]

Jeff,

Actually, I think Lou was asking that just his last post be deleted.

Look at the post time and edit time.

I just happened to get a snippet of his post in an automatic email of activity in a thread I have posted in, and when I logged in, Lou had already changed the post to the "please delete this".

It wasn't about you. As Larry says, you're learning.

We're all learning.

That's the truly delicious feature of this community. 8-)

[benmin]

If my lack of knowledge has somehow offended you then for that I apoligize. I am here to learn.

I do believe Hardworkingstiff was refering to his "post" and not the "thread".

[ElectricianJeff]

I do believe Hardworkingstiff was refering to his "post" and not the "thread".


My mistake................thats not how I saw it but duly stand corrected.

Jeff

[ElectricianJeff]

Jeff,

We're all learning.

That's the truly delicious feature of this community. 8-)

It truly is......this forum has been the second best thing I ever discovered. The first was a 3 letter word that starts with a "S" but lets not go there.:rolleyes:

Now if I could only figure out how to quote different posts in the same reply life would be so grand.

Jeff

[Dennis Alwon]

It truly is......this forum has been the second best thing I ever discovered. The first was a 3 letter word that starts with a "S" but lets not go there.:rolleyes:

Now if I could only figure out how to quote different posts in the same reply life would be so grand.

Jeff

Just copy and paste the message you want and add at the beginning and at the end.

If you want the persons name type quote=Jeff with the bracket and /quote at the end with the brackets

[hardworkingstiff]

I do believe Hardworkingstiff was refering to his "post" and not the "thread".

Yes, I was refering to my post. After I read it, I realized I was WRONG! I hate to be wrong. :rolleyes:

Thanks to all that pointed this out.

[hardworkingstiff]

If my lack of knowledge has somehow offended you then for that I apoligize. I am here to learn.

I pulled the switches and checked them this morning. One of the 3-ways was bad right out of the box. No continuity on either leg. New switch and it worked like a champ.

Thanks again to everyone that chose to give me valuable input regarding this problem. I learned some things that will come in handy.

Jeff

Jeff, I too learn in here all the time. I'm sorry you thought I was talking about you, I wasn't.

[ElectricianJeff]

Jeff, I too learn in here all the time. I'm sorry you thought I was talking about you, I wasn't.

No problem, Lou. I read it when I first got home after a really hot day in this homes nasty basement. Didn't even notice the quick edit until someone pointed it out.

Jeff