A good reason to not become a legitimate contractor...

[emahler]

Why is it that townships (particularly Construction Departments) do not work with contractors who do things the right way?

Perfect example...we just installed a sub-panel and a bunch of ceiling outlets and cord drops for one of our customers.

Put the permit in for the cord drops first...then added the sub-panel.

Township calls and says that the fee for the drops is $76 and the fee for the sub-panel is $77....total of $153.

Go to the customer and get a check for $153, bring it over to town hall, give it to the fat-ass, I mean lady, behind the counter.

This was Monday.

Today we get a call from the township that the fee for the sub-panel was actually $80 and that we need to give them $3 more. They won't issue the permit until the $3 is paid. Spoke with the construction official who is a failed contractor, and his attitude was,"i don't care, that's the price"

well here is the problem with this whole scenerio...it's not the $3...it's the $100+ that it's going to cost for someone to drive to the townhall and drop off the $3.

So, for anyone on here who is an inspector or a construction official...work with the contractors, realize that your decisions have direct impact on our P&L.

I am off to call the DCA (not sure it will do any good, but I'll feel better) and file a formal complaint.

Oh, and they don't have a posted permit fee schedule anyplace. You drop off the permit, then they call you in a week or so with the price.

Makes you want to drop your license and go bandit. They seem to spend more time hurting legitimate contractors than chasing illegitimate ones.

[celtic]

They seem to spend more time hurting legitimate contractors than chasing illegitimate ones.

There is more money to be made off a captive audience ;)

Pick up a pie, a tall glass of ice cold milk and tom'row will be a better day 8-)

[emahler]

There is more money to be made off a captive audience ;)

Pick up a pie, a tall glass of ice cold milk and tom'row will be a better day 8-)


If the construction official gets 4 flat tires on the way home, it'll be a better day.

[ITO]

It's for this very reason that I am nice to incompetent engineers, sooner or later they always seem to end up working for the city.

[emahler]

It's for this very reason that I am nice to incompetent engineers, sooner or later they always seem to end up working for the city.

That's the truth...It seems that every EI or CO in every town around here is a former (or current PT contractor) who took the job for the 'benefits'

It's not even retired contractors anymore..

what's that old saying "those that can't do, teach", well it seems that these days, in construction, it should be "those that can't do, inspect"

It's just frustrating....

[infinity]

Nice helps, sometimes. :rolleyes: Some of these people are the most miserable humans on earth. :mad:

[LarryFine]

Today we get a call from the township that the fee for the sub-panel was actually $80 and that we need to give them $3 more. They won't issue the permit until the $3 is paid. Spoke with the construction official who is a failed contractor, and his attitude was,"i don't care, that's the price"

well here is the problem with this whole scenerio...it's not the $3...it's the $100+ that it's going to cost for someone to drive to the townhall and drop off the $3.

How about offering him $10 if he'll lend you the $3 now.

[infinity]

what's that old saying "those that can't do, teach", well it seems that these days, in construction, it should be "those that can't do, inspect"

It's just frustrating....


It's funny, I was thinking about taking the inspectors' test next year.:grin:

[emahler]

It's funny, I was thinking about taking the inspectors' test next year.:grin:

I wasn't talking about you;) :D

[iwire]

How about offering him $10 if he'll lend you the $3 now.

Sounds like he could be arrested for attempted bribery. :grin:

[growler]

what's that old saying "those that can't do, teach", well it seems that these days, in construction, it should be "those that can't do, inspect"



Most of the inspectors that I know were at one time contractors and couldn't make it. It's not that they don't know how to do electrical work it's that they couldn't make a profit. Being a good electrician doesn't make a person a good contractor.

I think it would be safe to say that most inspectors were good enough electricians but very poor business men. :rolleyes:

[coulter]

It's for this very reason that I am nice to incompetent engineers, sooner or later they always seem to end up working for the city.
Hummm ... I envy you. I figure I may be working for them next year. I definitely follow your practice.

carl

[satcom]

well here is the problem with this whole scenerio...it's not the $3...it's the $100+ that it's going to cost for someone to drive to the townhall and drop off the $3

Why would you expect them to understand that concept, they most likely went for the inspection job, because they already failed at running a business. Not to say they are bad at electrical, most are exceptional in that area, it's the business end they lack the smarts.

The state is a bit backwards, in improving the permit process also, there are many ways to make it work better, for small jobs, they can have online applications, and online payments. I think the reason they don't, is our jersey politicians, believe employing more is better. (Hmmm, wonder why the state is in a constant deficit)

[480sparky]

Maybe that's why they didn't make it as an EC. They didn't know how to be efficient.

[satcom]

Maybe that's why they didn't make it as an EC. They didn't know how to be efficient.

It's not that their less efficient, here in Jersey, most inspectors preform well on the job, it's more the way the construction departments are operated, they need to follow state guide lines, and some departments are so small they have a difficult time budgeting and manning a department.

[infinity]

Sounds like he could be arrested for attempted bribery. :grin:


Aren't we talking about someone in Sopranoland?;)

[emahler]

Aren't we talking about someone in Sopranoland?;)

nah....i'm down the shore...Celtic's in Sopranoland....We're innocent down here...

[celtic]

nah....i'm down the shore...Celtic's in Sopranoland....We're innocent down here...

Voi dorimre con le pesce?

[satcom]

Just tell him Paulie is comming down with the check!

The easy way that could of been done, was to issue the permit at the new price, and when you came in to pick it up just pay the $3 Don't think all construction departments are like yours, most I have found, will work with contractor, sometimes the inspector can't help in payment areas, because he may have a power freak construction official, that enforces a hard line policy.

[emahler]

Just tell him Paulie is comming down with the check!

The easy way that could of been done, was to issue the permit at the new price, and when you came in to pick it up just pay the $3 Don't think all construction departments are like yours, most I have found, will work with contractor, sometimes the inspector can't help in payment areas, because he may have a power freak construction official, that enforces a hard line policy.

that was what we asked...response was "we can't issue the permit until it's paid"

i think it was the attitude more than anything else. There is a reason that there are stereotypes about inspectors, construction officials and the girls that work in the office...

[satcom]

that was what we asked...response was "we can't issue the permit until it's paid"

i think it was the attitude more than anything else. There is a reason that there are stereotypes about inspectors, construction officials and the girls that work in the office...

This is where the online permit filing would help, you file online, to a state operated central clearing house, the application would be priced then uploaded, to the city or town for approval. These uploaded applications for small jobs, should be able to be processed same day. It would not eliminate anyones job, just make the process flow better.
It's the same with the tax records, that can be automated along with the filing, if the city or town does not have automated tax records then manual filing can be done at a latter time.

[emahler]

or they could have a PRINTED PERMIT FEE SCHEDULE so that you just look it up and bring them a check...right now each town is it's own little fiefdom and dealing with them will drive you f'ing mad...there are 522 towns in the state, all of them have their own rules...tell me that makes sense.

[Davis9]

Hear you on the subject emahler. I had a job where when I went in to pay the permit fee, they came up with 3100.00. Seemed like alot of $$$ to me for a 43 unit building, mind you I did a 24 in a neighboring town for 550... So to make a long story short a couple weeks go by and I get a call from the Inspector, seems the counter person made a mistake, He would like an additional 18K. Unbelievable. I forwarded him to the Builder and something was worked out. I know it was more than I could imagine paying for it.

I couldn't believe it, Just glad it was worked out between them, at first the Insp thought I was trying to pull a fast one. I kind of felt bad for the counter person, for a second. Insp was berating him on the phone, get this, on his day off...

Tom

So the town wanted 21K for the Elec and 21K for the Building, made no sense to me as there are far fewer Elec inspections as far as I can tell. Justify the Job?

[wireman71]

I'm surprised you have to pay in person. How about over the phone with credit card or online?

[emahler]

I'm surprised you have to pay in person. How about over the phone with credit card or online?

because that would make sense and this is NJ...

[emahler]

Hear you on the subject emahler. I had a job where when I went in to pay the permit fee, they came up with 3100.00. Seemed like alot of $$$ to me for a 43 unit building, mind you I did a 24 in a neighboring town for 550... So to make a long story short a couple weeks go by and I get a call from the Inspector, seems the counter person made a mistake, He would like an additional 18K. Unbelievable. I forwarded him to the Builder and something was worked out. I know it was more than I could imagine paying for it.

I couldn't believe it, Just glad it was worked out between them, at first the Insp thought I was trying to pull a fast one. I kind of felt bad for the counter person, for a second. Insp was berating him on the phone, get this, on his day off...

Tom

So the town wanted 21K for the Elec and 21K for the Building, made no sense to me as there are far fewer Elec inspections as far as I can tell. Justify the Job?

$500 a unit? for what?

[Oakey]

FWIW I did a small $500 job recently in a local town and the fee was $53. Did a job at $10,000 in the same town and the fee was $64, cant figure it out fer nuttin'

[romexking]

In some jurisdictions in MD, we have to apply for the permit with the county, pay an exorbinant amount, about $1300 for a "Chili's" type restaurant, and then pay a private inspection agency to inpsect the job....their fee is "$15 less than what you paid the county". I can't imagine what the county was paid for doing.

[emahler]

is there anything we can do? who has oversight? we would be brought up before the board for unconciounable (sp?) business practices if we did what these townships do.

[bjp_ne_elec]

emahler - have you ever taken a few minutes to sit down with the local code enforcement officer of that township? I've made that a practice whenever I start work in a new town, and I find the 15 minutes spent well worth it. Up here in NH, you have to be careful, as each town my adapt slight modifications to the NEC. Just one town over from me they require the grounds in a JB to be crimped. I have to say, the town does have a two page document they hand out - one containing what they look for in an electrical inspection (that's where they mention crimping the grounds) and what the fees are.

I'd take some time, talk to the guy, and let us know how it goes. You might be surprised.

[bradleyelectric]

In some jurisdictions in MD, we have to apply for the permit with the county, pay an exorbinant amount, about $1300 for a "Chili's" type restaurant, and then pay a private inspection agency to inpsect the job....their fee is "$15 less than what you paid the county". I can't imagine what the county was paid for doing.

where is that?

[emahler]

emahler - have you ever taken a few minutes to sit down with the local code enforcement officer of that township? I've made that a practice whenever I start work in a new town, and I find the 15 minutes spent well worth it. Up here in NH, you have to be careful, as each town my adapt slight modifications to the NEC. Just one town over from me they require the grounds in a JB to be crimped. I have to say, the town does have a two page document they hand out - one containing what they look for in an electrical inspection (that's where they mention crimping the grounds) and what the fees are.

I'd take some time, talk to the guy, and let us know how it goes. You might be surprised.

we've been working in this town for almost 30 yrs without a problem. Know all the Electrical Inspectors. This was the construction official.

[Davis9]

$500 a unit? for what?


Still don't know.

Most other towns after doing some digging are 200 ish a unit for this type of project. You would think that the 1.2 million (est) in tax revenue this place creates the permit fees would be affordable...

Tom

[electricguy61]

Quoted a customer $140 for permits on a simple service change. That's what San Jose charged for the last one I did in that city 30 days ago. Pulled the permit on-line yesterday: $171. Fees went up Aug 11. Pulled permit in the County of Santa Clara for same work 2 miles away: $75!

I sympathize with the original poster. Often in government jobs you find people working in the office that would be fired for laziness, incompetence and lousy people skills in the private sector, but they have life-time employment in a government agency. Worst I found was pulling permits 20 years ago in Oklahoma City.

My wife works for a state agency, and the word is that you have to commit murder on 2 occasions to get fired: the first one gets you written up.:grin:

[480sparky]

My favorite is a city that has one fee. Twenty five bucks. They just built a 14 million dollar museum and the electrical permit was $25, same as I pay for a 10x10 sunroom.

[electricguy61]

My favorite is a city that has one fee. Twenty five bucks. They just built a 14 million dollar museum and the electrical permit was $25, same as I pay for a 10x10 sunroom.

Was the museum paid for with federal dollars, ie: pork?

[480sparky]

Was the museum paid for with federal dollars, ie: pork?

No. Local funds, donations, philanthropist contributions, etc. As I understand it, very little tax $ involved.

[JohnJ0906]

In some jurisdictions in MD, we have to apply for the permit with the county, pay an exorbinant amount, about $1300 for a "Chili's" type restaurant, and then pay a private inspection agency to inpsect the job....their fee is "$15 less than what you paid the county". I can't imagine what the county was paid for doing.

I think some jurisdictions on the Eastern Shore

[khixxx]

Emahler why do you write a letter to the editor of the local paper explaining that the City and counties inability to have a system to handle permits is why you have to charge so much for work. Hey it's free advertising if your letter gets published.

Oh,mmmmm yeah the permits and inspectors might not like that to much so future work might be a pain.

[cadpoint]

I'm surprised you have to pay in person. How about over the phone with credit card or online?

I thought why not pay via the US Postal Service, since your times important, besides that makes it a legal Binding act in itself.

[wireman71]

Just do the work. Pull the permit when you get time.. : )

[celtic]

I thought why not pay via the US Postal Service, since your times important, besides that makes it a legal Binding act in itself.

Interesting...but what would stop a malcontent desk jockey from just tossing the whole thing in the trash?

where is your proof you sent it?
where is your proof it was ever recieved?

Consider those questions and you will understand why USPS is not so "legally binding" and with the leg work invovled (and extra fees) is it really worth it?

[celtic]

Just do the work. Pull the permit when you get time.. : )

"Time" would only allow 3 days grace for an "emergency" here in NJ.

Q: If you can't do it now, when will you find time to do it?
A: You won't.

[charlie tuna]

in the words of mike holt "win the battle, but loose the war"! times changed for contractors in south florida due to the hurricanes, concerning inspectors! there was a time that an issue like the one listed above would be overlooked "next permit add three bucks" they might say.... if i needed a rough inspection on a particular job in a hurry i could call and get it over the phone -- now the job would be inspected the same day, but they could begin covering up before the inspector arrived! i could call and ask the inspector what time to expect him on a job and they could tell you + or - 30 minutes! back then i could go to the city on the way back from the supply house and get a permit in ten minutes, longest 30 minutes.... i went to a dinner meeting one night and the electrical chief sat across the table from me, i asked him "in your estimation, how much electrical work is accomplished without permits?" he told me "over fifty per cent!".

all this changed with time and hurricane issues. basically(from what i observed) there more inspectors with less knowledge of the trade, they had no respect for a contractor's time and and were uncontrolable. after the hurricanes, issues were raised due to improperly(or not) inspected buildings caused severe damage that they could be personnaly held responsible for work they inspected! that issue gave them a independence. their bosses could not rush them or pressure them in any way!!! what was the end result---- 80 per cent of the work was done without permits.

i once was sent back to a plans processor's office to get plans reviewed, when i got to his office ---- he was asleep----- with a coke in his hand. well, it wasn't a big job but i needed the permit to get the fire inspection! i sat there and waited for him to wake up. this happened at 2:00pm. as he woke up he got very upset that i was in his office!!! i explained " i was sent back!". he didn't want to hear that and took the plans and through them out the door as he slamed the door!! he did not know i was about to retire and wasn't worried about future problems with the inspection department!!! and the person who sent me back explained that he is in a "bad mood"! i went to the electrical chief and he immeadiately backed his inspector and told me "he was on lunch break"! i asked him to accompany me to the city manager's office and if necessary the mayor's office! he then explained "he was having problems with this guy". i told him "no problem, this plans processor is gonna get fired and your goning to back him?" at that point he got real serious and offered to approve anything i had come there for!!! i went out and got the person who sent me back to get the plans reviewed to confirm what had happened. the chief promised to look into the matter and take action!!! the plans processor was suspended for a week and returned to the field as an inspector!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! guess who inspected the same work that was on "those plans" --- you guessed it!!! but he didn't give me any problems.......... boy i was glad i was getting ready to retire!!!!

like mike holt says "win the battle, but loose the war".....

[khixxx]

As an X City worker I know our inspectors didn't get paid much. In WV I remember the Foreman having to drive to the inspectors house, Pick him up take him to the job, have a good bill of health take inspector back home. Inspectors car was broke. You would figure an inspector would make top dollar. I am sure some do.

[emahler]

As an X City worker I know our inspectors didn't get paid much. In WV I remember the Foreman having to drive to the inspectors house, Pick him up take him to the job, have a good bill of health take inspector back home. Inspectors car was broke. You would figure an inspector would make top dollar. I am sure some do.

no one forces them to become inspectors...but if you are going to be one, don't screw the contractors in the process...

[cowboyjwc]

OK enough bashing the inspector.

As an inspector, I don't issue permits or set the prices or take the money. I don't even really know the cost of a minimum fee permit. It's not my job. I don't care how much it costs and I'm not even sure how they come up with those costs. Yes the counter techs work for the same guy I do, so if you have a problem talk to the Building Official.

It's not my job to make sure you have a permit, that's your job.
It's not my job to issue you a permit, that's the counter techs job.
It's not my job to issue the inspection slip, that's the call centers job. (I don't call in the inspection requests, I don't take the inspection requests off the machine, I don't hand out the inpection requests in the morning. I don't have a little white sheet with your address on it, you don't have an inspection. Not my fault.)

My job is to inspect the work that you did to make sure that it complys to the code. Oh, wait, that's your job too.

By the way, we would eat the $3.00 here.

[emahler]

i don't think anyone was bashing inspectors...i know that I really wasn't trying to....my original point exactly what your post said, the pervasive attitude with construction departments around here (from construction official, to inspector, to girl in the window) is simply:

"That's not my job...that's not my problem...don't blame me"

I wish I could run my business that way and still keep customers.

[iwire]

I don't think he was bashing inspectors.



It's not my job to make sure you have a permit, that's your job.
It's not my job to issue you a permit, that's the counter techs job.
It's not my job to issue the inspection slip, that's the call centers job. (I don't call in the inspection requests, I don't take the inspection requests off the machine, I don't hand out the inspection requests in the morning. I don't have a little white sheet with your address on it, you don't have an inspection. Not my fault.)

But I think you proved his point....

The 'it's not my job' 'I don't give a rats behind', 'you ECs are all a pain in my rear' attitude gets old fast.

Your right, it's not your job, but it would be nice if you did not make my job more difficult if I have done noting wrong.

I have very few problems with the inspectors in my area, but the workers in the offices are often brutal to deal with. I go in to try to do the right thing and get treated like I have leprosy. No matter what the issue is (say they cashed my check but have no record of it) I am treated like a jerk.

[growler]

I wish I could run my business that way and still keep customers.


If you had a monopoly on electrical service you could. It's not like there is a lot of competition when it comes to issueing permits.

[emahler]

If you had a monopoly on electrical service you could. It's not like there is a lot of competition when it comes to issueing permits.

that would be sweet.....nah, don't call them for an inspection, they're a pain...call my guy instead...how awesome...

in lieu of that, I'll settle for the monopoly on the service side...how do I get everyone else to stop?

[celtic]

...how do I get everyone else to stop?

Money.

Pay 'em all to stay out of business.

[emahler]

Money.

Pay 'em all to stay out of business.

well, I'm just an EC, not a township, I can't afford that:D

[growler]

well, I'm just an EC, not a township, I can't afford that:D

I have always wanted to be like Marlon Brando and buy my own island but I don't think that's going to happen unless I get one of the discount models that was previously used for nuclear testing. One the positive side I wouldn't need electricity because everything glows in the dark.8-)

[cowboyjwc]

If you had a monopoly on electrical service you could. It's not like there is a lot of competition when it comes to issueing permits.
Actually a guy at the counter one day was getting a little out of hand, about this and that and the other and the Building Official finally told him that if he didn't like it he could go pull his permit somewhere else. The look on the guys face was priceless when he finally realized that wasn't going to happen.

And how many times do you guys think I've heard a contractor say "that's not in my contract"? But E is also right about one thing, one of our inspectors used to have a great line, he used to say that "we only beat up on the willing", we don't normally see the guys who don't pull permits.

Can't we all just get along?

[emahler]

I have always wanted to be like Marlon Brando and buy my own island but I don't think that's going to happen unless I get one of the discount models that was previously used for nuclear testing. One the positive side I wouldn't need electricity because everything glows in the dark.8-)

nah, what you do is declare war on a small 3rd world island that only has a small population of peaceful people. Then you simply torture a few and wait for the US to come and buy you off, send you whereever you want and pay for you to live the rest of your life.

then you can buy a better island.

Hey, worked for the dictators in Haiti

[emahler]

Actually a guy at the counter one day was getting a little out of hand, about this and that and the other and the Building Official finally told him that if he didn't like it he could go pull his permit somewhere else. The look on the guys face was priceless when he finally realized that wasn't going to happen.

And how many times do you guys think I've heard a contractor say "that's not in my contract"?

Can't we all just get along?

That was the point of my OP...work with the legitimate contractors, not against us...

[celtic]

....we don't normally see the guys who don't pull permits.



Then code enforcement isn't looking hard enough ;)

[emahler]

Then code enforcement isn't looking hard enough ;)


correct...when I pay $115 for someone to inspect a simple 200A resi service, there should be enough money in there for the inspectors to go hunting.

[cowboyjwc]

And I do.

No matter how I come across here in the posts, I am the one guy that most of the local contractors want to see on their jobs. I've had guys hold off finals until I come back.

I have acutally borrowed homeowners tools so that I could fix a problem rather than write a correction notice.

We are just over the hill from Los Angeles and we get many, many compliments on our staff and customer service, sure we have our problems, but usually when they are looked into it turns out not to be the big deal that it was made out to be. Oh and they are looked into our top brass is all about "customer service". :grin:

And OW, it's only $85 here for a service and I want to hunt Montana or did you mean to go hunting bad contractors?.

[emahler]

go hunt some banditos...make their lives miserable.

I can fully understand the frustration that many building departments go through..I know that in NJ, most of the money collected from permits goes into the general fund, not just the inspection department. I also understand that y'all catch a lot of guff from moron contractors. (yes, there are many contractors that should not be allowed in public.)

But man, for the normal ones...help us help you.

[celtic]

I have acutally borrowed homeowners tools so that I could fix a problem rather than write a correction notice.


WHY?

IF...something were to "happen" ~ who bears the liability/respsonsibility?


BTW, you'd look hot with this set of HO tools:
http://www.urbanjunkie.co.uk/shopimages/products/extras/chick%27s%20tool%20kit%20open%20230.jpg

LOL :grin:

[cowboyjwc]

Well it would take a whole new thread to explain why we can't (don't) go after illegal work (trespass laws, right of privacy laws, etc).

You have to know what you are capable of. I meant fixing something like a line and neutral reversed on a GFCI or a screw not tight on a breaker, something simple.

And besides if anything goes wrong I just lie. :roll:

[emahler]

what a great country. by following the laws i have less rights the doing things illegally. when did we just give up on common sense?

[coulter]

...common sense?Isn't that an oxymoron? If it was common then most everyone would have it.

carl

[480sparky]

Common Sense, aka C.S., lived a long life, but died from heart failure at the brink of the millennium. No one really knows how old he was, his birth records were long ago entangled in miles and miles of bureaucratic red tape.
Known affectionately to close friends as Horse Sense and Sound Thinking, he selflessly devoted himself to a life of service in homes, schools, hospitals and offices, helping folks get jobs done without a lot of fanfare, whooping and hollering. Rules and regulations and petty, frivolous lawsuits held no power over C.S.

A most reliable sage, he was credited with cultivating the ability to know when to come in out of the rain, the discovery that the early bird gets the worm and how to take the bitter with the sweet. C.S. also developed sound financial policies (don't spend more than you earn), reliable parenting strategies (the adult is in charge, not the kid) and prudent dietary plans (offset eggs and bacon with a little fiber and orange juice).

A veteran of the Industrial Revolution, the Great Depression, the Technological Revolution and the Smoking Crusades, C.S. survived sundry cultural and educational trends including disco, the men's movement, body piercing, whole language and new math.

C.S.'s health began declining in the late 1960s when he became infected with the If-It-Feels-Good, Do-It virus. In the following decades his waning strength proved no match for the ravages of overbearing federal and state rules and regulations and an oppressive tax code. C.S. was sapped of strength and the will to live as the Ten Commandments became contraband, criminals received better treatment than victims and judges stuck their noses in everything from Boy Scouts to professional baseball and golf. His deterioration accelerated as schools implemented zero-tolerance policies. Reports of 6-year-old boys charged with sexual harassment for kissing classmates, a teen suspended for taking a swig of Scope mouthwash after lunch, girls suspended for possessing Midol and an honor student expelled for having a table knife in her school lunch were more than his heart could endure.

As the end neared, doctors say C.S. drifted in and out of logic but was kept informed of developments regarding regulations on low-flow toilets and mandatory air bags. Finally, upon hearing about a government plan to ban inhalers from 14 million asthmatics due to a trace of a pollutant that may be harmful to the environment, C.S. breathed his last. Services will be at Whispering Pines Cemetery. C.S. was preceded in death by his wife, Discretion; one daughter, Responsibility; and one son, Reason. He is survived by two step-brothers, Half-Wit and Dim-Wit.

Memorial Contributions may be sent to the Institute for Rational Thought.

Farewell, Common Sense. May you rest in peace.

[celtic]

I'm gonna need a picture there Sparky :D

[480sparky]

http://hoover.archives.gov/exhibits/RevAmerica/3-When/5g.PamphletCommonSense.jpg

[iwire]

11 Minutes?

Your slipping sparky. :grin:

[480sparky]

Sorry, but I don't live here.:smile:

[emahler]

Sorry, but I don't live here.:smile:

some of us are here because of the sentencing:(

[iwire]

Sorry, but I don't live here.:smile:

Well at this point you keep your stuff here. :grin:

[480sparky]

some of us are here because of the sentencing:(

So when you eligible for parole?

Well at this point you keep your stuff here. :grin:

Do I need to start paying rent now???

[cowboyjwc]

I was watching a movie yesterday, I don't remeber the name (the one where Robin Williams is elected President).

He speaks about how hard it is to get back into the country when you've been away on vacation, yet every day hundreds of people come across our southern boader carring their sofas and other worldly goods.

Sorry E, I would love to tell you that it's different, but alas I am unable to.

By the way we've been gone for two weeks and my wife, who is a customer service supervisor was already called an a**hole before 9:00 this morning just because she couldn't give someone what they wanted.

Life is not always fair.

[emahler]

So when you eligible for parole?


i'm state property now :)

[emahler]

I was watching a movie yesterday, I don't remeber the name (the one where Robin Williams is elected President).

He speaks about how hard it is to get back into the country when you've been away on vacation, yet every day hundreds of people come across our southern boader carring their sofas and other worldly goods.

Sorry E, I would love to tell you that it's different, but alas I am unable to.

By the way we've been gone for two weeks and my wife, who is a customer service supervisor was already called an a**hole before 9:00 this morning just because she couldn't give someone what they wanted.

Life is not always fair.

cowboy, you miss my point completely...it's not about being fair...

it's about using common sense (which has been dead for a long time)

it's not about giving me what I want, or making my life easy by skimping on inspections, or bending over backwards to help me.

It's about doing your job honestly and fairly and not going out of your way to hurt the people who are legitimate and are trying to do it the right way.

it's about having the authority to walk onto an unpermitted job and stopping all work and assessing fines, because they are not following the rules.

It's about doing the right thing, not the easy or convenient thing.

[celtic]

i'm state property now :)
emahler is a ward of the State....I signed the papers.

http://www.state.nj.us/humanservices/pfnurse/images/woodbine-3.gif

Greystone Park Psychiatric Hospital (http://www.state.nj.us/humanservices/pfnurse/greystone.htm)

[iwire]

i'm state property now :)

Dude...congratulations.....free health and dental care.:grin:

[emahler]

yes I am...

and also 3 hots and a cot...and the good drugs...

[celtic]

yes I am...

and also 3 hots and a cot...and the good drugs...
Not to mention the awesome jacket:
http://www.meetthegeeks.org/files/uploads/aston/aston4/StraightJacket.jpg

EDIT TO ADD:
I don't know if that is a "ball gag" or an apple....and I don't want to know!
:D

[emahler]

less stress....don't have to worry about what i'm gonna wear each day...

edit to add - i vote apple...

[celtic]

....don't have to worry about what i'm gonna wear each day...



LMAO

That was good :)

[khixxx]

What is this common sense you speak of? It must be before my time.

As a former city employee it's all politics. You do as upper management says even if it is wrong morally. At the end of the budget year we would spend to make the budget $0 or close to it. $30k left in the budget "What tools does Kenneth want today"? The only way to cure the epidemic of government is to privatize the organization, that way you can have competition for a lower budget and performance.


I think everyone needs to serve in the marines for 2 years after high school.

[George Stolz]

By the way we've been gone for two weeks and my wife, who is a customer service supervisor was already called an a**hole before 9:00 this morning just because she couldn't give someone what they wanted.

Life is not always fair.
Well, I had to do something, you never redeemed that beer. :D

[cowboyjwc]

Yeah sorry about that George. Taking the whole family on a vacation is like hearding cats.

The day we were going to go up to Cheyenne one of the granddaughters got sick. We thought it would pass hoped in the truck and headed up that way and she did it again, so we decided that it wasn't such a good idea to try.

Since we had everything planned so tight we just didn't have the time to reschedule the trip.

You guys sure have pretty lightning up there.

E, I got your point just fine. We just got a house demoed here in town that had been a problem for years. Time to demo? 1 day. Time it took to get house demoed? 10 years.

How frustrating do you think that is for us? Reports and court apperences and inspection warrents and inspection time for a nonpermitted job. Yet you pull a permit and I can shut you down for as long as it take to get the job into compliance.

That was the point of the moment in the movie. I was born here, I have a passport, but becasue I got a hair cut since that picture I'm standing in line here for 2 hours and yet I could just cross the lower boarder in a matter of minutes if I did it illlegly.

[brian john]

I have had a few inspectors tell me over the years, "Look I use to be a contractor. yada, yada, yada."

All I want to say is the key word in that statement is USE TO BE, probably a good reason you are still not a contractor.

Many of the building departments do not work with contractors, making jobs impossible. We have one jurisdiction where average permit wait is a 4 hours and the permit specialists (that's their title) are looking for any excuse to send you away without a permit. "Oh sir you dotted the "I" with black ink you need red ink."

[emahler]

beuracracy in wash dc? say it ain't so....

[cowboyjwc]

Wow, Brian if I lived where you lived I wouldn't want to be a contractor either. Average wait time here 20 minutes. Approx. 6000 permits issued last year. 10 day plancheck turnaround. Next day inspection and if you call in the morning we'll give you a two hour window and maybe down to the exact time if we are able.

And enough with the can't hack it as a contractor so they become an inspector. Some of us have our reasons. I threw my back out when I was 17 (I'm 49) and I can throw it out just tying my shoes, so it was just getting to harder and harder for me to put on the tools and put in the kind of day that I was used to putting in.

Many of you do not know that it is almost harder to get certified as an inspetor now than it is to become a contractor. You take your test here in CA and then send in your check every 2 years and they renew your license. As an inspector I also have to take a test, I also have to send in a check every two years, and take another test and certify that I have at least 53 training hours. I have to know the NEC as well as parts of the UBC and in Ca we have Title 24 which we must enforce, which is 3 books about the size of the NEC. I have to take Post Disaster Assessment training as well as First Responder traing at least every two years. I am in the previous code book as well as the current code book and the one coming up since I have jobs that are still under to old, jobs in the current and it is my job to train staff on the upcoming. We worked 16 hours a day, 7 days a week for 4 weeks after the '94 earthquake. We work just as hard as you do and I know just as much as I am also a C-10. Just becasue we don't run our own business doesn't mean that we don't know what we're doing. Trust me that pendulim swings both ways.

Ok, I've vented. So how's your day? :grin:

[satcom]

I have had a few inspectors tell me over the years, "Look I use to be a contractor. yada, yada, yada."

All I want to say is the key word in that statement is USE TO BE, probably a good reason you are still not a contractor.

Many of the building departments do not work with contractors, making jobs impossible. We have one jurisdiction where average permit wait is a 4 hours and the permit specialists (that's their title) are looking for any excuse to send you away without a permit. "Oh sir you dotted the "I" with black ink you need red ink."

Brian,

All our inspectors, come from a contracting background, most are very good at electrical work, some even excell at it, and their code knowladge is usually above average, or pretty good also, we must be lucky to have a large number of good inspectores here in New Jersey, that said most of them will admit, they had a rough time in business, and it was not usually their lack of paying attention to business matters, but the enviroment they had to work in, that being trying to run a ligit business, in a wild wild west, of hackers, low ballers, trunk slammers, and part time moonlighters, all under pricing jobs, for less then a ligt contractor could operate.

That said, you would think they could understand our needs, and work to improve the permit process, and work with us, to bring about enforcement of non permited work, and un licensed work. If laws are on the books, they need to be enforced, or the wild wild west enviroment, will continue to thrive.

[brian john]

Not to dump more on the local government (and developers), but the naming of streets drives me crazy sometimes. We have roads that change name 2 and 3 times. Has been going on for ever one road has 4 names. Often it is not just the county but the developer changing the name to something MORE PLESANT. Like from "Woods rd" to the "Sanctuary at the Pretty Reserve" (OK so I went over the top here but you get the idea?).

This makes doing service difficult, Though the GPS has minimized this somewhat.

[satcom]

Not to dump more on the local government (and developers), but the naming of streets drives me crazy sometimes. We have roads that change name 2 and 3 times. Has been going on for ever one road has 4 names. Often it is not just the county but the developer changing the name to something MORE PLESANT. Like from "Woods rd" to the "Sanctuary at the Pretty Reserve" (OK so I went over the top here but you get the idea?).

This makes doing service difficult, Though the GPS has minimized this somewhat.

Cheer up Brian!

I know exactly what your saying, take a drive to Inspectors Grove, make a right off AHJ Drive, then procees to Hackers Blvd, turn right on Moonlighter Road, then proceed half mile to Trunk Slammer Hill, make first left and proceed to Low Baller Circle, look for first house on left, 2 story 6000sq ft Mc Mansion owners name on lamp post, Mr Hacker.

Our town names new streets after those, that gave the ultmate for us, so not all cities, and towns, are out in space.

[andinator]

Not to dump more on the local government (and developers), but the naming of streets drives me crazy sometimes. We have roads that change name 2 and 3 times. Has been going on for ever one road has 4 names. Often it is not just the county but the developer changing the name to something MORE PLESANT. Like from "Woods rd" to the "Sanctuary at the Pretty Reserve" (OK so I went over the top here but you get the idea?).

This makes doing service difficult, Though the GPS has minimized this somewhat.


I hear ya brother, ATL, GA has got to be the worst in the nation.

[cowboyjwc]

In the Los Angeles area we have the streets that change names too, usually due to a development built in between two streets and I guess you have to call it something. We have one street that runs about twenty miles in one block increments, drive a block then it dead ends, go around a block and there it is again. Or the ones that stop and then start five miles later. And then there's the ones that curve so hard that the addresses have to change and can be off by a thousand. Makes it really fun when you "think" you know were you're going.

By the way many of us do care, but we all have a boss and sometimes our hands are tied. I can no more change the price of a permit than you could change the price of a job your boss bid on. Most, if not all, of our inspectors come from a construction backround, but that's not necessaly true for the counter staff or even some of the building officials. What I might want to allow and what the BO will let me, might be two entirerly different things.

I always work with the contractors, mostly because I've become lazy and hate to write correction notices, but write them I will if it's necessary. Remember I get paid weather I write you a correction notice or sign your job card, doesn't really make any difference to me. I just got back from a job a couple of minutes ago and the guy knew the correct answer to every correction I wrote him. If he knew the answer then why didn't he just do it right the first time?

[dlhoule]

that would be sweet.....nah, don't call them for an inspection, they're a pain...call my guy instead...how awesome...

in lieu of that, I'll settle for the monopoly on the service side...how do I get everyone else to stop?

That's easy enough. If your lowest cost competitor charges $500 you charge $250. Pretty soon you won't have any competition.

I might add that you will have to have some pretty deep pockets to stay in business.:wink:

[dlhoule]

Hey guys, If it weren't for one particular inspector who took the time to mentor me, I would still be complaining about all of the inspectors. As it is there are good, bad, and indifferent inspectors just as there are in any line of work.

Now if I could just find any politicians who I could consider to be good; I would be happy.:)

[khixxx]

Usually it's not the inspectors choice to act the way they do. Management tends to have influences.

[wagge]

In Houston we do all permits online, they base the fee from a fee schedule. I think they were to cheap but have raised them recently.

Most of the inspectors are good guys stuck in a Ferris wheels so to speak. One of my best friends is the assistant chief, and while we take Harley trips all over the country I usually do not involve him in my issues, I generally will take it up with one of the seniors or the chief.

I also try without exception to meet all my inspectors for inspection, and yes I do budget this in my price. It has made a huge difference, for one I never get turned down and I develop a good re pore with the inspectors. I think we have around 40 field inspectors. OK now I am rambling, anyway you can't beat the system ( legally) so I try hard to work with it

[g@friendly]

That is great! I have been wanting to do my permit online like that for the longest time. Ther is a service that I wish my whole state would do that so this way we would have the same form. I currently have to look up what form to give to who.

[celtic]

That is great! I have been wanting to do my permit online like that for the longest time. Ther is a service that I wish my whole state would do that so this way we would have the same form. I currently have to look up what form to give to who.
The forms are (at the very least *should* be) all the same from city to city:

http://www.state.nj.us/njbusiness/license/permits/construct/forms.shtml


On the BOTTOM, LEFT: http://www.state.nj.us/dca/codes/
See the "Uniform Construction Code Forms" box?


Don't hold your breath on the "online" submittal of forms, though...

[resistance]

All I can say is that our company is working hard to pay a large % of our money towards taxes, and insurance.
It's not easy being a legitimate small business ( for many reasons)!


Short Story:
We completed all the rough and trim work for a customer who was very happy about the work we did. When it came down to getting their final inspection, the customer was no-where to be found, so the inspector called me (not something they would normally do) and told me that we would have to reschedule the inspection--which I found to be fair. Well, an hour later the customer calls me, and I explained to him that the inspection would have to be re-scheduled due to his absence. The customer had a fit! He started using foul language, demanding that I make the inspector come back. I told him that it was out of my hands, and he could get the inspection the next day. He yelled, and told me he would call and demand the inspector to come back, then hung up the phone on me. After that, I was pissed! I called the electrical inspector (he actually gave me his #<--not normal.),and explained the situation. The inspector told me he couldn't turn around , because he was too far away. I told him don’t worry about it, then added, "I do not want my customer scheduling his own inspection until I get paid. The inspector told me he had no control over who calls in for inspections. I told him fine, and called the main office (This is where all the bull comes in). I told them the situation, and explained that I was the permit holder, and I did not want any inspections, unless we call for an inspection. The State office then says, “We have no control over who calls for inspection. “ So I asked, "what the heck is the purpose of me getting a permit, If I have no control over how it's handled." The State rep says, too bad. we can't do anything for you. I said, fine. Forget it! Later the state calls me back, and says, " we can cancel your permit, and put a note on it--telling the inspector to report to the electrical inspector supervisor before doing any inspections on the permit." The State rep explained that the note would say this: Do not do any inspections, unless our company calls for inspection. Well, a week later the inspection was passed, and concluded. I then called and asked how the heck did they get an inspection. The State department told me nothing! I called the electrical inspector, and he told me, that the homeowner pulled there own permit, and got an inspection? Still????????????????????? I voided their warranty!

By the way, the customer did not work, and had unlimited money--this should speak on the attitude of getting what they want when they want it!

They paid me a week after that, but this further leaves you to question the legitimacy of the legitimate contractor. No power, no purpose! The ill-legitimate could have had the home owner pull the permit, and did the work---while making a much better profit without the hassle from the state, Taxes, and customer.

[Davis9]

Resistance, Next time schedule the inspection for a month or two out. Maybe that will work. Just thinking if an inspection was already scheduled, they(govt) may not issue a new inspection time.

Tom:)