Refridgerator Power

[wirenut25]

Does anyone use a dedicated HR for a fridge?

[boboelectric]

I always bid it.

[raider1]

Does anyone use a dedicated HR for a fridge?

I typically do.

Chris

[celtic]

Does anyone use a dedicated HR for a fridge?

I offer the "option" to the customer....for additional dead president's.

[LawnGuyLandSparky]

15 amp or 20 amp?

[celtic]

15 amp or 20 amp?

Please let the OP answer this guys!

:wink:

[brantmacga]

i have dedicated fridge, microwave, and dw lines.

>>> meant to say i "install" dedicated. . .

[LawnGuyLandSparky]

i have dedicated fridge, microwave, and dw lines.

Oh, a Rockerfeller!

[480sparky]

I always do the 2 SABCs, plus dedicated 20s for the fridge, micro, dishwasher & disposal & dining room. Lighting is always seperate.

[peter d]

I usually put the fridge on a dedicated 15, or on the SABC.

The dishwasher and disposal will both go on one 15.

[Cavie]

.

The dishwasher and disposal will both go on one 15.

You might want to rethink that one. Final inspection is no time to have to run a circuit to that location.

[growler]

Went to a house today where they didn't believe in wasting money on extra circuits. The have 2 refrigerators ( one kitchen, one pantry ), 2 disposals ( one kitchens and one prep area ) , two dish washers ( one kitchen , one prep area ) , a microwave ( 1200 watt ) and all the counter top receptacles all on two circuits wired in #14. The circuits are connected to a double pole 30 Amp. breaker in the panel.


The homeowner suspects that the people that did the remodel may not have got a permit or inspection.

They do however have the expensive granite counter tops, one of the refrigerators is a sub zero, and the range is viking.

It's amazing what you can afford when you don't waste money on needless electrical circuits. If the house doesn't burn down they are in great shape.

This is just one of those little problems that turn up and not what I went on the service call for.

[peter d]

You might want to rethink that one. Final inspection is no time to have to run a circuit to that location.

Why? Are you saying that this installation should fail an inspection?

I've already put plenty of thought, as well as actual installation experience into this. Let's look at the logic here.

Dishes get "pre-cleaned" first. Stuff gets scraped off and into the disposal. The disposal runs for a few seconds. Dishwasher gets loaded then turned on.

Where is the problem?

[bkludecke]

I always do the 2 SABCs, plus dedicated 20s for the fridge, micro, dishwasher & disposal & dining room. Lighting is always seperate.

That's how we do it also. BTW this is a minimum for us. In the big kitchens we may have a couple more SABCs + other circuits for the warming drawers, veggy frig, wine refer, etc......

[celtic]

I always do ... dedicated 20s for the fridge,...

Why?

What type fridges require a 20A line?

[480sparky]

That's how we do it also. BTW this is a minimum for us. In the big kitchens we may have a couple more SABCs + other circuits for the warming drawers, veggy frig, wine refer, etc......

Me to!

Here's a kitchen & family room bar I did last year:

http://i214.photobucket.com/albums/cc172/480sparky/DSC04981a.jpg

http://i214.photobucket.com/albums/cc172/480sparky/DSC04982a.jpg

Why?

What type fridges require a 20A line?

These

http://i214.photobucket.com/albums/cc172/480sparky/DSC04980a.jpg

Kitchen has 3 SABCs, dedicated 20s for the dishwasher, disposal (none was installed, but it's there) , fridge, freezer (matching Vikings), micro and dining room. There's alsoa 40a 240v circuit for the oven.

http://i214.photobucket.com/albums/cc172/480sparky/DSC04909a.jpg

Bar has two SABCs as well as a ded. 20 for the dorm fridge and vino chiller.

[Cavie]

Why? Are you saying that this installation should fail an inspection?

I've already put plenty of thought, as well as actual installation experience into this. Let's look at the logic here.

Dishes get "pre-cleaned" first. Stuff gets scraped off and into the disposal. The disposal runs for a few seconds. Dishwasher gets loaded then turned on.

Where is the problem?
Lots of 11 amp dishwahsers around here. Doesn't leave much for a disposol. Ad 'em up and poof!

[Denis]

fridge on separate, for when the power goes out and the generator has to run for xxx days

[bkludecke]

Why?

What type fridges require a 20A line?

Big ones. Out here the large custom homes have 2-3 of 'em. Sub Zeros with a 5-20 cord cap and 20amp circuit requirement. After you add the circuits on a couple of new homes you start puttin' 'em in at rough to cover your a**.

[celtic]

Big ones. Out here the large custom homes have 2-3 of 'em. Sub Zeros with a 5-20 cord cap and 20amp circuit requirement. After you add the circuits on a couple of new homes you start puttin' 'em in at rough to cover your a**.
This batch of Sub-Zero's you speak of must be new...newer than 06-24-2007...
Awhile back this question came up here ~ 20A vs. 15A for the refridge (or something similar). I checked just about ALL the install pdf.s at the sub-zero site....not one required/recommended/suggested a 20A line - but rather a 15A.

So why use a 20A? #7 (http://forums.mikeholt.com/showpost.php?p=695646&postcount=7) from Refridgerator - seperate circuit? (http://forums.mikeholt.com/showthread.php?t=87772&highlight=sub-zero)



I did some independant research over here in post #30 (http://forums.mikeholt.com/showpost.php?p=672363&postcount=30) from Refrigerators in residential units (http://forums.mikeholt.com/showthread.php?t=85434&highlight=sub-zero)
After looking at EVERY model listed at the site (www.subzero.com) (http://www.subzero.com%29), I arrived at the conclusion that NO Sub-Zero REQUIRES a 20A ckt.

[LawnGuyLandSparky]

Me to!

Here's a kitchen & family room bar I did last year:

http://i214.photobucket.com/albums/cc172/480sparky/DSC04981a.jpg



Isn't it amazing how much it costs to get the "rustic look?" :grin:

[Rewire]

Why? Are you saying that this installation should fail an inspection?

I've already put plenty of thought, as well as actual installation experience into this. Let's look at the logic here.

Dishes get "pre-cleaned" first. Stuff gets scraped off and into the disposal. The disposal runs for a few seconds. Dishwasher gets loaded then turned on.

Where is the problem?
The circuit should be sized for connected load,think thanksgiving dinner prep with dishwasher running to clean pots and disposer on for those celery stalk tops and POP the breaker trips and you have a steamed customer.

[growler]

After looking at EVERY model listed at the site (www.subzero.com) (http://www.subzero.com%29), I arrived at the conclusion that NO Sub-Zero REQUIRES a 20A ckt.


Celtic, I'm sure you are right but the people that can afford a subzero can easily afford a 20 Amp. circuit. They can also afford seperate circuits for the dishwasher and disposal. In the long run it probably saves them money because of less voltage drop. The compressor motor will probably last longer because it will operate at a cooler temperature. And last but not least they can brag about it to the neighbors ( my wire is bigger than your wire ).

This commercial paid for by the copper wire manufacturers of America.
( there really is not a copper shortage we just want to make higher profits, reality means nothing, perception is everything ).

:smile: Few people need four wheel drive but almost everyone has it. :smile:

[celtic]

This commercial paid for by the copper wire manufacturers of America.
( there really is not a copper shortage we just want to make higher profits, reality means nothing, perception is everything ).



LOL

Is that a "TMYK"?
The More You Know (http://www.themoreyouknow.com/)

[cowboyjwc]

I usually put the fridge on a dedicated 15, or on the SABC.

The dishwasher and disposal will both go on one 15.

I'm still surprised that the myth is still around that seperate circuits are required, by the NEC, for the DW and the GD.

So maybe 15 isn't enough and you run a 20 since you're using so much #12 anyways. I agree with Peter that there is no need for it.

But, to answer the OP I would probably install a seperate circuit for the fridge, just because.

[iwire]

Few people need four wheel drive but almost everyone has it. :smile:

Very true, but the automakers still don't give four wheel drive for free. 8-)

[j_erickson]

We always run an individual 20 Amp circuit for the refrigerator. I've never seen a fridge that needs it (even the big ones), but it's always been our habit. Comes in handy when the kitchen layout get's changed without notice, though.

[480sparky]

Isn't it amazing how much it costs to get the "rustic look?" :grin:

In this case, $1.2 mil, excluding the 300 acres of land.

[LawnGuyLandSparky]

300 acres in Iowa, whats that run, 200 grand? :grin:

[480sparky]

300 acres in Iowa, whats that run, 200 grand? :grin:

Beats me. I'm not a realtor. But 667 bucks an acre seems way low. Maybe 3 or 4 grand per, especially since it's pretty much all timber? Good hunting land, though! The HO put this in the basement:

http://i214.photobucket.com/albums/cc172/480sparky/DSC04935a.jpg

[electricmanscott]

Better give that guy what he wants. :D


Anyway, I used to be one of those "20 amp for this 20 amp for that blah blah hurumph hurumph"....guys, then I actually thought about it rather than just trying to be "better" than the other guy.

20 amp for the sa cicuits, 15 for everything else. There is just no reason to run 20 amp circuits for anything other than the s/a circuits.

[e57]

Beats me. I'm not a realtor. But 667 bucks an acre seems way low. Maybe 3 or 4 grand per, especially since it's pretty much all timber? Good hunting land, though! The HO put this in the basement:

http://i214.photobucket.com/albums/cc172/480sparky/DSC04935a.jpg

I assume he rolls his own?

[480sparky]

I assume he rolls his own?

If that's your euphamism for it, yes. I just wish I had a shot of the 4 gun safes he had down there, too.

[sparky_magoo]

http://i214.photobucket.com/albums/cc172/480sparky/DSC04981a.jpg

Whats up with the zip cord run down the post to the right of the bar? It looks like Scotch tape holding the wire in place.

[bkludecke]

This batch of Sub-Zero's you speak of must be new...newer than 06-24-2007...
#7 (http://forums.mikeholt.com/showpost.php?p=695646&postcount=7) from Refridgerator - seperate circuit? (http://forums.mikeholt.com/showthread.php?t=87772&highlight=sub-zero)



I did some independant research over here in post #30 (http://forums.mikeholt.com/showpost.php?p=672363&postcount=30) from Refrigerators in residential units (http://forums.mikeholt.com/showthread.php?t=85434&highlight=sub-zero)
After looking at EVERY model listed at the site (www.subzero.com) (http://www.subzero.com%29), I arrived at the conclusion that NO Sub-Zero REQUIRES a 20A ckt.

Actually my info may be dated. I haven't checked what the refers require in years. So they may only need 15a these days. I'm an old fart who has a tough time staying current. That said I'll still rough-in with #12 for large appliances 'cause I never know what the HO is going to find when they go shopping. I also provide future conduits to all the crawl spaces from the panelboards and many times I use them before the job is finaled. These are pretty large customs and the money is always there.

[electriciangirl]

[QUOTE=480sparky]Beats me. I'm not a realtor. But 667 bucks an acre seems way low. Maybe 3 or 4 grand per, especially since it's pretty much all timber? Good hunting land, though! The HO put this in the basement:

I was born in Iowa-I don't seem to recall "timber" as part of my vocabulary until I moved to Wisconsin. Is there really such a thing in Iowa?

[480sparky]

Whats up with the zip cord run down the post to the right of the bar? It looks like Scotch tape holding the wire in place.

Speaker wire. Not my thing, but the HOs. No tape, though, just a reflection of the camera flash on the shiny finish of the log post.


I was born in Iowa-I don't seem to recall "timber" as part of my vocabulary until I moved to Wisconsin. Is there really such a thing in Iowa?

Woods, then? Forest? Grove? Stand? Thicket? Briarpatch? Copse? Surely you've seen a crick. Not a creek, but a crick.

[iaov]

Better give that guy what he wants. :D


Anyway, I used to be one of those "20 amp for this 20 amp for that blah blah hurumph hurumph"....guys, then I actually thought about it rather than just trying to be "better" than the other guy.

20 amp for the sa cicuits, 15 for everything else. There is just no reason to run 20 amp circuits for anything other than the s/a circuits.Thats the way I do it too. I always put fridge on its own 15 amp circuit and haven't had a problem with this practice so far.

[electriciangirl]

[


Woods, then? Forest? Grove? Stand? Thicket? Briarpatch? Copse? Surely you've seen a crick. Not a creek, but a crick.[/QUOTE]


I think the word I knew when I lived in Iowa was "corn.":grin:
(My mother would scold me if she knew I was being mean to Iowa.)

[iaov]

[QUOTE=480sparky]Beats me. I'm not a realtor. But 667 bucks an acre seems way low. Maybe 3 or 4 grand per, especially since it's pretty much all timber? Good hunting land, though! The HO put this in the basement:

I was born in Iowa-I don't seem to recall "timber" as part of my vocabulary until I moved to Wisconsin. Is there really such a thing in Iowa?
My sister moved to Iowa from here in the northwoods. She says her boyfriend meets his hunting buddies not out in the woods, but rather by the tree!!

[Rampage_Rick]

Very true, but the automakers still don't give four wheel drive for free. 8-)
But they do charge extra for an automatic transmission that costs the same to manufacture than a manual, IF you have a choice. Most drivers still perceive that automatics are more desirable. They are therefore willing to pay a premium and manufacturers are able to charge more for an auto equipped model. In certain high performance models, the perception is the opposite, hence the comparable (or even higher) cost of a manual equipped model.

I drive a 2000 GMC stick-shift, which was downright hard to find. I was looking at the 2007s and you can't get a manual anymore. They have a 'manumatic' push-button option, but slushbox automatics that can be manually shifted are still slushboxes, no matter how many gears or "sophistication" you put in them. Kind of like 'fine imported polyester.' After a month of playing, the novelty wears off and you leave it in D.

Sooo... If everyone cooperates it should be feasable to sell homeowners on 20A homeruns for each appliance. Just have to make it a 'statement' :D I'm sure the owner of that 'rustic' shanty would spring for it. Did they have the authentic crescent carved in the bathroom door?

Sorry if I come across as punchy, it was a tough day at work and I'm recovering with a combination of bad jokes and Christmas cheer. Time for bed...

[electricmanscott]

Sooo... If everyone cooperates it should be feasable to sell homeowners on 20A homeruns for each appliance. Just have to make it a 'statement'

Of course this statement would just be a flat out lie.



I'm all for selling stuff to customers to make more money but I am not snake oil saleseman.
I won't tell people something is neccesary or better if it really is not.

[celtic]

I'm all for selling stuff to customers to make more money but I am not snake oil saleseman.
I won't tell people something is neccesary or better if it really is not.


Me too....that's why they get a 15A ckt for the fridge.

[quogueelectric]

Most commercialy trained electricians will say anything less than a 20 is a hairbag. Most residentially trained electricians will say that a 15 is more than adequate. Once a commercial employee becomes an owner they will quickly go with the 15 when they are paying for the material. I typically figure 8-10 ckts for a modern kitchen and I will not touch one for less than 3000 so the cost is figured for this.

[sparky_magoo]

Most commercialy trained electricians will say anything less than a 20 is a hairbag. Most residentially trained electricians will say that a 15 is more than adequate. Once a commercial employee becomes an owner they will quickly go with the 15 when they are paying for the material. I typically figure 8-10 ckts for a modern kitchen and I will not touch one for less than 3000 so the cost is figured for this.

What is a hairbag?

[electricguy61]

I'm still surprised that the myth is still around that seperate circuits are required, by the NEC, for the DW and the GD.

So maybe 15 isn't enough and you run a 20 since you're using so much #12 anyways. I agree with Peter that there is no need for it.

But, to answer the OP I would probably install a seperate circuit for the fridge, just because.

California Electical Code 210.11 requires a seperate circuit for both the dishwasher and garbage disposal. We typically run a 14/3 on a DP 15amp breaker to a split duplex outlet. I know the load doesn't require it, but the inspectors here do.

http://www.sunnyvale.ca.gov/NR/rdonlyres/45B95A61-1601-472C-B63D-8A9EFFE0B627/0/KitchenRemodel.pdf

[electricguy61]

And we almost always run a dedicated 15amp for the refer because so many homeowners are going to the sub-zero monsters.

Typically custom kitchen: 3 small appliance, garbage disposal, dishwasher, refer and microwave on dedicated 15amp. Also dedicated 15amp for wine coolers.

[cowboyjwc]

California Electical Code 210.11 requires a seperate circuit for both the dishwasher and garbage disposal. We typically run a 14/3 on a DP 15amp breaker to a split duplex outlet. I know the load doesn't require it, but the inspectors here do.

http://www.sunnyvale.ca.gov/NR/rdonlyres/45B95A61-1601-472C-B63D-8A9EFFE0B627/0/KitchenRemodel.pdf

Sorry, but 210-11 doesn't say any such thing. Now that may be a local amendment because that's what they think it says. If you read 210-11(A) it may seem that's what it's refering to, but it still doesn't say that you are required to have two circuits.

[electricguy61]

Sorry, but 210-11 doesn't say any such thing. Now that may be a local amendment because that's what they think it says. If you read 210-11(A) it may seem that's what it's refering to, but it still doesn't say that you are required to have two circuits.

Sunnyvale isn't the only city up in Northern Ca to require seperate cicruits for the GD/DW. I don't have access to the CEC, but evidently you do, and I don't doubt what you're saying about it being misinterpreted

What I know is that the these cities require seperate circuits, so perhaps that's where the "myth" that it is required by the NEC comes from.

[cowboyjwc]

Sunnyvale isn't the only city up in Northern Ca to require seperate cicruits for the GD/DW. I don't have access to the CEC, but evidently you do, and I don't doubt what you're saying about it being misinterpreted

What I know is that the these cities require seperate circuits, so perhaps that's where the "myth" that it is required by the NEC comes from.

See now we're starting to agree.:D

One of my inspectors use to make this same call and was very proud of himself, that he caught it, when he told me. I then asked him to show it to me in the NEC. He took his code book home and spent all weekend going through it before he came in on Monday and told me that I was correct.

His argument was that everyone does it and I agree, I even did it, because I thought you had to, but it is not required.

As confusing as the NEC can be at time, I love Article 210. It is Pretty straight forward on what it wants and where it wants it.