Why?

[john_axelson]

Why does this forum frown on Do-It-Yourselfers, but then totally embrace the Do-It-Yourself contractor? We constantly answer the "How much?" question on this forum without addressing what should be the real question and it doesn't matter if you are from Mn or La, "How Long?" should be the only question that should be answered.

If we continue to answer the How Much question in the dollar amount instead of the Labor Time required, no one is going to take the time that they really should to become a successful contractor.

If we want to promote successful contracting, let's really enforce the principle that the only true way to become a successful contractor is to know your Costs. All contractors have to determine their own labor rates, not follow the lead of all of the others. I lease a space, you may work out of your home, until a time you need more space. I provide a different benefit package or maybe, I provide the package required by the local, doesn't matter, I still need to determine my own costs.

So, let's start answering the Contractor who is working hard during the day and trying to estimate at night (with the estimates we are providing) with more valuable information - "How Long?"

[charlie b]

We don’t “frown on” DIYs. Rather, the owner of this forum has decided not to allow forum members to provide advice and assistance to a DIY. It is a liability concern, and it is his money that pays for this forum. Therefore, he gets to make the rules.

[bphgravity]

I see a huge difference. DIY electricians can and do kill themselves, others, and even catch things on fire.

Bad business practices never got anyone killed - short of Mafia dealings of course...

[ceknight]

Why does this forum frown on Do-It-Yourselfers, but then totally embrace the Do-It-Yourself contractor?

Can I assume you're referring to a new member who has posted twice about an upcoming job, once in the NEC forum asking for the nitty gritty on subpanel basics and then in this forum asking for how to price it?

If so, you may notice that we haven't exactly "totally embraced" his questions yet. :)

[john_axelson]

I haven't been a member of this forum as long as most of you, but it appears that whether someone is asking "How much would you charge for...?" most of you answer that question with a dollar value. This is not information that is going to help, it is just going to help the OP to determine, oh ok, $500 for 5 cans in the kitchen is what they charge in New Jersey, so here in Utah I should charge $500 for 5 cans. You can't make that comparison.

I am merely suggesting that we answer the question, with what we would estimate the hours to be, and let them finish the rest of the estimate on their own. Just trying to help provide useful information.

[mkgrady]

One of the reasons to come here is to learn stuff. Whether a poster is being provided with how long something should take, OR how much you would charge, he or she is still learning stuff.

[growler]

I learned something from an old remodeling contractor about 15 years ago that seems to be a major problem when estimating job cost. He said that most people with any real experience can break a job down to it's individual components and and give a reasonable estimate of how long it will take to complete a job but the real problem occcurs when they add up the numbers and they exceed a preconceived idea of what the job should cost. At this point the contractor starts to re-evaluate the time needed for each component of the job to and to reduce the numbers in order to reach the preconceived idea of job cost.

His advice ( the best I have ever herd ) was to never go to a job site to estimate a job with any sort of idea of what the job should cost. Break the job down to component level then add up the numbers and let the chips fall where they may. Never assume that you are going to save time somewhere and actually come in at less than the total.

The fear of over estimating a job is what gets most contractors. :smile:

[code_compliant]

His advice ( the best I have ever heard ) was to never go to a job site to estimate a job with any sort of idea of what the job should cost. Break the job down to component level then add up the numbers and let the chips fall where they may. Never assume that you are going to save time somewhere and actually come in at less than the total.

The fear of over estimating a job is what gets most contractors.


Well said.


In regard to the original post I understand your point. Personally, I'm more willing give a turn-key price than provide a break down of labor units.

Labor units aside, I really enjoy the "what would you charge" posts as it gives me an opportunity to hypothetically bid something I normally might not bother with.:)

[SmithBuilt]

most of you answer that question with a dollar value.


I know there are times when the dollar value is discussed a lot, too much. But many times the advise is good. Some of the first posts are you can't price per square foot, you must break things down and price individually. Maybe we should emphasize that it varies with location and other variables more.

You could almost make growler's statements a sticky. That's especially true today with input costs rising quickly. Price it and walk away.

Tim

[celtic]

We constantly answer the "How much?" question on this forum without addressing what should be the real question and it doesn't matter if you are from Mn or La, "How Long?" should be the only question that should be answered.


We have just upgraded all our "HOW MUCH..." type posts.

In addition to showing the price, you are now required to also:
- indicate your State
- indicate the time

In this thread here: I think I lost it... (http://forums.mikeholt.com/showthread.php?t=93387) , this forum's most censored member made a simple request :
#6 (http://forums.mikeholt.com/showpost.php?p=761818&postcount=6)
Would any of you be willing to "show your work" as to how you reached your numbers?
..one that I agree with here:
#31 (http://forums.mikeholt.com/showpost.php?p=762157&postcount=31)
I think a more accurate question would be:

How long would it take?


Regional figures and all that jazz make the numbers in the metro areas seem staggeringly profitable.
:grin:


The queston of "HOW LONG?" rather than "HOW MUCH ?" has been addressed before....but we cannot force people to respond in a way that we want.

[e57]

A DIY'er is not going to get the subtleties of terminology, or understand broader scope of involvement.

For instance:
This morning I go to a clients home after he called last night. He is living through a remodel, and decided to trim some of it out himself, WHICH HE FELT CONFIDENT ENOUGH TO DO - he called because he couldn't get some SABC's working - He doesn't know line from load, He didn't know much of the make-up was not done yet. He didn't know it wasn't landed in the panel - he just figured he'd install some outlets himself as he has guests coming for the holidays, and figured he wouldn't get on the schedule - nor did he or the GC indicate that he was ready to be on the schedule... All he had to do was call - instead he calls for advice instead... :confused: :roll: :confused:

So I go there - wires on screws backwards, hot - neutral reversed, line / load reversed. He found the HR's and landed the hots on a different manufacturer breaker he bought - stuck it in the panel and hooked up the MWBC and forgot to connect the neutral or ground.... Luck enough that the make up in a J-box was not done....

Should I warrantee or accept liability for anything in that building now - HELL NO! :mad:

But here on the forum, and others like it, when I spot someone asking about say a service and they clearly have no clue - what should we do? Load the gun for them? A service short is no little spark, think grenade - and in most areas there is no OCP what-so-ever - not that one should rely on such for safety.

FYI on another forum - I once spotted this; 'the lights are acting funny, it smells wierd - what should I do?????' :rolleyes:

Not that our trade is that difficult - but neither is brain surgery... But most would accept that there are subtlties that would make them think twice about performing brain surgery. And most brain surgeons would think twice about doing most electrical work.

[Energy-Miser]

Why does this forum frown on Do-It-Yourselfers, but then totally embrace the Do-It-Yourself contractor? We constantly answer the "How much?" question on this forum without addressing what should be the real question and it doesn't matter if you are from Mn or La, "How Long?" should be the only question that should be answered.

If we continue to answer the How Much question in the dollar amount instead of the Labor Time required, no one is going to take the time that they really should to become a successful contractor.

If we want to promote successful contracting, let's really enforce the principle that the only true way to become a successful contractor is to know your Costs. All contractors have to determine their own labor rates, not follow the lead of all of the others. I lease a space, you may work out of your home, until a time you need more space. I provide a different benefit package or maybe, I provide the package required by the local, doesn't matter, I still need to determine my own costs.

So, let's start answering the Contractor who is working hard during the day and trying to estimate at night (with the estimates we are providing) with more valuable information - "How Long?"
Most people are conscious of the fact that price is regional and it has been emphasized. I don't know if you have seen the "I think I have lost it ..." thread or not. There was a lot of talk about regional differences, I actually like finding out what the going rates are in different parts of the country (in case I ever think of relocating !). But your point is well taken about the fact that even in one and the same location, your overhead and mine are not the same, and there will be variations in bids and estimates. e/m.

[khixxx]

With this day and age I bet you could get manslaughter charges if you give advice to someone and they get killed. I know if you wire something up wrong that is not code, You could get that charge.

I've notice most guys don't post labor units here. I guess that is a secret science.

[celtic]

I've notice most guys don't post labor units here. I guess that is a secret science.


http://www.get-a-quote.net

Labor units up the wazoo.

[macmikeman]

The best pricing info was available at http://romexracer.com but alas... they shut it down.:rolleyes:

[iaov]

Estimating a job is tough for all of us. It is mostly science but it still requires a bit of magic too. I don't want to be too high so I don't get any work, but I don't want to leave too much money "sitting on the table" either. I enjoy and learn from reading about how my fellow contractors go about it. I want to know every thing because as one of our members says "It's all about the money.":smile:

[jrannis]

Sorry, but most of these small jobs have the risk of the owner or GC demanding out of sequence work or stack other trades in small area to work together, schedule poorly or other ways to get into your pocket.
Residential service changes, home additions and kitchen remodels are the types of jobs most electricians do as side jobs when they are apprentices.
As a professional, good or bad, you have an idea of a base price before you even get there.
Discovery of the schedule, complexity and volume of the work will lead you to your price. Most of these jobs blossom into changes. The most important thing you can do is address how these changes will be handled. I try to make all changes separate from the initial project agreement and send a separate bill for the extra work.
The amount of trips out to these types of jobs, if not managed, can be a killer to your labor hours

[iaov]

Sorry, but most of these small jobs have the risk of the owner or GC demanding out of sequence work or stack other trades in small area to work together, schedule poorly or other ways to get into your pocket.
Residential service changes, home additions and kitchen remodels are the types of jobs most electricians do as side jobs when they are apprentices.
As a professional, good or bad, you have an idea of a base price before you even get there.
Discovery of the schedule, complexity and volume of the work will lead you to your price. Most of these jobs blossom into changes. The most important thing you can do is address how these changes will be handled. I try to make all changes separate from the initial project agreement and send a separate bill for the extra work.
The amount of trips out to these types of jobs, if not managed, can be a killer to your labor hoursI put it in my bids exactly what change orders will cost and I always have the blank forms with me in the truck. There are some jobs that are extremely profitable just because of the change orders, and I get no grief from the HO as they know up front that changes of mind entail changes of money from thier pockets to mine.:smile:

[jrannis]

I put it in my bids exactly what change orders will cost and I always have the blank forms with me in the truck. There are some jobs that are extremely profitable just because of the change orders, and I get no grief from the HO as they know up front that changes of mind entail changes of money from thier pockets to mine.:smile:

*That is the most valuable lesson new contractors can learn.
Also dont do free work because they "like" you. Some people will try to charm you to the food bank.
Dont do free or cheap work because they promise you a spot in that next big job.

*Unless of course if your wife is a nurse:smile:

[j_erickson]

"How long" won't help. 'Cause I can wire anything faster than anyone else.:grin:

Just kidding. But if someone doesn't know their true costs, then "how long" isn't going to help them. Giving them "how much" might still be beneficial in one way or another.

[Energy-Miser]

I put it in my bids exactly what change orders will cost and I always have the blank forms with me in the truck. There are some jobs that are extremely profitable just because of the change orders, and I get no grief from the HO as they know up front that changes of mind entail changes of money from thier pockets to mine.:smile:
Hi iaov,
Do you work alone, or do you have a crew who work for you? I have four electricians, and with all the jobs that they get sent to, I find it to be very difficult to keep track of changes. Believe me, I have tried but it has not been easy. The other thing is, how do you collect from the GC's ? Most of them give the HO a price that is based on our subcontracted price, and resisit paying too much more beyond the contracted amount. Is that true for most of you, or am I being used by the GCs? Lastly, if you could share with us/me the change order form you referred to, that would be great. I am trying to get a handle on wasted time and material, but find it very frustrating. e/m

[Krim]

Speaking of pricing, does anyone know if either of the electrical cost estimate books are actually close price wise to the general supply house costs ? I'm more specifically looking for an estimate guide for the Maryland and Delaware areas, just to save some time on the phone between myself and the various local distributors salespersons when it comes down to figuring quick estimates for my employer.There are 3 or 4 books I've found searching the internet, all of which seem good but without actually flipping through 'em it's difficult to decide which may be the best for the money .
Current or former user opinions would be helpful and appreciated , I'm already familiar with approximately how much of my time alot of the work, per job, would take, it's the so to say 'nuts and bolts' of the various job materials that I have the most difficulty estimating.
Thank you,
Carl

[GilbeSpark]

Hi iaov,
The other thing is, how do you collect from the GC's ? Most of them give the HO a price that is based on our subcontracted price, and resisit paying too much more beyond the contracted amount. Is that true for most of you, or am I being used by the GCs? Lastly, if you could share with us/me the change order form you referred to, that would be great. I am trying to get a handle on wasted time and material, but find it very frustrating. e/m

We were having the same problems. Even after the builder agreed on the change they would complain about having to pay for it when they got the bill. What we've had to do is make up change order forms and not perform ANY changes until the sheet filled out and signed by the job superintendent.

The form has spaces for: Location, date, work performed, material used, time taken, PRICE, and a line for a signature. No signature no change.

Just because a HO wants something changed doesn't mean it'll be changed. It has to be approved by the builder first!

[jrannis]

Speaking of pricing, does anyone know if either of the electrical cost estimate books are actually close price wise to the general supply house costs ? I'm more specifically looking for an estimate guide for the Maryland and Delaware areas, just to save some time on the phone between myself and the various local distributors salespersons when it comes down to figuring quick estimates for my employer.There are 3 or 4 books I've found searching the internet, all of which seem good but without actually flipping through 'em it's difficult to decide which may be the best for the money .
Current or former user opinions would be helpful and appreciated , I'm already familiar with approximately how much of my time alot of the work, per job, would take, it's the so to say 'nuts and bolts' of the various job materials that I have the most difficulty estimating.
Thank you,
Carl

Do you have an account with Graybar? They used to have a spreadsheet with all of the pricing. Otherise there are several pricing services out there.
Does Mike Holt produce something like this?

[jrannis]

Hi iaov,
Do you work alone, or do you have a crew who work for you? I have four electricians, and with all the jobs that they get sent to, I find it to be very difficult to keep track of changes. Believe me, I have tried but it has not been easy. The other thing is, how do you collect from the GC's ? Most of them give the HO a price that is based on our subcontracted price, and resisit paying too much more beyond the contracted amount. Is that true for most of you, or am I being used by the GCs? Lastly, if you could share with us/me the change order form you referred to, that would be great. I am trying to get a handle on wasted time and material, but find it very frustrating. e/m

Nothing is more important than capturing those change orders. You should commit to becoming an expert at it. Train your people, make the paperwork easy, audit your jobs for the scope of work and be prepared to indiscipline your guys for giving work away. I'm sure your men don't want to be cheated out of hours on payday. If they spend your time giving work away you are getting double ripped off.

Changes must be approved by the owner and paid for. Dont forget time making asbuilts and designing the change in the price.

[hardworkingstiff]

Nothing is more important than capturing those change orders.

I would like to AGREE with this statement. If you do a change, it cost you. That money comes right off the bottom line! If you are in a tight market and bidding aggressivley, it only takes a few unpaid changes to kill any profit you might squeek out.

An important part of getting change orders signed and paid is to be polite.

[JohnJ0906]

No changes until the change order is signed by job super... first! Pad of change order tickets on every truck. No exceptions.

[Krim]

Do you have an account with Graybar? They used to have a spreadsheet with all of the pricing. Otherise there are several pricing services out there.
Does Mike Holt produce something like this?

No we don't use a Graybar, I'll do a Google search to see if there's one localy.
We currently use either E.D.Supply,Grainger or United Electric Supply.The only one of these besides the overly priced Grainger that has anything is the United Electric Supply of whom is currently trying to get a web access catalog up and running for current customers' use. Meanwhile I have to make all kinds of phone calls, set on hold and wait for pricing quotes . On occasion one of the local sales rep's will stop in , I'll give him a list that he faxes back with prices usually 2 or more days later.
Carl:)

[Energy-Miser]

We were having the same problems. Even after the builder agreed on the change they would complain about having to pay for it when they got the bill. What we've had to do is make up change order forms and not perform ANY changes until the sheet filled out and signed by the job superintendent.

The form has spaces for: Location, date, work performed, material used, time taken, PRICE, and a line for a signature. No signature no change.

Just because a HO wants something changed doesn't mean it'll be changed. It has to be approved by the builder first!
Thanks for your response. Do you buy the pre-printed change-order forms, or did you make your own. The only ticket we use currently is the pre-printed triplicate work-order tickets and any change orders are communicated verbally or by the mechnics on a note paper, and I am sure a lot of the change orders and extra work gets lost, because it does not get communicated. e/m

[Energy-Miser]

Do you have an account with Graybar? They used to have a spreadsheet with all of the pricing. Otherise there are several pricing services out there.
Does Mike Holt produce something like this?
Hi,
Was the spread sheet available online for downloading? We have Graybar around here and I am thinking about opening up an account with them. Please let me know how they make the prices available. Thanks, e/m

[Energy-Miser]

Nothing is more important than capturing those change orders. You should commit to becoming an expert at it. Train your people, make the paperwork easy, audit your jobs for the scope of work and be prepared to indiscipline your guys for giving work away. I'm sure your men don't want to be cheated out of hours on payday. If they spend your time giving work away you are getting double ripped off.

Changes must be approved by the owner and paid for. Dont forget time making asbuilts and designing the change in the price.
Yes thanks. I agree you cannot overstate this, as if you are not disciplined in it, then a lot of work walks right out the door. I am one of those slackers, not because I am a slacker, but because I have not had enough experience to know this as a major source of revenue loss, but have come to recognize it. Implementing a system to stop the bleeding is not eay, but of course is a must. I have found out that most electricians, when they are told the exact scope of the work, they are usually pretty good about reporting back to you if their time is being abused. But of course knowing it after the fact is one thing, being pro-active with it, and having the superintendent sign a ticket ahead of time, etc. is another, is the way to go. e/m.

[Energy-Miser]

I would like to AGREE with this statement. If you do a change, it cost you. That money comes right off the bottom line! If you are in a tight market and bidding aggressivley, it only takes a few unpaid changes to kill any profit you might squeek out.

An important part of getting change orders signed and paid is to be polite.
Agreed, but my question is a lot of times the change order comes from homeowner making a last minute change of mind about the location of something, color, style, etc. If the GC is not good at forcing them to pay for it, then it will make it difficult for you to get paid by the GC. What is your experience when it comes to that? e/m

[Energy-Miser]

No changes until the change order is signed by job super... first! Pad of change order tickets on every truck. No exceptions.
John, do you get a lot of grief from the super when you ask for change order in writing? How about collection on the charges for those? e/m

[satcom]

If the change is requested by the homeownerm then the HO signs the order before we proceed, and pays the extra, that day, before we leave the home.

If it is a GC order, he signs the order, and if billed that day.

[JohnJ0906]

John, do you get a lot of grief from the super when you ask for change order in writing? How about collection on the charges for those? e/m

Sometimes. Never with one that is familiar with me. Sign, or no work is done. Often, it is for damage to my work, or a last minute change, and there's never a problem for these.

There may or may not be argument at a level above my head, but as long as the ticket is signed, my rear is covered.

Often these are used as trading chips, as well. "I won't charge for this, if you don't back charge me for that"