problem at work

[electricalperson]

i work with an apprentice at work with about 2 years experience, he second guesses me on everything i do or say and he doesnt listen. he would rather play with the radio and change the songs on his ipod than work. i told him to turn the radio down about 6 times the other day because the security people at the office complex were walking through. also when i try to show him something about the code or whatever he tells me he doesnt really care too much. any advice for dealing with this?

[zog]

Get rid of him, he is making you look bad, there ar plenty of electricians looking for work that do care.

[480sparky]

Talk to the boss and ask for another helper.

[ceknight]

i work with an apprentice at work with about 2 years experience, he second guesses me on everything i do or say..... any advice for dealing with this?

I get the impression from your post that maybe you don't have complete control over this situation. Have you reported this to the next link of your command chain yet? And if so, what was the response?

[electricalperson]

i didnt talk to the boss about it yet hes away for vacation.

[480sparky]

Who's in charge during his absence?

If there isn't anyone, grin and bear it until the boss gets back.

[Dennis Alwon]

I would give him a hammer drill to drill some 1/4 " holes but I would put the drill in reverse. That'll keep him out of your hair for awhile. :grin:

Seriously, I would go to the next in comand and let that person know of the difficulty you are having with him.

[electricguy61]

1) Talk with him about the issues. Make it clear that you are responsible for what happens on the job, including his actions. By the way, how old is he? Arrogance is pretty common in 18-25 year old's

2) If it doesn't get better, then I agree with the previous poster: ask for a new apprentice

[KP2]

your boss will appreciate the fact that you deal with this yourself. I can relate to you and the know it all apprentice who thinks he is so awsome that the 5 hours he works in a 8 hour day is more than enough. I feel that you need to push him to produce and make sure it the grunt work as well,(ie. attic, crawll space, home runs, clean the job trailer) whatever. give him to much to do and skip the leasons on code and wiring until he appreciates and respects you as his supervisor. Dont answer his why ? and push him all day. let him go complain NOT YOU. Thats what worked for me in the past. This helper may not want to hang out with you at the end of the day but its work not the social club.

[zog]

I think that is great advice KP2, or just megger him a few times

[satcom]

Get rid of him, he is making you look bad, there ar plenty of electricians looking for work that do care.

Dump the bum, and find someone that really wants the job.

[nakulak]

1st: tell him to leave the radio at home or don't bother coming in
2nd: tell him he's bugging you and if that doens't str8en him out, tell him to stay home and when the boss comes back give him a call and see if he's got work for him

the radio is going to get him or someone else killed

[wshoard]

I would tell him to loose the iPod except when he is on break, AND, do exactly like KP2 advised, work his butt into the ground on every poop job I could come up with.

[j_erickson]

Do you have control over whether he is fired?

[infinity]

Sounds like he has a severe attitude problem. I worked with a kid like that who was impossible to get through to. Best thing to do is lay him off and get someone who wants to work and more importantly wants to learn. This kid has another 30-40 years in this business. He's starting on the wrong foot and should probably be looking for another trade.

[76nemo]

i work with an apprentice at work with about 2 years experience, he second guesses me on everything i do or say and he doesnt listen. he would rather play with the radio and change the songs on his ipod than work. i told him to turn the radio down about 6 times the other day because the security people at the office complex were walking through. also when i try to show him something about the code or whatever he tells me he doesnt really care too much. any advice for dealing with this?


Like a "Holier than though" attitude? Apprentice means he is looking to you for guidance. If you are talking to him about code, retrofits, arc flash, etc., and he's listening to Snoop Dogg on an iPod, send him walking. That is about as disrespectful as it comes.

[George Stolz]

the radio is going to get him or someone else killed
Why? ...................

[stickboy1375]

Why? ...................


His music selection is terrible... :grin:

[electricalperson]

thanks for the help

[stickboy1375]

thanks for the help

The way I see it is that you've paid your dues in the Electrical field, the last thing you need it to be babysitting some kid with no respect for you.

[GilbeSpark]

Sounds to me, other than your helper being an immature punk, that maybe you're scared to tick off the kid. One of the most important things I've learned about running a crew is that it's ok to tick off your helper, and sometimes it's good to do so.

Bottom line is that it's YOUR job, not his. You run it how you want to run it. If he wants to question how things are done tell him if he doesn't like it to call someone to pick him up and take him home because he's not going to waste company time and company gas while he's sitting in the truck with the heater on. Work or go home. If he's got a better way to do things tell him to call the field supervisor so he can run his own truck.

Run the XXXX out of him. Do this by working TOGETHER. Stay on top of him and even if he's moving quick tell him to hurry up. "Come on let's go. We've got to get this thing done." 5 minutes later when he's changing songs again, "If you worked as much as you changed songs we'd be out of here by now." 5 minutes later, "Man for as much time as you took running in those devices you'd think all the plates would be straight." Let him complain (X) all he wants, who cares. He's not paying your check. Make that sucker complain to the boss about you!

Of course you wouldn't treat a good helper like this but a good helper wouldn't act like that.

Trust yourself more in that you can run a good, quality competent job. You're running a truck for a reason (hopefully a good one!). Don't let some shoddy helper give you a bad name.

[Rockyd]

If you've had a heart to heart talk to him, I see two avenues 1- If you are a member of a union, contact the apprenticeship committee - they have the power to make the boat float one way or another. The committee can insure that he doesn't leave one shop, only to be a burden elsewhere. The industry doesn't need a dead stick in the water, and making us all look bad as electricians. 2 - Since he seems to be "unfit for duty" discharge him as such to avoid legal incrimination, and get rid of him before his bad attitude becomes considered acceptable by others at the shop (or worse -spreads).

[crossman]

I'm in the "get-rid-of-him" boat. The electrical trade is too valuable to squander on someone who doesn't care. Find someone who does care to take that guys place. You, your company, and the industry will be better off for it.

Hey... is this guy the owner's relative by chance?:grin:

[mdshunk]

Sounds to me, other than your helper being an immature punk, that maybe you're scared to piss off the kid. One of the most important things I've learned about running a crew is that it's ok to piss off your helper, and sometimes it's good to do so.
Agreed. I can clearly remember years back, looking a helper straight in the eye with a wild-eyed gaze when nobody else was around, and telling him that I was going to kill him and make it look like an accident. Naturally, I wouldn't have, but he must have had some doubt. He complained to management, to which I promptly denied, and he didn't show up to work anymore after that. Problem solved.

For the all the more I-pods cost, I might be inclined to snatch it from him and smash it with a hammer right in front of him. Worst case, you'll owe him a new I-pod, but he'll get the point.

[480sparky]

Why? ...................

"Hey Rookie! Look out! That scaffold is falling!!!!!...... on you."
"Hey, Cubby! Watch out for that!!!!!....... Skytrack."
"Be careful! That switch is!!!!!........ energized."






*Sigh* "I guess he didn't hear me warning him. Oh well, no big loss."

[topgone]

I did have a guy like that before. I spent more time on that guy than the others. Sort of figured out his weakness and bingo! I got him working fine.
A nice and honest talk with the guy can help. Make sure you document everything you do. Make it a habit to spend some time following through with what you have agreed upon. Little things count much for people with attitude problems. If he doesn't fit after some time, get rid of him, replace non-performers with better guys!

My $0.02.

[DIRT27]

I would say talk to him and let him know that your expectations. The guy kind of sounds like bad news, from what I get he is lazy and doesn't care and a 2nd year apprentice with that attitude is going to be trouble.

I think one talk can make difference, mabey at the beginning of the day. Let him know the IPOD is not allowed and what ever else you expect of him work wise. If he cares about his job he'll straighten up and if not you don't need him. I am pretty easy to get a long with as long as you act like you care and you work. I have had a couple of guys I had tell my boss I will not work with this guy. If you are the journeyman and you refuse to work with an apprentice they aren't going to tell you to stay home.

At the company I work for IPODs are against company policy. A lot of guys don't like it, but I am totally for it. They are a distraction, they also cause safety and communication problems. I don't have any problems with a radio at a moderate level.

[DAWGS]

I had the bosses apprentice son on my crew that I was running. He was irratating everyone and not doing his job. This went on for about 8 months. Journeyman came to me ticked off and complaining about him one day, so I called his father for an emergency meeting. The three of us sat in the job trailer, and I told his father either he goes or I go, and it was going to be now. 15 miutes later the boy and his tools were gone for good. I guess they needed me more. Also the rest of the crew was much happier.;)

[jrannis]

We have earbuds and cell phone language written into our working agreement.
The earbuds are a safety hazard and a distraction, not allowed except break and lunch, same for cell phones and texting.
It is up to each person to inforce the agreement, you have to be accountable if you are the person in charge. You will need to get rid of this person for your our personal safety and his. Do it today. It might save his life.

PS. Doesnt sound like you keep him busy enough.

[George Stolz]

*Sigh* "I guess he didn't hear me warning him. Oh well, no big loss."

So you wouldn't hire a deaf employee? Do you think earplugs should be forbidden?

[LawnGuyLandSparky]

So you wouldn't hire a deaf employee? Do you think earplugs should be forbidden?

Earplugs don't block all sound. And deaf people are not safe on construction sites.

[charlie tuna]

i always set the ground rules for apprentices the first day. one of the rules explains the chain of command on the job and the consequences for not following orders. i make it perfectly clear that when he is working for a journeyman he follows the journeyman's orders 100 per cent and the safety issues that can occur from not doing so. if he/or she feels they are being treated unfairly they can bring it to me, but still "follow the journeyman's orders!

when a journeyman can't get along with his apprentice i usually move the apprentice to another job under a second journeyman. if this doesn't work out -- i get rid of that apprentice....... and believe me--- it has cost me some big union problems-------but thats the way i work it. i have faith in my journeymen or would never assign them an apprentice--thats MY rule.

there are places a radio can be played without any problems--- but common sense plays into this. playing one in an office is beyond common sense. and after being warned-- a second offense -------pay him off!! and an i-pod should never be on any jobsite.............

[GUNNING]

MY big gripe, NO PHONES, No loud music. If somebody complains about the music its gone cause it must be too loud. NOBODY uses a phone while working, break or lunch only bacause Im not paying them then. I demand undivided attention while working. If they are not concentrating on my work, they are gone. Get rid of one dead head and the production goes WAY up. Do the boss a favor sit him in a chair till the boss gets back or till he leaves.

[nakulak]

So you wouldn't hire a deaf employee? Do you think earplugs should be forbidden?

you can still hear with earplugs on. I've had 2 kids and 2 men try to work with the i-pod thing on this year. they couldn't hear a thing. That's fine for certain tasks, but then the idiots think they can keep the thing on when they get put on a different task, like pulling wire, when you need to communicate. Finally I had to just pull the plug on the things, I just wished I could have smashed them cause I sure wanted to.

[j_erickson]

Funny, I just started using my ipod on the job sites.:grin:

But there is a time and place.

And this helper's problem goes way beyond the ipod.

[cadpoint]

Earplugs don't block all sound. And deaf people are not safe on construction sites.

Ear Plugs are designed to stop the noise above 60 dB's

Iinteresting read here from OSHA on Head phones enjoy :

Use of Walkman Radio, Tape, or CD Players and Their Effect When Hearing Protection Is In Use here (http://www.osha.gov/pls/oshaweb/owadisp.show_document?p_table=INTERPRETATIONS&p_id=19542)

[George Stolz]

you can still hear with earplugs on. I've had 2 kids and 2 men try to work with the i-pod thing on this year. they couldn't hear a thing.
Then, no offense, but they're idiots. :D

It tickles me to no end when GCs and foremen ban mp3 players and boomboxes across the board. It's simply assumed that the listener has the thing cranked all the time, or that the trades will have radio wars with volume and station choice.

Usually, when I listen to mine (when it's permitted) it's barely audible, and only in one ear. I want to hear what's going on around me. If I can't hear the tunes while someone else is making a short-term racket, I don't turn it up, I just keep working.

Some smart alecks will sneak up on you and whisper to the "deaf" ear, and then pitch a fit when they aren't heard. Usually, I'll put in earplugs when asked to get rid of the radio, just to make the point.

When someone talks to me, I'll usually yank the tunes out of my ear for the conversation to make it clear they have my undivided attention.

That's fine for certain tasks, but then the idiots think they can keep the thing on when they get put on a different task, like pulling wire, when you need to communicate.
You summed it up nicely: idiots. Why is that suddenly everybody else's problem?

Earplugs don't block all sound.
No, but I guarantee you I can hear more with an earbud in one ear at a low listening level, than I can with two earplugs in. :)

The earbuds might not be OSHA approved hearing protection, but they are better all around IMO for blocking unexpected high pitched noise (chop saw on steel stud, that sort of thing). Who pops out earplugs to talk with their coworkers, and then pops them back in before the fella cranks the saw back up?

Why is a 120 db chop saw more acceptable than a boombox playing music?

I just get irritated when pretty much all construction workers are treated like four year olds. For some reason, it seems more and more like we are too stupid to be trusted to listen to a boombox at a reasonable volume (with no customers within 20 miles), or to use a personal music player in a responsible fashion.

JMO,

[JohnJ0906]

I don't permit my helpers to use headphones. Period.

I used to tell them, "1st time I call you, and you don't answer, they go", but, of course, they couldn't hear me the very 1st time anyway.

They are on the job to help me get the job done, and I don't put up with a whole lot of dumb stuff like headphones, cell phone misuse, attitude, etc.

George, they way you use them wouldn't bother me a bit, but there are too many guys who think the music comes before the job.

[480sparky]

All it takes is one person to crank up ManCow and have radios banned on the job.

All it takes is one person to curse a blue streak and we get lectured on our language.

All it takes is for one person to smoke a coffin nail at the wrong place and smoking is no longer allowed.

I've heard people get reprimanded about their sunflower seed shells scattered all over the job site.

I once had a GC take away the PortaPotty because of the language & artwork that adorned it's walls. (And yes, some of it was, in all truthfulness, really good prose and art!)

I've seen lots of people get sent home for the subject matter on their t-shirts (one even said "Jesus Loves You!").

A job site is just that, a job site. You are here to work, not smoke, fiddle with your iPod, text message your buddies, and fight over what station you're going to listen to. It's not your living room. When we're at your house, we'll play by your rules. But if you work for me, or are at the GC's job site, you play by our rules. And I have enough to do without playing nursemaid to a bunch of cubbies who want nothing more than a paycheck. I can't find time in my day to be the radio brownshirt, the ciggy cop, or waste my time telling people to just grow up and act their age.

Are there mature people on the job site? Absolutely. But like anything else, one bad apple spoils the whole bunch.

Now, if anyone disagrees with me, might I remind you that we are not at 'my house'. We are at Mike's 'house', so we play by his rules while we're here. And I hever heard of anyone complaining about the rules here......

[cschmid]

I have an MP3 player and use it when its appropiate..I especially like it when I am programing it helps me to stay focused on my work as I have no distractions..Cant tell you whats playing either when in the zone..I have apprentices as well..after third explanation and they still don't get it.. I tell them I can train monkeys to do this job and whats your excuse..As you can tell I get irritated..So do yourself a favor and sit him down and give him a common sense speech..If nothing else comes of it you know you gave it an effort..

[emahler]

a friend of mine used to own a car wash...his favorite slogan was "hire the handicap, they're fun to watch"

apparently, you're apprentice doesn't fit that slogan...run him ragged and make him quit...should take about 3 days...

[frenchelectrican]

So you wouldn't hire a deaf employee? Do you think earplugs should be forbidden?

Earplugs don't block all sound. And deaf people are not safe on construction sites.


Dang,... you really drop my jaw what your remark about the deaf peoples

and let you know that i am almost total deaf a serve hard of hearing and i been in the bussines for almost 20 freaking years and i have no one complain to me.

there are few things that deaf peoples are good is picking up viberations much faster than hearing peoples and we allready trained to use the eyes more than the ears.

and i work on alot of large diesel engines and the noise dont affect me at all. to me it sound a whisper to me that how profounded deaf i am.

i know i heard alot of company dont want to hire deaf peoples due this famous statement " cant hear "

and the other good advange what deaf peoples have is good sign langunge [ hand talking ] we can talk pretty good distance over the noisy everoment you try that with shouting how far you can hear over the noise ??

the other thing with deaf workers they are very focoused workers they genrally don't get distracted with noise much but will spot the sisuation pretty fast with sight.


if you want more question on this one.,, just speak up i will be happy to answer more question here.


Merci, Marc

P.S. i know 3 diffrent sign langunges , speak in french , allready know the code in French electrical code , NEC code of course.

[mdshunk]

P.S. i know 3 diffrent sign langunges , speak in french , allready know the code in French electrical code , NEC code of course.
Curious about one thing... does your English sign language have a French accent? :grin:

[frenchelectrican]

:grin: sorta yeah.

but some of the sign langunge grammer is very simuair to the spoken french.

Merci, Marc

[JohnJ0906]

i work with an apprentice at work with about 2 years experience, he second guesses me on everything i do or say and he doesnt listen. he would rather play with the radio and change the songs on his ipod than work. i told him to turn the radio down about 6 times the other day because the security people at the office complex were walking through. also when i try to show him something about the code or whatever he tells me he doesnt really care too much. any advice for dealing with this?

I think the problem is not the radio/ipod, but the attitude. Tell the boss you won't work with him anymore. I've had to do this a couple of times, and usually, they don't last very long after this.

[480sparky]

Don't feel afraid to go to the boss and tell him/her you want another cubby.

I remember once (in my second year of apprenticeship) I went to the boss and asked to be assigned to another project because of the foreman we had on the job.

[George Stolz]

I remember once (in my second year of apprenticeship) I went to the boss and asked to be assigned to another project because of the foreman we had on the job.
I've only done that once - I try to get along with whoever I'm working with, but that guy was impossible. I think the roids had something to do with it.

I almost did a second time, but providentially the boss was too busy to talk, so I put up with it for another month or two before the project was wrapped up.

I hate to be fussy.

[480sparky]

I hate to be fussy.

I wasn't trying to be fussy, either.

I just wanted a foreman who did had these 'redeeming qualities':
1. Be on the job site.
2. Don't do crack.

[emahler]

and let you know that i am almost total deaf a serve hard of hearing and i been in the bussines for almost 20 freaking years and i have no one complain to me.



maybe that have, but you just didn't hear them?

(:D sorry, that was wrong...lord I apologize...but I just couldn't stop myself:D)

[hillbilly]

maybe that have, but you just didn't hear them?

(:D sorry, that was wrong...lord I apologize...but I just couldn't stop myself:D)


Not funny....not at all.

steve

[emahler]

oh well...can't make everyone happy

[George Stolz]

I wasn't trying to be fussy, either.

I just wanted a foreman who did had these 'redeeming qualities':
1. Be on the job site.
2. Don't do crack. I hear that. In my two cases, it was:

1. Don't tell me to do one thing, then threaten me when I didn't do the exact opposite (what you meant to ask for).

1. Put on tools.
2. Provide direction as necessary.
3. Be on the job site (or at least, not hiding)
4. In lieu of (1), (2) & (3), screaming at me for no reason is not a substitute for (1), (2) & (3). :D

Edit to add: Erik, I thought it was a good-hearted jest, and funny. I hope Marc takes it in the vein it appeared to be intended. :)

[Krim]

This would classify as a safety issue wouldn't it ? If he can't hear you with the radio on ,than his safety as well as others' around is in jeopardy therefore he can't bring it (or at least wear it) on the jobsite for insurance reasons ! As to the fact that he won't show you respect as his immediate supervisor on the job give 'em a day off without pay as an attitude adjuster ! Who knows , he might not come back !
Carl :)

[wireman71]

WTF... is this, fire his lazy behind..

[nakulak]

wow this thread keeps going and going. I'm starting to think I should change my position to "just kill him" (for the powers that be - I am joking lol):grin:

[Rockyd]

Tune up the sound box, and put on Santana's "Soul Sacrifice"



Moderator Edit: Removed Link to ytube, PM Rockyd if you would like it.

[GilbeSpark]

Tune up the sound box, and put on Santana's "Soul Sacrifice"
Way off topic, but at the link to the video above: anybody else find the view in the left screen at 7min 44sec extremely disturbing:-?

[Krim]

Way off topic, but at the link to the video above: anybody else find the view in the left screen at 7min 44sec extremely disturbing:-?

With the comment thrown in about " the view in the left screen...." being "extremely disturbing" , you just make us all want to see it now !
Carl :smile:

[jrannis]

Dang,... you really drop my jaw what your remark about the deaf peoples

and let you know that i am almost total deaf a serve hard of hearing and i been in the bussines for almost 20 freaking years and i have no one complain to me.

there are few things that deaf peoples are good is picking up viberations much faster than hearing peoples and we allready trained to use the eyes more than the ears.

and i work on alot of large diesel engines and the noise dont affect me at all. to me it sound a whisper to me that how profounded deaf i am.

i know i heard alot of company dont want to hire deaf peoples due this famous statement " cant hear "

and the other good advange what deaf peoples have is good sign langunge [ hand talking ] we can talk pretty good distance over the noisy everoment you try that with shouting how far you can hear over the noise ??

the other thing with deaf workers they are very focoused workers they genrally don't get distracted with noise much but will spot the sisuation pretty fast with sight.


if you want more question on this one.,, just speak up i will be happy to answer more question here.


Merci, Marc

P.S. i know 3 diffrent sign langunges , speak in french , allready know the code in French electrical code , NEC code of course.

Is this a joke? If so I dont think its funny. If not, its even funnier.

[augie47]

oh well...can't make everyone happy

I hate to admit, but I grinned :grin:

[LawnGuyLandSparky]

Dang,... you really drop my jaw what your remark about the deaf peoples

and let you know that i am almost total deaf a serve hard of hearing and i been in the bussines for almost 20 freaking years and i have no one complain to me.

there are few things that deaf peoples are good is picking up viberations much faster than hearing peoples and we allready trained to use the eyes more than the ears.

and i work on alot of large diesel engines and the noise dont affect me at all. to me it sound a whisper to me that how profounded deaf i am.

i know i heard alot of company dont want to hire deaf peoples due this famous statement " cant hear "

and the other good advange what deaf peoples have is good sign langunge [ hand talking ] we can talk pretty good distance over the noisy everoment you try that with shouting how far you can hear over the noise ??

the other thing with deaf workers they are very focoused workers they genrally don't get distracted with noise much but will spot the sisuation pretty fast with sight.

if you want more question on this one.,, just speak up i will be happy to answer more question here.

Merci, Marc

P.S. i know 3 diffrent sign langunges , speak in french , allready know the code in French electrical code , NEC code of course.

Marc, obviously you made the best of a non ideal situation. But I still wouldn't hire you. None of the "plusses" you've listed enable you to hear "LOOK OUT!" on the jobsite.

[iwire]

Marc, obviously you made the best of a non ideal situation. But I still wouldn't hire you. None of the "plusses" you've listed enable you to hear "LOOK OUT!" on the jobsite.

What century are you living in?

Here in MA I am all but certain that not hiring someone based on lack of hearing would result in a lawsuit.

[LawnGuyLandSparky]

What century are you living in?

I'm living in this century, where noise on a construction site, and verbal warnings still exist.

Here in MA I am all but certain that not hiring someone based on lack of hearing would result in a lawsuit.

Anyone can file a lawsuit. The appealant would have no prima facia case.

You see iWire, that is the problem with being P.C. and not understanding the equal opportunity employment laws. Hiring a deaf person on a construction job where you feel their health welfare and safety is at risk, or their handicap presents a hazard to others is legal, especially when there is no way to make a "reasonable accomodation."

If you have carpal tunnel, the right tools can be had to work around your problem. If you can't hear, you can't hear. And you can't hear me say LOOK OUT.

I once laid off a female apprentice for being incompetant - "requires constant supervision" and "unsuitable for the electrical industry." She claimed racial and sexual discrimination, but when taken to task she lost. For 4 years of apprenticeship she skated and got away with it because she thought, and probably not too far off base - that nobody would want to risk a sexual or racial discrimination claim. I simply documented her actions. (Or inactions, as it were.) I was able to prove she couldn't accomplish a single task on her own. And when unsupervised, would leave her work area and dawdle. She spent more time in the bathroom than working.

Many people have a misunderstanding of the eeoc laws, and there are plenty of people looking to skate by under the presumption that they're "untouchable."

[iwire]

Can you point out to the OSHA reg that requires worker be able to hear?

You see iWire, that is the problem with being P.C. and not understanding the equal opportunity employment laws.

Here it is for my area

(5) Unlawful Employment Practices With Respect To Handicapped Individuals.

(a) The term "handicap" means:

1. a physical or mental impairment which substantially limits one or more major life activities of a person;

2. a record of having such impairment; or

3. being regarding as having such impairment. The term "handicapped person" means any person who has a handicap. The term "major life activities" means functions, including, but not limited to, caring for one's self, performing manual tasks, walking, seeing, hearing, speaking, breathing, learning and working.

(b) The term "qualified handicapped person" means a handicapped person who is capable of performing the essential functions of the position, with or without reasonable accommodation.

(c) An accommodation is "reasonable" if it does not impose undue hardship on the employer.

(d) It is unlawful for any employer, personally or through an agent, to dismiss from employment, or refuse to hire, rehire or advance in employment or otherwise discriminate against a qualified handicapped person because of his or her handicap.

(e) In determining whether an accommodation would impose an undue hardship on the conduct of the employer's business, factors to be considered include:

1. the overall size of the employer's business with respect to the number of employees, number and type of facilities, and size of budget or available assets;

2. the type of the employer's operation, including the compensation and structure of the employer's workforce; and
The following text is effective 12/29/95

3. the nature and cost of the accommodation needed.

(f) Any physical or mental job requirement with respect to hiring, promotion, demotion or dismissal from employment or any other change in employment status or responsibilities shall be functionally related to the specific job or jobs for which the individual is being considered and shall be consistent with the safe and lawful performance of the job.

Yes there is some room for interpretation.

But to say any deaf person is unqualified to work on construction site IMO is well beyond reasonable interpretation of the local laws.

[George Stolz]

None of the "plusses" you've listed enable you to hear "LOOK OUT!" on the jobsite.
Seriously, I don't get it. By the time the guy dropping the object has the wits to yell a warning, and if providentially the guy on the ground has a chance to hear the warning, then there are four possible outcomes:

1. The victim looks up, to see which way to dodge, and catches it in his teeth, compromising the effectiveness of the hard hat.
2. The victim does not look up, takes evasive action and jumps into the path of the falling object.
3. The victim happens to leap out of the way without injury.
4. Since there's always people yelling and making a racket anyway, the victim who can hear perfectly well doesn't hear the warning, or recognize it's directed at him, so he does nothing and either gets hit or doesn't.

I really don't put a lot of stock in emergency verbal warnings when gravity is involved. Gravity is really quick, and we are very slow, IMO.

I think the biggest objection to headphones and hearing impairment is having to repeat yourself on occasion - which I've found usually happens anyway. The headphones just call attention to the repetition, IMO.

[Krim]

Dang,... you really drop my jaw what your remark about the deaf peoples

and let you know that i am almost total deaf a serve hard of hearing and i been in the bussines for almost 20 freaking years and i have no one complain to me.

there are few things that deaf peoples are good is picking up viberations much faster than hearing peoples and we allready trained to use the eyes more than the ears.

and i work on alot of large diesel engines and the noise dont affect me at all. to me it sound a whisper to me that how profounded deaf i am.

i know i heard alot of company dont want to hire deaf peoples due this famous statement " cant hear "

and the other good advange what deaf peoples have is good sign langunge [ hand talking ] we can talk pretty good distance over the noisy everoment you try that with shouting how far you can hear over the noise ??

the other thing with deaf workers they are very focoused workers they genrally don't get distracted with noise much but will spot the sisuation pretty fast with sight.


if you want more question on this one.,, just speak up i will be happy to answer more question here.


Merci, Marc

P.S. i know 3 diffrent sign langunges , speak in french , allready know the code in French electrical code , NEC code of course.


When you consider the personal safety issues, why would a deaf person want to work in such a dangerous field as is the construction trade anyway ?
Especially when you consider the office positions available for those that do already have experience in the trade such as estimators, material purchasers, etcetera .
Carl :)

[George Stolz]

When you consider the personal safety issues, why would a deaf person want to work in such a dangerous field as is the construction trade anyway ?
I imagine food, shelter, transportation and spending cash, same as the rest of us. ;)

I couldn't get a job in the positions you described, myself.

I look at it this way: I have no college education, no educational debts, and I make more money than my father does today; and he has a 50 year headstart on me. This is a very generous, lucrative trade, even for us knuckle-dragging peons, so I don't question anyone for wanting to get in on it. :)

[mdshunk]

All you have to do is read some of the French Marc's posts and you'll figure out he's one smart cookie. I've learned a lot from him, and wouldn't hesitate for a second to hire a deaf man if he was as sharp as him. Probably wouldn't be a good fit as a service electrician (due to the necessary communication issues with the customer), but a construction or planned maintenance electrician would be a better fit.

[Krim]

I imagine food, shelter, transportation and spending cash, same as the rest of us. ;)

I couldn't get a job in the positions you described, myself.

I look at it this way: I have no college education, no educational debts, and I make more money than my father does today; and he has a 50 year headstart on me. This is a very generous, lucrative trade, even for us knuckle-dragging peons, so I don't question anyone for wanting to get in on it. :)

Hey,
I didn't intend to offend anyone ... Sorry if I inadvertingly did so !
Carl :smile:

[jrannis]

The hall sent me out a guy with one arm. I couldnt believe it. I also could not believe how very productive he and his long time tool buddy were. I would take them back again on the type of job we had.

[frenchelectrican]

All you have to do is read some of the French Marc's posts and you'll figure out he's one smart cookie. I've learned a lot from him, and wouldn't hesitate for a second to hire a deaf man if he was as sharp as him. Probably wouldn't be a good fit as a service electrician (due to the necessary communication issues with the customer), but a construction or planned maintenance electrician would be a better fit.

Thanks MD.,,

In fact i did work as service electrician most of my reguar comusters do understand my nature of hard of hearing and i can commuate with them without much issue because i have hearing aid to help me to hear more better. few good comusters some went even one step further they send me the text message just short and driect and that useally take care of that.

some did all they have to just point to the particaur item from there i take care the rest from there.

For others whom may reading this.,,

I know i can see your side of view of safety there and some of constuction site the noise is very unbearable and try to talk veribally in
some area it is almost nonexsting unless you are on someone else's ear.


Qoute:
When you consider the personal safety issues, why would a deaf person want to work in such a dangerous field as is the construction trade anyway ?
Especially when you consider the office positions available for those that do already have experience in the trade such as estimators, material purchasers, etcetera .
Carl :smile:

Well i could do that but myself i can do part but only one quirks is the phone calls that part i can handle it ok but i rather keep my whole body move around and i like to challange something diffrent everyday almost nothing is routine at all.

just off the topic for a min and i do drive hevey service truck that come with 13 speed tranny i know some of ya wonding how i will know when i shift it i go by vibeartions that how i can tell when i change gears. yeah i can heard as well but for most normal siuation i used my eyes to scan around pretty good.

anyway i am glad that topic did came up i know some feel not too comfortable with this topic i can understand that.

and with a good company some case they will go a step further to keep a good worker on hand and some case i know, it is true with this.


Thanks for your time and have nice Holidays guys and ladies

Merci, Marc

[iwire]

Merry Christmas Marc and thanks for bringing your view point into this. :)



BTW...I agree with mdshunk, it would be ridiculous not hire Marc, he is a talented electrician and very knowledgeable. I have been reading his posts for many years now.

[frenchelectrican]

I am glad i can help with this Bob.

of course Merry Christman and Happy New Year to ya.

Merci, Marc