Time Clocks

[ITO]

Anyone here use a time clock for a job?

Specifically I am interested in a time clock for a larger project to be mounted in the job trailer, that I can connect to via a phone line to down load the time.

This is an experiment, I decided to try after I made the mistake of tracking some of my guys with the GPS on their Nextel. Don't do that, you don't want to know.

[mdshunk]

Yes, this one:

http://www.jobclock.com/

[emahler]

after I made the mistake of tracking some of my guys with the GPS on their Nextel. Don't do that, you don't want to know.

might as well tell me "don't look now"

do tell....do tell....

[chris kennedy]

might as well tell me "don't look now"

do tell....do tell....

We have also been discussing the future of GPS in all our trucks.

Tell us a story ITO.

[iwire]

I am working for a new company, we all will be GPS tracked and dispatched shortly.

With the old company we used time clocks in the gang boxes of large jobs. But they where just paper and required a 'second man' to collect and keep track of.

[emahler]

Bob,

can't believe you are going to agree to be tracked....now they are gonna wanna dock pay for unauthorized breaks:D

[iwire]

Bob,

can't believe you are going to agree to be tracked....now they are gonna wanna dock pay for unauthorized breaks:D

I am one of the few in the company that has no issue with it.

There is 'my time' and there is 'company time' as long as I am on their clock, driving their truck, using their phone, representing them I think they have every right in the world to know where I am. :)

Also for all those times I am home early they can also see how early I start. 8-)

[kjw444]

At my company all of our trucks have gps. They claim they use it for maintenance on the vans like oil changes etc.. They also look to see who is leaving early or using the truck on personal time. Makes sense to me I would do the same if I were an owner. It sure did help when one of our trucks was stolen from a guy’s driveway five minutes before he was leaving. They were able to tell the police in real time where the truck was and assist in catching the thieves.

[brian john]

MY partner wanted GPS's I fought the idea and so far have won.

[chris kennedy]

MY partner wanted GPS's I fought the idea and so far have won.

Why would you fight that Brian. This is your future like it or not.

[mdshunk]

I think it's hard to put as much trust in employees as we do on one hand, then put GPS in the truck. Sorta contradictory. Production, number of calls per day, and average ticket per man hour are simple enough metrics to track to see who's historicly goofing off. I would support an employer's right to install GPS, but it's just not something I see myself doing purposely. I know the better dispatching systems now come with that as a standard feature (and, indeed, a necessary feature to the way the dispatch system works), which is how I might end up with it one day whether I want it or not. No big deal, in that case.

[satcom]

MY partner wanted GPS's I fought the idea and so far have won.

I agree, GPS to secure truck, not the employee, we hire what we preceive as men with special skills, one of which should be their ability to manage their time, IMO, treating them as production labor, is counter productive.

[ITO]

I think it's hard to put as much trust in employees as we do on one hand, then put GPS in the truck. Sorta contradictory....

The truth would probably give you heart burn.

So why is it so hard to get info about the jobclock without filling out an application?

[mdshunk]

So why is it so hard to get info about the jobclock without filling out an application?
Beats me. It costs about 1400 bucks to get a basic set up. It's a pretty decent system. You could do the same thing by building a little shack over a regular time card type time clock that you can buy out of the Grainger catalog, but you won't be able to poll it over the phone line. You'd have to collect the cards by some means.

[got_nailed]

I had one job that I had to carry a work pager. I didn’t know why they wanted me to carry a pager when I always had 2 cell phones with me at all times.

After about a moth of the pager I found out it had the GPS in it to track where I was 24/7. I complained and ended up leavening the job because of this. My time is my time when I’m on the clock it’s there time. They always had a way to contact me with my cell phones. I will never work somewhere that I have to care a GPS on me unless it is in working hours.

As far as one in a company vehicle like I have now I don’t mind it at all. I only use it for work and a few trips to the store or something. I love that when I’m traveling out of town they don’t have to call me to find out where I’m at, they just get on the net and they can see. The best part of the car is I the on star.

[LarryFine]

Okay, so I'm interested in getting a simple GPS system for our two vans. I understand there are two basic types; real-time internet tracking and build-in memory that you download at the end of the day or week. Cost is an issue. Suggestions, please.

[ptonsparky]

I bought a cheaper analog system to track me. I have lost weeks because of not writing my time down. Every 15 minutes it would log where I was and I could retrieve it at my convenience via internet. I drive alot and can make mutiple stops on the same route several times in the same day. Didn't help. Just more paper work to sort through. The websight was to slow etc. On the plus side, I can use it to start/stop equipment via cell phone any where analog service is available.

Get one you can try for a month before you buy.

[LarryFine]

Get one you can try for a month before you buy.I'd love to. Any info on yours? :-?

[benaround]

Two can play that game, buy one and install it on the bosses car, see how

long he spends on lunch ( and where ).

[480sparky]

1. It's not your vehicle, so you don't have any legal way of installing one.
2. He's the boss. Maybe he spent 2 hours at lunch somewhere talking with a builder about a $XX-million contract that will keep you employed for the next two years. Besides, he's probably salaried anyway, so hours don't count.

[iwire]

Maybe he spent 2 hours at lunch somewhere talking with a builder about a $XX-million contract that will keep you employed for the next two years.

Maybe....

Or maybe he spent 4 hours at the track betting on the ponies but either way it really none of my business unless the bets where made with the payroll.

[JohnJ0906]

I had one job that I had to carry a work pager. I didn’t know why they wanted me to carry a pager when I always had 2 cell phones with me at all times.

After about a moth of the pager I found out it had the GPS in it to track where I was 24/7.

Did they ever give a reason why they wanted to know where you were off-the-clock? (Not that there would be a valid one, IMO)


I could care less if my employer had one on the van, or even on my company Nextel, but my time is my business.

[got_nailed]

Well I was a manager of a small chain of mom and pop restaurants. I ended up dating one of the other managers. My boss thought something was going on so we all got pagers. Instead of asking he got us all pagers so we could be reached in an emergency (so he know were we were).

Well he went ape shit when he found out that we all hung out and many nights me and one of the other managers we at each outers house all the time. The only ones that know in the company were the managers. The thing I don’t get is she worked 20 miles from were I worked.

Well we all turned in our 2 weeks and went our way and about 1/2 his staff flowed us.

[busman]

I am a one man company so I have no need to track my movements (unless I go Multiple Personality Disorder). I do have a GPS in my truck and have found it very useful on service calls where the customer swears I was "never on the job that long." I just pull out the unit and show them (down to the atomic clock second) when I arrived and when I left. Usually get an apology at that point.

Also helped me beat a speeding ticket once. I had the record of exact speed, location and time to argue in court.

Mark

[don_resqcapt19]

I had one job that I had to carry a work pager. I didn’t know why they wanted me to carry a pager when I always had 2 cell phones with me at all times. How did they compensate you for requiring you to carry a pager?(unless you are on salary) It is a violation of federal labor law to make you carry a phone or pager in non-working hours without some type of compensation.
Don

[iwire]

It is a violation of federal labor law to make you carry a phone or pager in non-working hours without some type of compensation.
Don

Don, I am not so sure of that, you would be doing me a favor if you can find something official on it.

I have looked in the past and have not found anything unless being 'on call' requires you to stay at the place of employment.

[mdshunk]

Don, I am not so sure of that, you would be doing me a favor if you can find something official on it.
Carrying the pager during off-hours does require you to perform some action on behalf of your employer (carry the pager). Otherwise, you could just leave it lay on the night stand.

[iwire]

Carrying the pager during off-hours does require you to perform some action on behalf of your employer (carry the pager). Otherwise, you could just leave it lay on the night stand.


Agreed, but if we call that 'work' then the minimum wage would apply and highly doubt many people get the minimum wage for all the off 'normal' work hours carrying the pager....then after 40 is time and half....

All I am saying is it's not that clear.

I carry a phone 24/7 and I am compensated for it, but I think the compensation could be more.

[mdshunk]

Interesting article here: http://www.nolo.com/article.cfm/objectID/0AB41C75-3C54-4BA6-83A224ADAA80DD64/104/150/249/ART/

The author's opinion is that if you're "on call" and you can't do things like travel and/or consume alcohol while "on call", then you're entitled to be paid.

[don_resqcapt19]

Bob,
I am only going by what I was told by an attorney for a full time paid fire department union. The city wanted the fire fighters to carry pagers when off duty, but was not willing to compensate them in any way. The firefighters were not required to carry pagers as the city did not want to fight this out in court or negotiate it in the union contract. It may be something specific to firefighters. I think it also has to do with how often you have to respond to a page.
Don

[don_resqcapt19]

It appears that the issue of pay or compensation for "on-call" time is very complicated and there are many factors that enter into it.
http://jobsearchtech.about.com/od/laborlaws/l/aa082602_3.htm

[got_nailed]

I was paid by the hour and worked 60 to 80 hours a week. I was not paid for being on call in any way but during working hours I had to be there. If I did get a call I was paid $30 for the first hour form the time of the call then paid as normal after that.

I was making $15 an hour and our hours were Monday thought Saturday 11:00 to 9:00. Between the restraint, and the bakery there was someone there almost 24/7 accept part of Sunday.

I did not know that I should have on call pay. I would refuse to work on salary and still do.

[ITO]

After 911 and the Patriot act all cell phones made after 2005 were required to have GPS. I may have the date or some specifics wrong on that but all new cell phones do have them. So this means a cell phone provided by your employer can potentially be a GPS tracking device. I don’t know about other brands but Sprint/Nextel gives me full tracking ability of all phones on my account and it is as easy as logging into a website and selecting “track”.

An old contractor once told me not to look too closely at the work habits of people you did not wish to fire. Well that is one more piece of advice I should have taken to heart. After tracking a long time employee, I now have to make a judgment call of whether his production warrants keeping him on the payroll despite the fact he as not worked a 40 hour week in months, but is getting paid for one.

This guy out produces any 3 younger men any day of the week, but only works about 6 hours a day, gets general foreman’s pay, and drives a company truck home every day. The math is in his favor on this one, but it still gives me heart burn. So the time clock may be the solution, or he may quit me anyway.

As for the asinine comment about tracking your boss, go start a business work 80 hour weeks and risk everything to be your own boss then come talk to me about some employee who thinks it’s a good idea to track his boss.

After 3:30 I could not care less where my men are, and they generally turn their phones off.

[iwire]

After 911 and the Patriot act all cell phones made after 2005 were required to have GPS.

That is correct it also has to do with the 911 system and a member here who works for some large phone company says that law enforcement regularly send in warrants to track people.

One other feature.....the phone can be shut off and he can still locate it, I imagine a dead or pulled battery kills that feature but I don not know.

[don_resqcapt19]

After 911 and the Patriot act all cell phones made after 2005 were required to have GPS.
That is not correct. The cell phone providers were required to provide a location to the 911 call center when an emergency call is made. Some providers do use GPS, but many use triangulation from multiple towers to provide the location information.
Don

[iwire]

That is not correct. The cell phone providers were required to provide a location to the 911 call center when an emergency call is made. Some providers do use GPS, but many use triangulation from multiple towers to provide the location information.
Don

Don, talk to Dereck or do some Internet searching.

All cell phones now sold in the US can be GPS tracked, not all carriers may use GPS for the 911 info but they could as the phones all have to have that capability.

They may have to keep the triangulation system up and working until all the old non-GPS enabled phones leave the market.

[iwire]

Don, here is a USA Today story about how the feds got a phone company to turn a cell phone into a listening device remotely while it is turned off.

For good or bad the "Patriot Act' has had far reaching effects.

Cell Phones (http://www.usatoday.com/tech/columnist/andrewkantor/2006-12-28-cellphone-privacy_x.htm)

[ptonsparky]

Don, here is a USA Today story about how the feds got a phone company to turn a cell phone into a listening device remotely while it is turned off.

For good or bad the "Patriot Act' has had far reaching effects.

Cell Phones (http://www.usatoday.com/tech/columnist/andrewkantor/2006-12-28-cellphone-privacy_x.htm)

That is frustrating. I can't remember where I was at 8:02 am Friday, but the the gov knows, or could. Suppose they will just share that info with me? My income would go up and consequently my taxable income. We both win.

[don_resqcapt19]

Bob,
I don't see anything that says the phones have to have GPS. The law calls for the ability to locate the phone within 100 meters, but does not require the use of GPS. This can be done by methods other than GPS.
Don

[iwire]

Bob,
I don't see anything that says the phones have to have GPS.

Maybe not but it's what is happening.

[don_resqcapt19]

Maybe not but it's what is happening.
I'm glad that I hate phones...I rarely carry mine and almost never answer the one at home.

[iwire]

I'm glad that I hate phones...I rarely carry mine and almost never answer the one at home.

Well we sure agree there. :grin:

I carry my cell only because I have to, the home phone I almost never answer.

[Chenley]

Only phone I have is the cellphone, haven't had a home phone in 2+ years. I just don't really think it's economical to pay for two phones anymore.

I know that this Verizon LG8300 has GPS on it for an extra fee, I would be able to use it. I'm sure if I looked around on the net, I would find that it could be tracked by the feds.

[LarryFine]

Only phone I have is the cellphone, haven't had a home phone in 2+ years. I just don't really think it's economical to pay for two phones anymore.

I'd agree if I didn't happen to live in a house that, in spite of being within two miles of three cell towers, has just about zero signal strength.

The cellular company has sent engineers here, and they confirm that (a) the signal is almost non-existant and (b) they will do nothing about it.

[iwire]

(b) they will do nothing about it.

LOL :grin:

Don't you feel better know that emails, memos and man hours went into doing nothing?:grin:

[LarryFine]

Don't you feel better know that emails, memos and man hours went into doing nothing?:grin:

Yeah, but at least they're sure. :roll:

[benaround]

ITO,

So one man out works three ( 3x40=120) but he hasn't had a 40hr week in

months? Must be that new math.

I find some people can't put themselves in another persons' shoes. They

would have no problem " tracking " an employee, but if it happened to them

they would be outraged!!! Hence, the asinine comment. I guess you just

missed the point, trust the people and they will be trustworthy. I know this

because it is the way that I ran more than one business, and at the same

time, and had the most loyal and intuitive employees' you'll ever find.

[ITO]

ITO,

So one man out works three ( 3x40=120) but he hasn't had a 40hr week in

months? Must be that new math….

I pay him for 40 hours, if he were working alone it would be a grin and bare it type of deal, but he is a foreman and should behave as a leader. As I have already stated the math works out in his favor. Also one of the reasons he gets General Forman’s pay, and a truck is because he out produces the others. Hence the heart burn.

…I find some people can't put themselves in another persons' shoes. They
would have no problem " tracking " an employee, but if it happened to them
they would be outraged!!! Hence, the asinine comment. I guess you just missed the point…

I did not miss the point at all, perhaps you should consider my shoes, as “The Man” I risk everything, I sometimes work for nothing, and I have only myself to answer to, and if I am lucky, I make a little money doing it.

However when I worked for “The Man” by the hour , my time and location belonged to him, because I rented that to him for a agreed upon amount of money, if he chose to monitor me while I was on his time, it was not my concern. What he did with his time was also of no concern to me what so ever.

…trust the people and they will be trustworthy, I know this because it is the way that I ran more than one business, and at the same time, and had the most loyal and intuitive employees' you'll ever find.

Sorry, but not all people are trust worthy. Sure some are, but the head in the sand approach has bitten me before, and I cant afford to lose this and everyone’s job with blind optimism.

The longer I am a contractor the less I seem to trust people in general, but it could be worse...I could be a cop.

[cowboyjwc]

The thing with a time clock is this.

If I was ten minutes early, would round it up to the hour. If it was twenty minutes after I would round it back to the quarter hour. Easier for me to calc. When we went to a time clock the boss realized the it was costing him about an hour+ a week more per employee.

[ITO]

The clock I am looking at buying does not round up or down to anything, it is what it is.

[cowboyjwc]

That's what I mean. The clock actually ended up costing the boss money in payroll.

Now some companies have policies that you cannot clock in more than 5 minutes before your start time and not later than 5 minutes after your end time.

But, if it truely is what it is, then you pay me from when I clock in to when I clock out.

[ITO]

That thought has crossed my mind, but the problem I am having is measured in hours of time lost.

[George Stolz]

I don't know if a timeclock would fix anything. Standing around doing nothing is more detrimental to morale (IMO) than the foreman disappearing an hour early at the end of the day, he could be lying to the crew and saying he's after parts. Waiting around for 3:30 to come around is just as bad.

I'd imagine the most effective tool in this case is communication and surprise visits at times he usually takes off.

Edit to add - and as far as GPS goes, I've seen guys take three hour lunches and simply leave the phone on the job, and then simply say they forgot it in the van. Technology is always one step behind laziness, IMO.

[cowboyjwc]

After thinking about it a little, though the real problem is your forman taking off early, the fact that you have three other guys working under him that he is out performing and he is only working 7 hours a day to their 8, may, in his mind, justify what he is doing.

Is he really a forman or just a job supervisor?
Does he make a little or a lot more than the other guys on the crew?
Do you simply tell him what you need done that day or is the amount of work that gets done up to him?

[stickboy1375]

Edit to add - and as far as GPS goes, I've seen guys take three hour lunches and simply leave the phone on the job, and then simply say they forgot it in the van. Technology is always one step behind laziness, IMO.

They should just implant a GPS at birth... :grin: For the record, I am totally against any type of "Big Brother" watching out for me...

[ITO]

Interesting article about the same thing I did:

http://www.nypost.com/seven/08302007/news/regionalnews/track_trick.htm

[jrdsg]

At our larger projects, where we often have many technicians coming and going over the course of months, we sometimes use the security system in our locker to get a rough idea of the comings and goings of our people. Everyone logs in when they arrive and logs out when they leave. Since we install surveillance systems on these sites we can also review the video records to audit persons of interest on demand.

Since this function is built in to the security equipment it is intuitive for the employees and how we use the information is up to us.

We've also looked at GPS for our fleet, but have not installed it yet. We have equipped some clients' fleets with GPS systems.

[carambola]

since you're losing sleep about this, do yourself a favor and cut the guy loose

[ITO]

Business is business, and even though he is screwing me on the time he still makes me money.

I am only losing sleep over it because of my ego, but my kids will need college money so my ego has to take a back seat to the bottom line...beside he retires a few years.

[Double Edge]

I put a GPS system on a couple of trucks a few years ago. The system was supposed to be able to keep several different types of records online depending on how much you wanted to pay for. It never worked right on either truck and I had them back in the shop a few times to be checked out. Most of the occasions when I looked to find a truck it couldn't be found. That might be better now with different cell technology.

I also bought a pretty good electronic time clock for a job once. We used it for a couple of months on a job and then gave up after continuous operational difficulties. Some related to environment and some related to employee resistance. I would probably try the jobclock if I was going to do that again.

[quogueelectric]

There is a nice funtioning obd2 chip that plugs into any modern vehicle which gives 300 hrs of recordable running time and monitors many functions ofyour vehicles. So if joe shmoe is beating the crap out ofyour vecicle you will secretly know. It records key on key off times and basically gives you the entire trip record like hard stops hard accelerations vechi9cle speed. Bottom line combined with nextel tracking for about 20 bucks a month youcan know with 2 different event recorders if your employees are beating the crap ou of your 30 to 50k vehicle. You will have to make the decision as to whether it is worth your agravation or not .

[ITO]

I am not sure I want to know any more about their work habits...

[Dominator]

Anyone here use a time clock for a job?

Specifically I am interested in a time clock for a larger project to be mounted in the job trailer, that I can connect to via a phone line to down load the time.

This is an experiment, I decided to try after I made the mistake of tracking some of my guys with the GPS on their Nextel. Don't do that, you don't want to know.


I would never work for you. I worked around some insulators and the boss use to track them via the same method...hahah

i guess you do what you gotta do.

Been in the trade for about 4 years and have yet to punch a clock or check it via a nextel phone..feels great

[iwire]

I would never work for you.

And why is that?

Do you have something to hide?

Keep in mind I have always been an employee, never an employer.

In my opinion if your taking the bosses money the boss has a right to know where I am (while on his dime)

[emahler]

I would never work for you. I worked around some insulators and the boss use to track them via the same method...hahah

i guess you do what you gotta do.

Been in the trade for about 4 years and have yet to punch a clock or check it via a nextel phone..feels great

the last guy who i know who publicly had that opinion.....turned out he was literally a crack addict who took is old companies van to the Bronx and sold all the tools out of the back and actually sold the truck for drugs.

luckily he voiced his opinion before he had a chance to do that to us...

[Double Edge]

turned out he was literally a crack addict who took is old companies van to the Bronx and sold all the tools out of the back and actually sold the truck for drugs.


That was one reason I began looking at GPSs on vehicles. A 9 year employee self destructed into drug and alcohol problems while we continued to give him the benefit of the doubt about ever increasing mysterious gas usage, flats, repairs and tool disappearances. We also had a truck stolen.

We tried the time clock in an attempt to take some of the police burden off the job foreman on larger jobs where most of the crew acts appropriately but one element always pushes past the limits on time but otherwise do their jobs. That's not fair to the ones who don't cheat the clock or the employer. The other solutions are to spend effort and dollars to ride them, pay them less wage if you can or replace them.

[DIRT27]

I don't think I would have any problem with a GPS on my work truck. I think the employer is paying you for your time and you better have a good explianation of where you are on there time. I have been on contract jobs not approved for overtime and worked late to finish a part of a project. I ussually cut out early another day to make up for this time. I alway log what day I worked late in my day planner and why I left early another day incase there is any question. I never give any of my time to my employer for free and I don't expect them to pay me for any time that I am not working.

On another note. A few years ago I was working for an electrical sign contractor where we built a lot of stuff in house. It was the worst shop I had ever worked for. There was talk when I was there about putting cameras in the shop to watch employees durring work hours. I think this is crossing the line. Its one the thing to know where you are but the big brother thing is a little much. This shop never had a problem with tools going missing or people cutting out early because we clocked in and out at the shop every day. It should be evident if the employee is working by what is producing and what he is producing should determine his pay.
BTW this shop had double the employee turn over of any shop I have ever worked for or even seen before the cameras were installed.

This is just my opinion take it for what it is worth.

[augie47]

as an inspector, my GPS is a godsend.....I can't imagine folks running service calls not having one.
Back when I was a shop foreman, I would have given anything for a "time tracker"....not to "check up" on my electricians so much as to get accurate time records. It was amazing and frustrating to try and do weekly time sheets with the inaacuries I knew were in them. I think any "time tracking" device is a good idea for the company, the employee and the customer, who eventually pays for the time.
I know a lot of great electricans who don't "cheat" the company, but, for some reason, can't keep track of time worth a damn.

[Pierre C Belarge]

I would never work for you. I worked around some insulators and the boss use to track them via the same method...hahah

i guess you do what you gotta do.

Been in the trade for about 4 years and have yet to punch a clock or check it via a nextel phone..feels great


It will not be long before this will change for you. There are so many ways that your whereabouts can be known, that you will not be away from that for long.

It should not be a problem for anyone who is doing the right thing though...

Note: There is one way I know of to "get around" this. Get your license, become the boss and then watch how you will become aware of how some employees can just reach in your pocket and take your family's money and livelyhood away from you.

[Bob NH]

I pay him for 40 hours, if he were working alone it would be a grin and bare it type of deal, but he is a foreman and should behave as a leader.

Now that you know the situation you should be able to determine from other sources that he is not acting like a leader, and discuss it with him.

If he is goofing off you can be pretty sure that those who work with him know it and are making sure they get their share of time off on your nickel. That might be why they are such poor performers. You might want to investigate the whole crew to see what it is costing you.

There are regular reports in the news of formen who are found to be running side businesses with labor and material from the boss's business. It usually makes the papers when it is public employees.

[ITO]

I would never work for you. I worked around some insulators and the boss use to track them via the same method...hahah

i guess you do what you gotta do.

Been in the trade for about 4 years and have yet to punch a clock or check it via a nextel phone..feels great

You plan on to walking into an interview and say you have 4 years experience, refuse to punch a clock and let them know you will quit if they check up on you?

Yeah…good luck with that attitude when applying for any jobs; it will probably work just fine, just not like you think it should.