old job comes back to haunt [Archive]

ishium 80439

10-24-2007, 04:21 PM

Hello,

I've been lurking here for a while and a few years ago had an account but it dissappeared into the ether. I had a situation pop up that I would like some input on.

I came up in the trade in SW CT. Almost every residential service I had a part in installing used SEU and when necessary (ie meter/ main with a panel inside) SER. I now live/ work in the Denver area where SE cable is all but non-existent. Two years ago I did a job that involved installing a subpanel for a basement finish. I used SER from the main panel (located on the exterior of the home), ran a few feet down to basement level, penetrated the wall and ran to my sub.

Fast forward to 2 weeks ago when I got a call from the HO saying she finally got around to her basement finish and there was a problem with my install. Basically the inspector didn't like it. After sending her the link for the UL standard for SER construction (at first the insp. said it wasn't OK to use outside), she came back with it wasn't physically protected.

I have had so many jobs almost identical to this one inspected, I never even thought about it, however I think she may have me with 225.20 and 230.50. So I have two questions: First is it just a regional difference that I never had to protect SE cable before? And second what would you say to an HO that is complaining about a job that is 2 yrs old (esp. after she cut me out of the remodel)? (BTW, it was never inspected originaly b/c the basement was supposed to be finished out on the heels of the sub install and I figured they would get inspected at the same time.)

Thanks in advance for your input.

stickboy1375

10-24-2007, 05:53 PM

I'm only going to answer the question about protection from physical damage, I live/work in Connecticut, and we never protect the SEU/SER, and it is the norm. around here, BUT... everywhere else is different, so I guess you need to know what they want where you are working...

SmithBuilt

10-24-2007, 06:13 PM

I used SER from the main panel (located on the exterior of the home), ran a few feet down to basement level, penetrated the wall and ran to my sub.

A few feet down as in close to the ground? I might can understand needing protection.

(BTW, it was never inspected originaly b/c the basement was supposed to be finished out on the heels of the sub install and I figured they would get inspected at the same time.)

That may be some of the problem. Was a permit pulled?

petersonra

10-24-2007, 06:26 PM

Since all you need to do is protect it from physical damage, it should not be all that hard to build a box around it out of treated lumber for the few feet it is exposed.

maybe just a treated 2x4 with a slot cut in the back lengthwise for the cable.

peter d

10-24-2007, 06:56 PM

As I was born and raised in "Cable Land" (New England) I don't understand the whole physical damage issue other parts of the country have with cable methods including SEU/R.

stickboy1375

10-24-2007, 06:58 PM

As I was born and raised in "Cable Land" (New England) I don't understand the whole physical damage issue other parts of the country have with cable methods including SEU/R.

Ditto... I just hate the callbacks for damaged SEU.SER cable... :grin: :grin: :grin:

stickboy1375

10-24-2007, 07:01 PM

Just for fun facts, the ONLY time I see a SEU/SER cable get damaged is when a PHONE/CATV/SATELLITE installer decides to drill a 12" pilot bit from inside out without looking first....

mdshunk

10-24-2007, 07:05 PM

Other than the effects of time and the elements, I have yet to personally see an SEU or SER damaged by other influences.

Jljohnson

10-24-2007, 07:49 PM

Other than the effects of time and the elements, I have yet to personally see an SEU or SER damaged by other influences.

Neither have I, but I live and work in Northern Colorado...the land of physical protection. I don't think the OP will find a way out of providing the protection for the cable. I don't want to start the debate again, it's just the way it is around here. Good luck and welcome to Colorado.

growler

10-24-2007, 08:11 PM

Two years ago I did a job that involved installing a subpanel for a basement finish. I used SER from the main panel (located on the exterior of the home), ran a few feet down to basement level, penetrated the wall and ran to my sub.

Every thing sounds good except for the fact that you didn't finish up the job with a permit and an inspection ( 2 years ago ).

I always get an inspection on a sub panel for a basement finish. Why? I'm pretty sure that when it's a seperate job that I'm not getting the basement ( handyman time ) and I want a record of what work I actually did.

The inspector may not like it that you didn't get an inspection, they have a job to protect to. And cheating him out of his bribe money doesn't go over well either.:D

electricmanscott

10-24-2007, 08:12 PM

hardworkingstiff

10-24-2007, 08:17 PM

....... And cheating him out of his bribe money doesn't go over well either.:D

ouch !

cschmid

10-24-2007, 08:18 PM

I believe the issue is sub-panel: here you would have to provide physical protection of the wires. as far as time frame I believe you going out there to put physical protection on them; which is cheaper doing the work or the time involved with law suit..Only complaint you stated is your work did not pass and I would talk to inspector and make sure it is only your work you are responsible for..not since you touched it make it all right..

220/221

10-24-2007, 08:25 PM

Out here we don't run exposed cable. I always assumed it was code until I started reading forums like this and found out that it is acceptable in a LOT of places.

It doesn't seem safe to me with all the weed eaters, kids and animals chewing up things.

It's a 240 volt, 100/200 amp extension cord!

ishium 80439

10-24-2007, 08:25 PM

Without doubt not pulling a permit/ getting it inspected was a large error. Live and learn. At the time I believed the HO regarding the scheduling of the finish. What's that phrase used car guys have? "Buyers are liars". I'm resigned to the fact that something needs to be done to appease the insp but at this point I just want to tell the HO to have her current "electrician" take care of it (PVC sleeve) and back charge me. I have a feeling that the guy who did the wiring will have that special deer-in-the-headlights look. Perhaps at that point she may realize why we get paid to do what we do.

The combination of no permit originally and unfamiliar material has put this in a place that there is no easy way out of. I worked in CT for 6 yrs PT and 7 yrs FT and echo the sentiment that I have never personally seen an issue w/ SEU/SER getting damaged. In the 7 yrs I've been in CO every service I've done has had a conduit riser. Cest la vie

cschmid

10-24-2007, 08:33 PM

it was new to me as well here you cover every think that is exposed period..

stickboy1375

10-24-2007, 08:37 PM

It doesn't seem safe to me with all the weed eaters, kids and animals chewing up things.

It's a 240 volt, 100/200 amp extension cord!

Nope not one death yet... ;)

growler

10-24-2007, 08:40 PM

It doesn't seem safe to me with all the weed eaters, kids and animals chewing up things.

I don't think I have ever seen a kid chewing on a service cable. Must be the lead paint, stop useing it.

In reality I normally run a rigid mast and I probably would have protected this cable with rigid or PVC. Not because it's really necessary but I like for a job to look good and for people to think they are getting a quality product. I like rigid because it's easy to paint to match the siding and it looks solid.

peter d

10-24-2007, 08:45 PM

I like rigid because it's easy to paint to match the siding and it looks solid.

If you used rigid for a service here (other than a mast service), everyone would laugh at you. :D Well, ok, maybe not laugh out loud but you would get some funny looks. It just isn't done. :)

growler

10-24-2007, 09:01 PM

If you used rigid for a service here (other than a mast service), everyone would laugh at you. :)

They probably laugh at me here to but you would be surprised how many homeowners that are impressed. If you are going to charge top money you have to have something to sell. Brant uses solder and I use rigid. No one can see the solder.

When the neighbors come over to check out the job ( and they always do) I like for things to look very functional. Rigid has that last forever look.
Cable tends to have a more temporary look.

Let'm Laugh.

peter d

10-24-2007, 09:29 PM

Let'm Laugh.

No worries. I was just pointing out how different things are in different parts of the country. Out west, their breaker panels are outside. Talk about weird! ;) :D

Davis9

10-24-2007, 10:48 PM

LarryFine

10-25-2007, 01:56 AM

Here in Va we also use service cable exposed. It's only considered in danger of damage when next to a driveway and the like.

Minuteman

10-25-2007, 02:04 AM

No worries. I was just pointing out how different things are in different parts of the country. Out west, their breaker panels are outside. Talk about weird! ;) :D
Yep, about half the resi panels I install are outside. And you would have a hard time buying SE cable or anything like it here.

cschmid

10-25-2007, 08:45 AM

I suppose if it is rate for outdoor use..but here were it get fourty below zero no one wants to go outside to reset the breakers..

ishium 80439

10-25-2007, 10:30 AM

To all of you East coast guys, I came up witht the same mind set and did this installation confident that there was no problem with it as it would have passed inspection in any of the jusrisdictions I worked in there. However how do you address 225.20 which refers you to 230.50?
Also from a business point of view what do all of you think is the path of least resistance to get this resolved with an HO that obviously has no intention of using me again? As I stated earlier I think that just having some else do it and back charge me will cost me the least amount of money in the long run (this job is kind of far from my office in an area of the metro area I don't work in anymore unless the job is large enough)and just write this one off as lesson learned.

Thanks for all of the input

electricmanscott

10-25-2007, 11:04 AM

I don't know that I would want to leave my violation correction on someone elses hands.

SmithBuilt

10-25-2007, 11:12 AM

230.50 (A) is clear "where subject to physical damage"

You said the conductors go down toward the basement on the exterior wall. How close to the ground did you run them? Can a lawn mower hit them. I think some here are talking about overhead coming into the top of the meter not at ground level. IMO you have to protect conductors that are close to the ground.

I generally don't like another contractor working on my jobs. Remember your still liable. Not to mention they may bad mouth you to the HO. I say bite the bullet and go fix the problem, but I don't know your situation.

kkwong

10-25-2007, 11:18 AM

http://cableorganizer.com/surface-raceways/wire-guards.htm

Maybe some strategically placed U-Guard?

Tom

I like to use this stuff on the lower side of a meter socket when using SE Cable. When I use it(SE).

Tom:smile:

Darn it, Tom! You beat me to it!! Seriously though, I have used this to protect anything that an overly paranoid HO or AHJ wants protected...IMC in a barn for example...

jaylectricity

10-25-2007, 09:37 PM

I'm resigned to the fact that something needs to be done to appease the insp but at this point I just want to tell the HO to have her current "electrician" take care of it (PVC sleeve) and back charge me. I have a feeling that the guy who did the wiring will have that special deer-in-the-headlights look. Perhaps at that point she may realize why we get paid to do what we do.

If there is an inspector involved, why would the current electrician have a deer-in-the-headlights look? Sounds like he pulled a permit and he's only insisting that it is not his problem, it is yours.

I'm not trying to insult you for the situation, I'm just saying that you should pay for him to do the work if you don't or can't do it and there isn't really a problem here other than costing you a little money for a mistake that is completely understandable.

My only concern is that the current electrician may want to pull your cable out to install piping instead of finding a quick but reasonable fix.

ishium 80439

10-26-2007, 09:24 AM

[QUOTE][why would the current electrician have a deer-in-the-headlights look? /QUOTE]

I'm fairly convinced that it is a homeowners permit with a handyman doing the work. Based on context clues from the HO, the current electrical installer seems intimidated by the concept of playing with the subfeed.
In the long run, after reading comments here, especially those of you who brought up the concept of other people putting their hands on work I still own, I contacted the HO and told her I would protect it. I think I'll try that U-guard. Thank you Davis9. Thanks to everyone who took time to comment.

hillbilly

10-26-2007, 12:21 PM

In reality I normally run a rigid mast and I probably would have protected this cable with rigid or PVC. Not because it's really necessary but I like for a job to look good and for people to think they are getting a quality product. I like rigid because it's easy to paint to match the siding and it looks solid.

Me too.

In the past, I used SE cable for the service.

Now....If the service drop is going to be attached to the house, I use sch. 40 PVC conduit, weather head and (Aluminum) USE cable for the service riser.

If the drop is going to be supported by the mast, I use 2 1/2" rigid steel (or IMC) conduit, weather head and USE cable.

I don't have a problem with SE cable, I just think that conduit looks more professional.....and it doesn't cost much more....just a opinion.

As far as the OP's problem. I would bite the bullet, take care of the problem personally, and try to greet and leave the customer with a smile.....:smile:
No use to burn any bridges...unless it's already burned.
Might save you some "bad mouthing".

Just my opinion.
steve

Davis9

10-26-2007, 07:25 PM

Good luck with it. I goes in easy anyways. Shouldn't take too long. Make sure you get your inspection right away.

Tom

satcom

10-26-2007, 07:32 PM

Good luck with it. I goes in easy anyways. Shouldn't take too long. Make sure you get your inspection right away.

Tom

Lesson learned, get inspections, as soon as jobs are completed!

iaov

10-28-2007, 12:35 AM

I don't think I have ever seen a kid chewing on a service cable. Must be the lead paint, stop useing it.

In reality I normally run a rigid mast and I probably would have protected this cable with rigid or PVC. Not because it's really necessary but I like for a job to look good and for people to think they are getting a quality product. I like rigid because it's easy to paint to match the siding and it looks solid.
I always put put SE cables in conduit. It does look much more professional and it will stop the children from knawing on it. Without conduit it realy is just 240 volt extension cord!

iwire

10-28-2007, 04:45 AM

I always put put SE cables in conduit. It does look much more professional and it will stop the children from knawing on it. Without conduit it realy is just 240 volt extension cord!

I ripped the industrial looking RMC off of my house and installed SE.

IMO it looks much better then the RMC did.

iaov

10-28-2007, 09:16 AM

I ripped the industrial looking RMC off of my house and installed SE.

IMO it looks much better then the RMC did. Its probably the old industrial electrician in me that feels compelled to put everything in conduit.

cschmid

10-28-2007, 09:21 AM

I am pipe man I even use pvc instead of UF at my own place.. I use pvc every time I can get away with it it is a cheap as UF and has more options then..

iwire

10-28-2007, 09:23 AM

Its probably the old industrial electrician in me that feels compelled to put everything in conduit.

I enjoy running pipe and can appreciate a well done job.

But I don't want to see it on the side of my home. :)

iwire

10-28-2007, 09:27 AM

I am pipe man I even use pvc instead of UF at my own place.. I use pvc every time I can get away with it it is a cheap as UF and has more options then..

About the only place I run PVC is buried in the earth, if I can't run cable it will be steel raceway of some type.

In my area PVC exposed often looks like garbage a few years after installation.

cschmid

10-28-2007, 09:42 AM

About the only place I run PVC is buried in the earth, if I can't run cable it will be steel raceway of some type.

In my area PVC exposed often looks like garbage a few years after installation.

I agree with that statement: PVC in the earth and up side of rural light pole. short piece here and there is okay but limited use..I only go to box on pole and change to metal after that..