what would you charge?

[tonyou812]

I just got my liscense recently and now I am doing small jobs on my own Just to get a feel for how to run a buisness. And yes Its all legit.
My question is that im really not sure if i am charging the right amount. I have a job comming up that involves piping out of a buss duct about 40 feet to a 1900 box and a cord drop of 30 feet to a 30 amp cord end for a machine. The work to be done is all off an 8 foot ladder and the materials are supplied by me. I am moving an existing 30a fused buss switch to accomodate this machine.
When I did the numbers i came up with $450 bucks and i feel that i can do this in about an hour and a half by myself. I figured 95 to show up plus 50 an hour. But for some reason it seems like a lot to me. I feel i can do it i an hour if i "hustle" Any insight would be appreciated

[emahler]

what about travel time? clean up? set up? how can you possibly make a dime at $50/hr? $450 is not too expensive.

[480sparky]

Before we can answer your question, there's a lot of info you need to supply, and it isn't easy.

Cost of living in your area. What do you need to live one?
Licensing costs.
Insurance.
Rent.
Bonds.
Legal fees (attorney).
Do you have a bookkeeping service?
How about an accountant?
What do you spend on advertising?
What are permit fees?
Vehicle costs.... repairs & maintainence, gas, insurance.
Tools.

And, of course, taxes.

It's all too easy to simply say "I charged $1,000 for the job, and my material was $600, so put $400 in my pocket!" Start deducting the actual costs of the above stuff, and you'd be surprised.

[satcom]

Commercial or industrial rate would be $90 min and that may not be eniough to cover the break even cost. at $50 it is more like paying them to work.


Quote: "It's all too easy to simply say "I charged $1,000 for the job, and my material was $600, so put $400 in my pocket!" Start deducting the actual costs of the above stuff, and you'd be surprised."
My thoughts exactly

[celtic]

..... plus 50 an hour. But for some reason it seems like a lot to me.

I'll sub all my work to you at that price ;)

I know you've seen this before....play with it and see where you should be at:
http://www.masterplumbers.com/utilities/costcalc/

Treat it as if this was your sole source of income....one day, it might be and your $50 folks may not like the "new you".

[Controls]

Whenever I hope to finish a job within an hour, It takes me 3 hours to do it. ?!450$ sounds cheap to me.

[Rewire]

I would have figured a two man crew 4 hours

[KRC1]

I am always second guessing my prices.If you take all of the above into account + the knowledge to do the work I'd raise my price.

[brantmacga]

it might be and your $50 folks may not like the "new you".

Yep. that was me when I was doing side work.

[dSilanskas]

Thats not a bad price at all :smile: You have to make a living also dont be scared to charge!

[brian john]

Years ago when I was first starting out a banker told me he ha a contractor, that wanted a loan explain I should make at least a million this year, the bankers response it not what you make, but what you keep.

[satcom]

Years ago when I was first starting out a banker told me he ha a contractor, that wanted a loan explain I should make at least a million this year, the bankers response it not what you make, but what you keep.

I also learned years ago, I had a family to support, and needed benifits, and could not work for wages, I needed a good rate, no handyman rate was going to meet my needs. I never looked at what others charged, nor did i care, I was always higher then the guys working for wages, but that emabled me to build a strong account base over the years, that were willing to pay a decent rate good service.
As I look back over the years the cheap EC's never amounted to much in the way of a business, most of them died bitter old men. with little or nothing to show for their years of work.

[growler]

As I look back over the years the cheap EC's never amounted to much in the way of a business, most of them died bitter old men. with little or nothing to show for their years of work.


I think that tony is just doing this as side work and only thinks that he's making money.

I had a friend a few years back that would go out on saturday and make a couple of hundred cash and think he was doing good. I tried to tell him that he was actually making more money if the worked that same saturday as overtime with the added value of being insured and not being held responsible for the work or any call backs.

People don't learn to swim until they actually get in the water. It's the same with business.

[brian john]

I don't know, I know some very sucessful bitter old electricians and a few one man shops that make wages and are happy..There is more to it than just the bucks for some.

Myself I LOVE what I do and am happy I am able to support a family doing this.

That being said you have to figure out what is a fair price for the market you are in (fair to you).

[satcom]

I think that tony is just doing this as side work and only thinks that he's making money.

I had a friend a few years back that would go out on saturday and make a couple of hundred cash and think he was doing good. I tried to tell him that he was actually making more money if the worked that same saturday as overtime with the added value of being insured and not being held responsible for the work or any call backs.

People don't learn to swim until they actually get in the water. It's the same with business.

Dale, good point.

[satcom]

I don't know, I know some very sucessful bitter old electricians and a few one man shops that make wages and are happy..There is more to it than just the bucks for some.

Myself I LOVE what I do and am happy I am able to support a family doing this.

That being said you have to figure out what is a fair price for the market you are in (fair to you).

My issue was, you need to both build value in a business not just generate wages, and have benifits for the long term, otherwise you just have a job and a bad one at that, many don't see the problem until it is to lare in years.

[aline]

I feel i can do it i an hour if i "hustle" Any insight would be appreciated
I do these 1-hour jobs quite often. They break down as follows.

1/2-hour travel to job.
1-hour spent waiting for the manager to get off the phone and then listening to the him talk about his horses.
1/2-hour spent getting all my stuff off the truck and to the job location.
1/2-hour spent getting someone to move all the pallets of stuff they decided to put right where I need to work the night before.
1/2-hour spent listening to a worker in the area talk about the divorce he's going through.
1-hour spent doing the actual work.
1/4-hour spent listening to a worker talk about some other electrical problem he's having in the building and want's to know if I have any ideas.
1-hour spent finding the manager, waiting for him to cut me a check and listen to him talk about his horses again.
1/2-hour travel from job.

These little 1-hour jobs can easily kill half your day.
You may also need to factor in a 1/2-hour for you or your electrician to take a dump.

One more thing. Did you go out and look at the job as well? If so how much time did you spend looking at the job in the first place? Did you get paid for looking at the job or do you need to factor this time into your bid as well?

[ItsHot]

Whenever I hope to finish a job within an hour, It takes me 3 hours to do it. ?!450$ sounds cheap to me. I thought I was the only one with this problem!

[Poolside]

Guys who aren't used to dealing with the prices on the job always start out with the "sounds like a lot", but in reality they underprice themselves and the rest of us. I got over that when I noticed that every time I had my service truck taken to the dealer for a repair it was $300- $500.00. The labor was only an hour or two plus the parts. AND I had to drive the truck to them. Look at the relative cost of various services you use and you arrive at the conclusion that maybe your prices are under-priced.

[Controls]

ITsHot, you are not the only one. I am not the slowest person !!. I am sure you are not either.Sometimes, we have to face the unexpected obstacles that slows things down. It is the biggest joke between my wife and I . She says : It will only take you 15 minutes right ?.You will be home soon!!. I just do not answer her back.

[tonyou812]

I do these 1-hour jobs quite often. They break down as follows.

1/2-hour travel to job.
1-hour spent waiting for the manager to get off the phone and then listening to the him talk about his horses.
1/2-hour spent getting all my stuff off the truck and to the job location.
1/2-hour spent getting someone to move all the pallets of stuff they decided to put right where I need to work the night before.
1/2-hour spent listening to a worker in the area talk about the divorce he's going through.
1-hour spent doing the actual work.
1/4-hour spent listening to a worker talk about some other electrical problem he's having in the building and want's to know if I have any ideas.
1-hour spent finding the manager, waiting for him to cut me a check and listen to him talk about his horses again.
1/2-hour travel from job.

These little 1-hour jobs can easily kill half your day.
You may also need to factor in a 1/2-hour for you or your electrician to take a dump.

One more thing. Did you go out and look at the job as well? If so how much time did you spend looking at the job in the first place? Did you get paid for looking at the job or do you need to factor this time into your bid as well?
nicely put. hands down the best response

[satcom]

Guys who aren't used to dealing with the prices on the job always start out with the "sounds like a lot", but in reality they underprice themselves and the rest of us. I got over that when I noticed that every time I had my service truck taken to the dealer for a repair it was $300- $500.00. The labor was only an hour or two plus the parts. AND I had to drive the truck to them. Look at the relative cost of various services you use and you arrive at the conclusion that maybe your prices are under-priced.

$300 to $500 for and hours truck repair time is common, you have to remember a lot of the guys thinkinng it's a lot of money, are the same ones , playing back yard mechanic.

[infinity]

When I did the numbers i came up with $450 bucks and i feel that i can do this in about an hour and a half by myself. I figured 95 to show up plus 50 an hour.


If you're working for $50 an hour you're one of the guys that the local contractors association is trying to put out of business. Since you mentioned the word Buss-duct I'm assuming your not doing work for a little old lady down the street, but for a large facility that should be willing to pay you at least double your 50 bucks an hour. Some contractor would charge an even higher hourly rate I know I would.

[LawnGuyLandSparky]

I just got my liscense recently and now I am doing small jobs on my own Just to get a feel for how to run a buisness. And yes Its all legit.
My question is that im really not sure if i am charging the right amount. I have a job comming up that involves piping out of a buss duct about 40 feet to a 1900 box and a cord drop of 30 feet to a 30 amp cord end for a machine. The work to be done is all off an 8 foot ladder and the materials are supplied by me. I am moving an existing 30a fused buss switch to accomodate this machine.
When I did the numbers i came up with $450 bucks and i feel that i can do this in about an hour and a half by myself. I figured 95 to show up plus 50 an hour. But for some reason it seems like a lot to me. I feel i can do it i an hour if i "hustle" Any insight would be appreciated

Buss duct? Pipe? 40' drop? 30 amp? This is NOT a small job. I don't know where in NJ you are, but unless it's in the part of Jersey that's in Mississippi, you'd better rethink your rate schedule.

You have to pay yourself as an employee, plus you have to pay yourself as a business owner.

[satcom]

Tony,
This morning I posed this job, to my neighbor, he is a maint manager for a large high rise office park, in new jersey, he said he is lucky to get an electrician to show up, and look at a job for $300

[petersonra]

find out what other people doing similar work are charging. thats what the market price is. if you charge more than that price, you porobably won't get much business.

[satcom]

find out what other people doing similar work are charging. thats what the market price is. if you charge more than that price, you porobably won't get much business.

Electrical work, is not a commodity, contracting is not priced on an index, he is not selling soy beans, he is selling a service, his pricing will be dependent on his cost of providing that service, not looking at what some other guy is charging, the other guys may not know their own costs.

He has to find his own costs, to establish a price.

[tonyou812]

Thank you all for your input, it is very helpful. I thought getting my license was hard but i see the real work ahead is harder. I work for somebody right now while i am trying to start my own thing. I have purchased a new sprinter van and already have a a couple of good customers. But now i see that pricing jobs is harder than i thought. I have nothing to really go off of. and I would not want to be the guy lowering the bottom line. I have looked at some sites and have a better idea now. thanks people

[tonyou812]

my original price was a bit higher but i chickend out thinking that it was to high and scare away my first good customer.

[480sparky]

He has to find his own costs, to establish a price.

And those costs are not limited to just labor and material.

Consider all your expenses:
Outside Services
Payroll
Office Supplies
Advertising
Rent
Accounting
Legal
Telephone
Utilities
Insurance (liability, property, personal, medical)
Bonds
Permits
Licensing
CEUs
Vehicle (fuel, repairs, maintenance, insurance)
Web design & maintenance
Workers Comp
Unemployment
Depreciation
Interest Paid

Heck, even buying a handful of NECs add up these days!

And, of couse, Uncle Sam & his buddies at all levels of government.

Only when you get a handle on your true operations costs can you determine what you must charge in order to stay in business.

[tonyou812]

what do you do when they want to know how much it is going to cost? do you give them a ball park figure. Is it better to charge TnM? Or to figure out how much i want to make on the job? Or do you customize how you charge based on the customer?

[satcom]

what do you do when they want to know how much it is going to cost? do you give them a ball park figure. Is it better to charge TnM? Or to figure out how much i want to make on the job? Or do you customize how you charge based on the customer?

It appears you have a lot of work to do, before you quote any work.

The price you quoted is way low, even for a business with low overhead.

[bradleyelectric]

If you're working for $50 an hour you're one of the guys that the local contractors association is trying to put out of business. Since you mentioned the word Buss-duct I'm assuming your not doing work for a little old lady down the street, but for a large facility that should be willing to pay you at least double your 50 bucks an hour. Some contractor would charge an even higher hourly rate I know I would.

At $50/hour around here, he will be out of business without any help, or he will be 1 of those guys that end up working out of an old pickup truck with no insurance.

[petersonra]

Electrical work, is not a commodity, contracting is not priced on an index, he is not selling soy beans, he is selling a service, his pricing will be dependent on his cost of providing that service, not looking at what some other guy is charging, the other guys may not know their own costs.

He has to find his own costs, to establish a price.

You are mostly wrong about this. In most cases EC actually is a commodity. There are plenty of ECs in most areas that can do the same work, and can do it well. There are some niches he could fill that might reduce the competition, but he is going to have to be competitively priced or he will have no business to worry about.

His costs are not an issue in determining what the market will bear. It may be a determining factor in deciding if he can make a go of it.

[petersonra]

If you're working for $50 an hour you're one of the guys that the local contractors association is trying to put out of business. Since you mentioned the word Buss-duct I'm assuming your not doing work for a little old lady down the street, but for a large facility that should be willing to pay you at least double your 50 bucks an hour. Some contractor would charge an even higher hourly rate I know I would.

$95 to show up sounds fair. $50 an hour sounds cheap.

Say you operate a business and you are the sole employee. You have a service truck that is well stocked and have typical EC tools. You are talking about something in the area of $50,000 investment at a bare minimum. You are going to have to amortize that over maybe 5 years realistically. If you work 2000 hours per year, just paying the capital costs for your truck may cost you $5/hour. Operating costs for the truck could well be another $4000/year or about $2/hour.

Your health insurance will cost you some thing like $8000/year for you and your family. That adds another $4/hour to your overhead.

Liability insurance is not cheap. I don't know what it costs in youir neck of the woods, but I do know a guy in a similar business around here paying $2200/year just for himself. Call it another $1/hour.

See where this is going?

[bradleyelectric]

You are mostly wrong about this. In most cases EC actually is a commodity. There are plenty of ECs in most areas that can do the same work, and can do it well. There are some niches he could fill that might reduce the competition, but he is going to have to be competitively priced or he will have no business to worry about.

His costs are not an issue in determining what the market will bear. It may be a determining factor in deciding if he can make a go of it.

There are electricians in my area that will do 200A service changes for $800. Are you under the impression that I have to do them for $800. or go out of business? Rest assured that I charge much more than that. I sell the job. I do not tell customers what others charge. I tell them what I charge and sell the job. Are you in business?

[ItsHot]

There are electricians in my area that will do 200A service changes for $800. Are you under the impression that I have to do them for $800. or go out of business? Rest assured that I charge much more than that. I sell the job. I do not tell customers what others charge. I tell them what I charge and sell the job. Are you in business?
Will that even cover their gas? This is one of the big problems with our trade! Clowns that go out and give work away! Hey Tony would you rather be broke and rested , or tired and broke? Remember you are trying to make money and build a business! Lawn cutters were making $50 an hour 15 years ago.Good Luck to you!!

[iwire]

His costs are not an issue in determining what the market will bear.

Absolutely.

The costs have nothing to do with what the market will bear.

Now why is it that Nike can sell sneakers for $250 when their costs to produce them will be about equal to Walmarts $10 sneakers that do the same thing.


It's all in how you sell the product.

One EC can charge more then the others if they can sell themselves. :smile:

[satcom]

Absolutely.

The costs have nothing to do with what the market will bear.

Now why is it that Nike can sell sneakers for $250 when their costs to produce them will be about equal to Walmarts $10 sneakers that do the same thing.


It's all in how you sell the product.

One EC can charge more then the others if they can sell themselves. :smile:

You have to remember, your selling a service, not a product, services are not measures by a market price cap, a service unlike a product, does not have a fixed cost.

If his service is over priced, the only ajustments he can make is in his mark-ups and profits, not his costs.

The issue is, if he knows his costs, and controls them, he will be able to price his services, and those prices will be what he needs to offer this services, if he tries to price to market pressures, and reduce his costs, he can not survive selling below cost.

[petersonra]

There are electricians in my area that will do 200A service changes for $800. Are you under the impression that I have to do them for $800. or go out of business? Rest assured that I charge much more than that. I sell the job. I do not tell customers what others charge. I tell them what I charge and sell the job. Are you in business?

Not an EC. I do work for a business that is probably even more competitive. We compete with profitable companies that have dirt floors sometimes in their shops.

You cannot compete in the niche he is competing in if you are not competitive with his pricing.

If you are competing in the niche of people who do not know the other guy will do it for $800 and you are charging $2000, they may well buy from you because they just don't know there is much option.

Many people do not understand there can be a radical difference in pricing from one contractor to another. Thats why it is best to shop around some to feel out the best deal (maybe not the lowest price).

[tonyou812]

I just want to say thanks again to everyone again. Lukily it was only my third small job on my own and I quickly am learning my mistake. I understand that i must figure my own operating costs before I do anything. From there I can better find an hourly rate in which to base my time on. This site is fantastic What a tool to have. thanks again people

[emahler]

Not an EC. I do work for a business that is probably even more competitive. We compete with profitable companies that have dirt floors sometimes in their shops.

You cannot compete in the niche he is competing in if you are not competitive with his pricing.

If you are competing in the niche of people who do not know the other guy will do it for $800 and you are charging $2000, they may well buy from you because they just don't know there is much option.

Many people do not understand there can be a radical difference in pricing from one contractor to another. Thats why it is best to shop around some to feel out the best deal (maybe not the lowest price).

there is a distinct problem with this plan on a smaller EC level...Try calling local contractors at the beginning of the month and getting prices for different tasks...Then call the same guys at the end of the month when their supply house bill is due, their truck payment is due, etc...and get prices for the same tasks..

I'd bet dollars to donuts you will not only get prices all over the board from different contractors, but you will get different prices at different times from the same contractors.

We are not a restaurant with a menu (well some flat rate shops are:D)...most small businesses simply make up the prices as they go. Or they have a set hourly rate...but I'd bet that no two jobs done T&M ever have the same price.

So worrying about what everyone else charges...especially in the resi/lt commercial service market....is nothing more than a waste of energy and resources....because you will only know yesterdays going rate...and by the time you learn todays rate, it will already be tomorrow.

when you work T&M, it's easy to compare hourly rates. When you work flat rate/contract price/fixed price (pick your term)...I can easily justify the extra cost. I can easily explain to the customer the extra cost. I can't get customers to understand the differences when all they know is the hourly rate.

but hey...industrial controls...resi service...220...221...what's the difference...

[tonyou812]

i dont really care what other people are charging, nor do I want to find out prices so i can lowball , Im new to this so It would be nice to know that im in the ball park.

[emahler]

i dont really care what other people are charging, nor do I want to find out prices so i can lowball , Im new to this so It would be nice to know that im in the ball park.

let me ask you a silly question...well 2 actually...

1) what ballpark?

and

2) who cares? if they hire you, you were priced right. If they don't hire you, you were priced wrong. You won't know until after you give the price. The ballpark will change tomorrow, guaranteed. And if you don't charge enough for your services, it doesn't matter if you are smack in the middle of the ballpark, you are still losing money and still working your way out of business.

the only thing that matters is the perceived value you parlay to your customers and the fact that they will pay you for it.

Edit to add....it's very rare for a contractor who truly knows his costs, and prices accordingly, to have to raise his prices up to the 'going rate'...typically a contractor that prices according to his true costs, is on the high side of the equation.

[tufts46argled]

Buss duct? Pipe? 40' drop? 30 amp? This is NOT a small job. I don't know where in NJ you are, but unless it's in the part of Jersey that's in Mississippi, you'd better rethink your rate schedule.

You have to pay yourself as an employee, plus you have to pay yourself as a business owner.


Hey, even in Mississippi we charge more than $50.00 an hour!