catching the plumbers

[pgordon]

For years we have behind the plumbers in pay, they always made a buck or two more per hour than us. even on the contractor level the could always charge 5 to 10 bucks more a hour. I wonder if the reason we caught them or even passed them is because of technolgy. ???

[chris kennedy]

For years we have behind the plumbers in pay, they always made a buck or two more per hour than us. even on the contractor level the could always charge 5 to 10 bucks more a hour. I wonder if the reason we caught them or even passed them is because of technolgy. ???

The wife is up my butt all the time because I get a lot of better offers. I love what I do and thats that!

[GilbeSpark]

The wife is up my butt all the time because I get a lot of better offers. I love what I do and thats that!

Same here. I've had offers, without me looking for them, making a couple bucks more per hour. Fact is I like where I work.

[iwire]

I wonder if the reason we caught them or even passed them is because of technolgy. ???

Who says we did catch them?

In my area plumbers charge and make much more then ECs.

[goldstar]

In my area plumbers charge and make much more then ECs. Here also. But the most important thing is that they all stick together and charge the same exorbitant fees whereas we tend to cut each others throat to land a job. Some of the contractor's associations in my area publish a sheet (for their own members) showing typical prices for service upgrades, 15 thru 50 amp circuit runs, etc. as a guide line for their members. This is not an attempt at price fixing but rather an attempt to keep their membership in a fairly close competitive environment. I suppose some would argue the other way but I believe if we don't keep our prices in line with what the local economies will bear then we'll always be working for a mere wage.

[brian john]

Around here plumbers and HVAC contractors charge more and make more. So do the elevator guys.

[khixxx]

start a Electrical Contractors Club in your area. You can even make your own secret logo, handshake, or even password.

[emahler]

start a Electrical Contractors Club in your area. You can even make your own secret logo, handshake, or even password.

getting EC's to work together is harder than getting Israel and Palestine to make up...not trying to get political, just trying to make my point...

[satcom]

start a Electrical Contractors Club in your area. You can even make your own secret logo, handshake, or even password.

I am laughing so hard I need a rest, years ago I joined the state contractors assn. the members were talking about how cheap they could do a job and how low they they could out bid the other guy, they were proud of how easy they could slash the prices.

I left that assn and never looked back, they are the same group today, pushing for more CEU hours.

[brian john]

You read all the time how doctors cover for bad doctors, lawyers do the same for their brethren as do teachers. But electricians are the first to trash the other guy for any reason, true or not.

[pgordon]

Except for the plumbers in wellesly That charge a flat rate. $350 to start ,
check up front, I think we have caught them. with all the tech stuff out there, Voice and data. Lighting systems. and the big one FIRE ALARM.
Fire Alarm alone makes up 25 % of a commercial build out.Test contracts
Monitoring contracts. Service contracts all are big bucks. and are required by law . How about cat6, big buck stuff. how about lutron lighting systems
add 1/3 more to the job. with all these ,the cost of doing the same size job
has risin and risin. and a jon is still a jon.

[iwire]

I think we have caught them. with all the tech stuff out there, Voice and data. Lighting systems. and the big one FIRE ALARM.

Yes I agree with those systems which for the most part are not in residential service work.

The hourly rate for basic residential electric work is well under what plumbers charge.

Installing fans, lights, repairing receptacles etc. is still being done for low hourly rates.

I have never seen a plumber have a lower hourly rate for changing washers and a higher hourly rate for their more complicated work.

[crossman]

What if every journeyman electrician in a given area stood up and demanded a certain minimum hourly wage? That might help stabilize the going rates in the market and would make it harder for any particular EC to drastically undercut the market. But, I guess that wouldn't really stop the one-man shops from low-balling.

The electrical rate for residential new-construction down here in Texas is crazy-low. Reason is, there are tons of "helpers" who don't know anything about electrical work except "drill the holes where I marked the X" and "pull that yellow romex from there to there" and "nail the boxes on everywhere I painted a red mark". And there are thousands of these guys willing to work for 7 to 8 bucks an hour.

As for state licensing, these helpers pay $20 to the state each year for an "apprenitce" license and they will work the next 40 years with nothing but that apprentice license.

[pgordon]

Yes we are more of a commercial contractor, But still do resi work, alot more cut thoat than commercial jobs . We use the same rate on comm or resi work. The cost of doing business does not change.

[satcom]

As for state licensing, these helpers pay $20 to the state each year for an "apprenitce" license and they will work the next 40 years with nothing but that apprentice license.

The state licenses apprenitces, to contract work? What is that all about.

[220/221]

I think that plumbers and electricians are about the same in AZ.

[crossman]

The state licenses apprenitces, to contract work? What is that all about.

No, the apprentice license doesn't allow them to be a contractor. What does happen is this: There is a 50 house neighborhood going in. For an EC to have a chance of obtaining this job, he can only pay a decent wage to one or two electricians who know what they are doing. They may get $18 to $20 per hour. The remainder of the labor will be $8 per hour helpers with state apprentice licenses. These "apprentices" are not provided with classes, are not taught anythng beyond "drill this hole" and "pull this romex" and typically have very little opportunity for advancement.

But, I guess that is what the new residential market is, and the ECs have to compete, so they all do the same thing essentially.

[BryanMD]

[QUOTE=crossman]
50 house neighborhood going in...
one or two electricians,.. may get $18 to $20...
the labor will be $8 per hour helpers
But, I guess that is what the new residential market is...

Is and I suspect always will be.
but it isn't necessarily a "Bad Thing".
(tract resi new work might be the best first job choice you can make)

Of those 20 or so raw green $8/hr guys on that crew how may will 'get it' and move up? Not enough for the EC to pay more than the $8 until they show they are worth more. But for the 2 or 3 that do get it? they'll be able to apply those early lessons every day for the rest of their career.

If that low end EC isn't offering an ABC (or union) Apprenticeship program it is up to them to make the moves required to get the training. After as little as 3-6 months on that tract resi crew their next employer will get a guy who is (probably) worth investing something in.

The larger question is why the "real electricians" stick around for $18/hr to run a nursery school. ;)

[HighWirey]

"getting EC's to work together is harder than getting Israel and Palestine to make up"

'Ho Ho Ho !'

"electricians are the first to trash the other guy for any reason"

On an individual basis, back when I worked fair, the membership used to call it 'the international mutherhood of brother stemmers'. Some things will never change . . .

Merry Christmas Everyone and Best Wishes

[khixxx]

getting EC's to work together is harder than getting Israel and Palestine to make up...not trying to get political, just trying to make my point...

I fully agree. well maybe it could be a underground fight club...

I buy real estate now and again. The local REI has about 800 plus people. They send out monthly letters and offer seminars at a cost. blabllblblabbla. If you think EC is competitive, try buying a property $.50 to the dollar. It does amaze me how many guys that make good money in Real Estate help out others. The club keeps up to date on new laws that will effect them. One voice does little but if you get 50 voices then you have something more. A smaller club meets at Eat n Park for an hour lunch once a month. It's more of a meet n great.

I am sure you all know networking is one of the best tools for everyone.

[BryanMD]

Originally Posted by emahler
getting EC's to work together is harder than getting Israel and Palestine to make up...

If they were interested in "working together" they would have stayed with any one of the several previous employers they had and made it further up the management food chain.

In my experience... most one truck company EC's exist because of one of several personality flaws that kept them from moving up or even just holding on to that foreman job they once had somewhere.

eg: the alcoholic who did take offs in the tavern with pitchers of beer flowing all night but had to have his helper wake him up at 7am so he could get his hours in (I could go on).

[crossman]

Of those 20 or so raw green $8/hr guys on that crew how may will 'get it' and move up? Not enough for the EC to pay more than the $8 until they show they are worth more. But for the 2 or 3 that do get it? they'll be able to apply those early lessons every day for the rest of their career.

I agree with you completely.

[wireman71]

The real problem is the lack of decent paying jobs in a field easier than being a electrician. People in my area know the trades pay good and go into them because there aren't a lot of other options if you don't have a college degree. Factories? What are those? Made in the USA, HUH? The problem isn't EC's not sticking together but that there isn't enough work for everyone to make money on. And plumbers make good money because who would want to be a plumber?

[peter d]

The problem isn't EC's not sticking together but that there isn't enough work for everyone to make money on.

Right now, things are slowing down, but for the past however many years, no electricians that I know have ever lacked for work. There is actually a labor shortage of skilled electricians.


And plumbers make good money because who would want to be a plumber?

Electrical work is a highly skilled trade that has the same basic requirements as the plumbing trade (4 year apprencticeship, journeyman and master licenses, etc.) and requires basically the same amount of investment to start a plumbing business (not a fly-by-night operation but a real service and installation business). There is no reason why EC's should not make as much money as plumbers.

[220/221]

most one truck company EC's exist because of one of several personality flaws that kept them from moving up or even just holding on to that foreman job they once had somewhere

Like the inability to put up with stupidity and BS?

That was always my disorder and I never really fit in.

[BryanMD]

Like the inability to put up with stupidity and BS?
That was always my disorder and I never really fit in.

Sure, there are those too (I have my own war stories as well).

Parts of the overall issue why there isn't more 'working together" is that there are so many different ways that different EC's work in the first place; and how they came to be what they are (or aren't) today.

FTM I'll ignore the unlicensed trunk slammers and the really big EC's.

Earlier in this thread I mentioned the dysfunctional one truck EC (who in most instances is actually a damned good mechanic). But there is also the one truck EC who perhaps specializes in some arcane niche. And then you can separate these two types by their business skill level and ability/interest in growth. (That makes 4+ groups so far for those counting)

Then there is the small up and comer. No idea where he got the capital to get the trucks and tools but he sure looks busy. (Read: mortgaged to his eye balls and one sour job away from going under.)

The ones who have a good accountant & lawyer, and the market holds, and he can keep his guys, and... check back in 5 years.
(Now we're up to 6+ groups)

Then the established small EC. He was probably bigger at some earlier point but retrenched to a level he was more comfortable managing. Has 1 or 2 well paid foremen who run his crews while he bids and sells (and plays golf with the local GC's), attends the ABC bull roasts and has his apprentices in school.
Good for him!

Then there are the medium sized companies. Probably inherited and has a good local reputation; owns *everything* outright.

(These last two have learned about accountants and lawyers by now)

So these are the basic 8 groups that are likely to be reading this.

But then we divide them further by market focus.
Resi? Commercial? Industrial? Service? Construction? LV? FA?
Some mixture of several in most cases.

Aside from everyone owning a pair of Kleins just what do these owners really have in common that they should be "working together"? In anything?

Their employees have more in common than the owners do (hint).

[goldstar]

And plumbers make good money because who would want to be a plumber? Probably the most profound statement/question yet.
In my experience... most one truck company EC's exist because of one of several personality flaws that kept them from moving up or even just holding on to that foreman job they once had somewhere. Or you finally come to the realization that the boss is making all the $$ and doling out to you exactly what you initially agreed to work for irrespective of the fact that you are now working twice as hard and twice as long than when you first signed on while he's always thinking that you should be greatful that he's given you a job. (Sorry, didn't mean to go off but it struck a nerve.)

I don't think the issue is really about "working together" but rather about getting the amount of $$ for a job based on what the market will bear. For example, if the going rate for a 200 amp resi service upgrade is going for say $2400 in your area why would someone come along and take the job for $1600 ? Don't get me wrong, I love America and the free enterprise system and our abhility to compete but a $600 disparity on a job like this is just plain bad business. If you're in a highly competitive area and you out-bid the next guy by $100 that's one thing but leaving $600 on the table is not only bad business - it's stupidity.

I'm sure the vast majority of us have come up through the trade and have learned all those technical things that make us good mechanics. However, I believe one of the things that should be a requirement to getting an EC license in any given State is having some formal training in business development or management. Learn how to do your own accounting, learn how to perform a break-even analysis, learn how to price up and bid on a job, research what the going prices are for work in your area, etc. Many of us ended up in this trade by default because, as 220/221 pointed out, we just couldn't put up with the stupidity and BS working for someone else.

I once had a friend refer me to a GC who was interested in changing EC's. All he did was complain about what a lousey job his current EC was doing, that he seldom showed up on the job or met deadlines, etc. I'm always leary to hop on the bandwagon in situations like this because I'm only hearing one side of the story but he asked me to give him a price to wire the next house he was building. So, I did and faxed it over to him. I believe my price was $14k (all the usual things, 2 AC units, double wall oven, big kitchen, etc.). He called me the following day and said he couldn't make out the price on the estimate........."Was it $1400.00 ?" I said "No, it was $14K". His response was "Gee, my electrician has been doing these houses for $6K". I then told him to stop complaining about your electrician, hire a limo and go pick him up, take him out to dinner, drive him home and tuck him into bed !!!

[BryanMD]

Or you finally come to the realization that the boss is making all the $$ and doling out to you exactly what you initially agreed to work for irrespective of the fact that you are now working twice as hard and twice as long than when you first signed on while he's always thinking that you should be grateful that he's given you a job. (Sorry, didn't mean to go off but it struck a nerve.)

I feel you Goldstar and I'm sure almost everyone else who reads it does too.
And I'm not dumping on you directly just using your quote as a starting point.
(Sounds like your last boss was a jerk.)

So now the capable foreman who should have been getting paid OT for those 10 or 20 (or more) extra hours a week he was clocking (but for some reason didn't) but was also driving a company truck burning company gas and had 2 or 3 paid vacation weeks and health insurance etc. but at age 35-40 or so doesn't see it possible to shift to another company to do better for himself...

Maybe he really does have his personal life in order and has the support of his family and a few GC contacts so he hangs up the shingle and goes out on his own. I hope he does well.

But in too many instances (most?) what he really accomplishes is to buy himself a job. DO NOT confuse what he is doing with running a business.

Learn how to do your own accounting, learn how to perform a break-even analysis, learn how to price up and bid on a job, research what the going prices are for work in your area, etc.

Agreed.

I don't think the issue is really about "working together" but rather about getting the amount of $$ for a job based on what the market will bear... but leaving $600 on the table is not only bad business - it's stupidity.

Mostly agreed.

Some sort of working together by the established EC's to educate the new guys is needed and is needed way early in the life of that new EC's "business".

And/Or do it when they were are still an employee (and aren't competition yet) and probably along with better treatment by the employer.

But for now, who is the "mentor" for this guy? Where is he supposed to get the skills? The other small EC's he meets in the supply house doing the same things he is doing? The one established EC he used to work with/for and managed to stay on good terms with?

Forums like this are a good start to get some questions brewing in your head; but you will need more to get real answers. And how many of them have the time or are willing to make the time to read here?

Doing much more than a casual conversation between EC's and you'll end up with someone accusing you of collusion. ;)

[goldstar]

(Sounds like your last boss was a jerk.)
I've worked for some really good bosses in my time. Unfortunately, either the jobs didn't warrant more $$ or there just wasn't enough $$ generated by the business. Some of my worst jobs as an employee were when I worked in NYC as a fire alarm technician and got "downsized"............twice. I met the lowest forms of human life in that end of the business world. Most of the companies were glorified trunk slammers who didn't really know how to run a business and to make matters worse they were third level sub-contractors on major projects and as such were the last ones to get paid. Anyway, the last job I had (just before opening my own EC business) wasn't in the EC trade. After the 2nd downsizing I ended up selling furniture for my best friend. It was a cash business (need I say more ?). Long story, short he was a control freak. If you went out to dinner with him he would order for you. No matter what you did for him or his business it was either the wrong thing or it wasn't good enough. I guess the straw that broke the camel's back was when we made a delivery trip near Atlantic City. We ended up in a casino on the craps tables where he had (at one time) over $10K on the table. After that point in time I couldn't stand to hear any more BS about how the economy is down, we didn't do as well as last year, yada, yada, yada. Yet, he still went out to dinner 4 or 5 times a week and bought $100 bottles of wine, etc. We haven't spoken in over 10 years.

Anyway, getting back to employees in general, if a person or company in our trade merely wants to hire on help to pull cable, nail boxes on studs, etc then they can hire day workers for that matter. However, when the jobs call for more talented people, someone who will act and perform in the same manner as the owner, someone who is familiar with the dangers of our trade and knows how to handle various situations then that's where the problems start. You now want to keep that person but you have to pay more $$, give him more benefits and perks, etc. and that's just not going to happen with a $10/hr employee.

As result of this I choose to be a 1-man shop. I know what it takes to run my business at the level I want it to be. I know there's a limited dollar amount that I can generate as one working person and I don't take on exceptionally big work. When I have jobs that require additional personnel I have 3 or 4 friends that are EC's in the same circumstance and we swap time back and forth. I know what I would want as an employee and I don't believe I could provide that level of comfort for someone unless I choose to bid on large commercial work. But, I don't see that happening any time soon.

All in all my perspective is that management (in general) has failed the working class. Greed does funny things to people. Look at companies like Enron.

Talk to you later......gotta go to church for Xmas Eve.

Regards,

Phil

[360Youth]

Same here. I've had offers, without me looking for them, making a couple bucks more per hour. Fact is I like where I work.

Here, here!

Who says we did catch them?

In my area plumbers charge and make much more then ECs.

Here, too.

[khixxx]

All in all my perspective is that management (in general) has failed the working class. Greed does funny things to people. Look at companies like Enron.

Phil

Nearly all men can stand adversity, but if you want to test a man's character, give him powers.

[jrannis]

Originally Posted by emahler
getting EC's to work together is harder than getting Israel and Palestine to make up...

If they were interested in "working together" they would have stayed with any one of the several previous employers they had and made it further up the management food chain.

In my experience... most one truck company EC's exist because of one of several personality flaws that kept them from moving up or even just holding on to that foreman job they once had somewhere.

eg: the alcoholic who did take offs in the tavern with pitchers of beer flowing all night but had to have his helper wake him up at 7am so he could get his hours in (I could go on).

Or maybe they like the idea of making $100 plus per hour instead of $35 per hour. Take off any time they want, have three day weekends, and enjoy life.

[stevenj76]

They're complaining because now they're in the hole.

Well thats what you get for fully wiring a 1300sqft house including tel and catv for $3500 over and over again (gas hot water.) Rough and trim. Its not a right-to-work state.

So my boss is lowballing against all these other lowball shops, they are competeing into the below $2/sqft range. The guys each have 2 rockstars a day. He wants us to work 10 and call it 8.

The plumbers?? Having a good time. Radio cranked, takes 3 hours for 2 guys to drag in a fiberglass shower/tub liner. 45 minute lunch, 30 minute breaks, leave early. They must have all 8-ball crews at that contractor, but he's still the lowball plumber!

Anyways, I knew that kind of work was just a phase for me, it can't last, its not sustainable. The shops that do it profitably around here buy romex by the train load. Do plumbers buy PEX by the trainload?

[emahler]

Or maybe they like the idea of making $100 plus per hour instead of $35 per hour. Take off any time they want, have three day weekends, and enjoy life.

show me a 1 man company that is taking $100/hr in salary (i'll even accept the perks that the business pays for) and i'll show you....i can't think of anything that funny...

most 1-2 man shop owners make less working for themselves, than they did working for someone else...

[goldstar]

most 1-2 man shop owners make less working for themselves, than they did working for someone else...
Not sure where you're getting your statistics from but I, for one, am making more now than I ever did working for someone else. Don't get me wrong, I'm far from being a millionaire, but I pay my bills on time and have more than enough left over to support my family.

When I worked for someone else, granted I had benefits and perks but when you go through the check-out line at the supermarket the clerk doesn't want to know how your retirement plan is doing or whether you have health care insurance - just fork over the $$$. I can remember times when I'd come home at the end of the week with my paycheck and could barely afford a pizza.

If you're not making it as a 1 or 2-man shop today there's got to be something wrong. The economy could possibly be severely depressed in your area. Whatever the case may be, if you're doing work just to break even stop now and open a 7-11.

[BryanMD]

Or maybe they like the idea of making $100 plus per hour instead of $35 per hour. Take off any time they want, have three day weekends, and enjoy life.

You can charge a $100/hr rate but that doesn't equal $100 salary.

most 1-2 man shop owners make less working for themselves, than they did working for someone else...

BINGO!

For every reasonable assertion made here (look for qualifying terms like "most" etc) of what is generally recognized as a common truth there will always be some who say "hey guy! *I'm* the exception to that rule".

And maybe it really is true (if so... well guy, good for you!)
And both *could* be true... and likely are to *some* extent.
(even with the fish stories attached)

Personally, I'd rather work 50hr x 40 weeks than 40hr x 50 weeks.
Or even 55 hrs x 35 weeks. (Run the numbers sometime)

Maybe when we get to a universal healthcare system and health insurance isn't joined at the hip to employment status more employee's could do it.

But for most *companies* it is really hard to stay in business when your mechanics aren't available to strap on the tools every day.

Merry Christmas Everyone.

[emahler]

Not sure where you're getting your statistics from but I, for one, am making more now than I ever did working for someone else. Don't get me wrong, I'm far from being a millionaire, but I pay my bills on time and have more than enough left over to support my family.

When I worked for someone else, granted I had benefits and perks but when you go through the check-out line at the supermarket the clerk doesn't want to know how your retirement plan is doing or whether you have health care insurance - just fork over the $$$. I can remember times when I'd come home at the end of the week with my paycheck and could barely afford a pizza.

If you're not making it as a 1 or 2-man shop today there's got to be something wrong. The economy could possibly be severely depressed in your area. Whatever the case may be, if you're doing work just to break even stop now and open a 7-11.

i don't dispute that there are 1-2 man shops out there making more than they did as an employee...we were one of them...

I will concede that if you worked for a company that paid you $15/hr with no benefits, it's quite easy to earn more on your own...

but, and there is always a but, look around the local supply house...how many contractors might be making $1000/week payroll on their own (vs. $500/week for someone else) but are working 80-90 hrs to do it? make sure you account for all those unbilled hours..all the time spent looking at prints till midnight...time spent sending out bills...entering checks...depositing checks...all that time...

so, yes, it can be done...but it's the minority that succeeds, not the majority..

[goldstar]

make sure you account for all those unbilled hours..all the time spent looking at prints till midnight...time spent sending out bills...entering checks...depositing checks...all that time...

so, yes, it can be done...but it's the minority that succeeds, not the majority.. You're right. I don't take any of that into account because I do it at my leisure. If I had to do it with a gun to my head it would be work that I should get paid for.

Believe me the only thing I like about the administrative end of a business is going to the bank. Don't like doing takeoffs, pricing up jobs, practicing my sales skills, etc. I'd rather be out there with my tools doing service upgrades. But, once you cross over to the side where you have multiple employees then you're an employer more than a worker and your admin skills better be sharp or you'll go down in flames. I think I said this earlier but there needs to be more administrative and leadership training for people going into trades so they don't end up out there on a wing and a prayer.

[emahler]

You're right. I don't take any of that into account because I do it at my leisure. If I had to do it with a gun to my head it would be work that I should get paid for.

Believe me the only thing I like about the administrative end of a business is going to the bank. Don't like doing takeoffs, pricing up jobs, practicing my sales skills, etc. I'd rather be out there with my tools doing service upgrades. But, once you cross over to the side where you have multiple employees then you're an employer more than a worker and your admin skills better be sharp or you'll go down in flames. I think I said this earlier but there needs to be more administrative and leadership training for people going into trades so they don't end up out there on a wing and a prayer.

i've been grassroots (very grassroots) lobbying for years that NJ should require 2 licenses to go into business in the trades...1 license is the current 1 - a technical license...the other should be a business license - not MBA level, but definitely Jr. College level...

[480sparky]

You're right. I don't take any of that into account because I do it at my leisure. If I had to do it with a gun to my head it would be work that I should get paid for.

But you do have the proverbial 'gun to your head'. You still have bills to pay. If you worked for someone else, would you gladly work evenings and weekends off the clock? You'd say "No," wouldn't you? So how is working for yourself any different? You still are working, and working for someone, it's just that someone is you.

[electricmanscott]

i've been grassroots (very grassroots) lobbying for years that NJ should require 2 licenses to go into business in the trades...1 license is the current 1 - a technical license...the other should be a business license - not MBA level, but definitely Jr. College level...



I don't agree. If you want to go into business, any business, do so at your own peril. It is not up to the government to make that decision for me. Plus...I like making $100.00 and hour. :rolleyes: :grin:

[emahler]

I don't agree. If you want to go into business, any business, do so at your own peril. It is not up to the government to make that decision for me. Plus...I like making $100.00 and hour. :rolleyes: :grin:

they aren't making any decisions for anyone...they are just leveling the playing field so to speak...

for that matter, do away will any licensing and go to anarchy...

[emahler]

But you do have the proverbial 'gun to your head'. You still have bills to pay. If you worked for someone else, would you gladly work evenings and weekends off the clock? You'd say "No," wouldn't you? So how is working for yourself any different? You still are working, and working for someone, it's just that someone is you.

that's my point

[khixxx]

i've been grassroots (very grassroots) lobbying for years that NJ should require 2 licenses to go into business in the trades...1 license is the current 1 - a technical license...the other should be a business license - not MBA level, but definitely Jr. College level...


Good luck, Why don't you see how WV did it. I am sure there are other states as well. How ever it has been my experience that most laws like CEU have no meat. anyone can just walk in an sit, but it's a start. Oh well I guess everyone needs a job.

If I was you I would be lobbying that you need an electrical license, and liability insurance to purchase items such as wire, Receptacles, Switches really anything that requires a "Qualified Electrician". Could you imagine if only ECs could purchase romex? Now add the business sense into the formula.

[nakulak]

I get a kick out of these adds and things that say "be your own boss". It make take a while to realize it, but when you are the owner of a company, pretty much everybody else is your boss (whether they know it or not). (And if you don't know it then you probably aren't treating your clients right either ).

[electricmanscott]

they aren't making any decisions for anyone...they are just leveling the playing field so to speak...

for that matter, do away will any licensing and go to anarchy...


Licensing is fine, am all for that but based on the occupation and only to protect public safety.

Business courses are more for the benefit individual, that is what I was getting at.

Here in MA I do believe "business" is now part of the masters exam. That seems to be fine so long as there is not a requirement for college level business degrees before you can open a business.

[emahler]

Licensing is fine, am all for that but based on the occupation and only to protect public safety.

Business courses are more for the benefit individual, that is what I was getting at.

Here in MA I do believe "business" is now part of the masters exam. That seems to be fine so long as there is not a requirement for college level business degrees before you can open a business.

i'm not saying college degree required...i'm saying make a test that shows proficiency in basic accounting practices required to operate a business...if after passing the test, a contractor chooses to disregard laws of economics, well, then he's an educated idiot at least...

[mdshunk]

i'm not saying college degree required...i'm saying make a test that shows proficiency in basic accounting practices required to operate a business...if after passing the test, a contractor chooses to disregard laws of economics, well, then he's an educated idiot at least...
Why should it be illegal for a new contractor to be dumb at business? Worst case, he'll fail. No big deal, and certainly not a state matter. I really don't need big brother dictating what he thinks I need to be successful.

[emahler]

Why should it be illegal for a new contractor to be dumb at business? Worst case, he'll fail. No big deal, and certainly not a state matter. I really don't need big brother dictating what he thinks I need to be successful.

it's the libertarian in you...see i look at it from a different perspective...that being, "here is a way to lesson your chance of failure, while helping to keep you from screwing up the industry for the other guys"

again, it's not illegal to be dumb in business, it would just be illegal to not pass a test, then be dumb in business...

one could argue that the lack of business sense is a greater danger to public safety that a lack of technical knowledge...i'll let you tear that apart before I explain...however, here is a hint: why do most guys cut corners or not educate themselves deeper in the industry?

[mdshunk]

one could argue that the lack of business sense is a greater danger to public safety that a lack of technical knowledge...i'll let you tear that apart before I explain...however, here is a hint: why do most guys cut corners or not educate themselves deeper in the industry?
There already exists consumer protection laws.

I would absolutely resist a law that would require me to pass a test to demonstrate that I have what it takes to comply with other laws that already exist.

I also reserve my right to be a failure, if I am so inclined.

[emahler]

There already exist consumer protection laws.

I would absolutely resist a law that would require me to pass a test to demonstrate that I have what it takes to comply with other laws that already exist.

the ignorance from being uneducated is far worse than any consumer protection law on the books is designed for...

[mdshunk]

the ignorance from being uneducated is far worse than any consumer protection law on the books is designed for...
Why should it be illegal to be ignorant? If ignorance causes a person to break the law by some means, then those existing laws will prevail. I fail to see how anyone would benefit from your scheme, other than existing contractors who wish to construct barriers to entry. There does exist a population of ignorant consumers who will hire ignorant contractors. They both deserve each other, and there is a market for ignorance.

[emahler]

Why should it be illegal to be ignorant? If ignorance causes a person to break the law by some means, then those existing laws will prevail. I fail to see how anyone would benefit from your scheme, other than existing contractors who wish to construct barriers to entry. There does exist a population of ignorant consumers who will hire ignorant contractors. They both deserve each other, and there is a market for ignorance.

there will always be a market for ignorance...heck, look at lawyers...

and yes, it does have everything to do with creating barriers of entry...you and I agree in principal (at heart, i'm a libertarian as well) but the practicality of it is that ignorant contractors affect more people than just themselves...now, enforce a business license (NJ has a section on their exam now that is "Business and Law", however it's not nearly enough) and you will still have ignorant people, and ignorant unlicensed contractors...and they can be in their own bubble.

I personally don't feel the need to allow otherwise unqualified people the ability to screw up industries because it's their god given right to be ignorant.

[mdshunk]

I personally don't feel the need to allow otherwise unqualified people the ability to screw up industries because it's their god given right to be ignorant.
I think you're giving ignorant people too much credit. The main way (and perhaps only way) they "screw up" the trades is by way of driving the price benchmark down because of their ignorance. It makes the sales calls tougher. Lacking the ignorant group, the sales would be gravy. I'd like that too, but I think it's fundamentally wrong to prohibit that group from having a go at it. There are some people who started out pretty dumb, but got smarter along the way.

[emahler]

I think you're giving ignorant people too much credit. The main way (and perhaps only way) they "screw up" the trades is by way of driving the price benchmark down because of their ignorance. It makes the sales calls tougher. Lacking the ignorant group, the sales would be gravy. I'd like that too, but I think it's fundamentally wrong to prohibit that group from having a go at it. There are some people who started out pretty dumb, but got smarter along the way.

well, i should disclose that i firmly believe people should pass an exam before they are allowed to have kids....as well as pass an IQ test befoe they are allowed out of their house in the morning....

[mdshunk]

well, i should disclose that i firmly believe people should pass an exam before they are allowed to have kids....as well as pass an IQ test befoe they are allowed out of their house in the morning....
I'm not sure that's the cure for anything anyhow. A barrier to entry, for sure, but no real improvement in the end. The Gaston report I linked to a few weeks ago shows that when states tightened the regulations on dentists, for instance, the incidence of tooth decay in those states actually increased.

[emahler]

I'm not sure that's the cure for anything anyhow. A barrier to entry, for sure, but no real improvement in the end. The Gaston report I linked to a few weeks ago shows that when states tightened the regulations on dentists, for instance, the incidence of tooth decay in those states actually increased.
yeah, but restricting the entry by dolts into the contacting business will allow me to afford a better dentist:D win-win

[BryanMD]

Interesting back and forth there ;)

Earlier I described (some of) the various classes of EC's.

From the established small EC upward the common theme of success (beyond tech knowledge and a viable market) is business smarts. And inversely the common theme of failure is a lack of that same business smarts regardless of business size.

It seems to come back to some sort of motivation to limit the number of *unsophisticated* one truck EC's who will break out on their own...
Or to somehow get them to charge higher rates on the jobs they do.
-to keep sales prices high enough
-to afford better margins for the EC
-to earn bigger pay & bene's for more employees

This last is the important and key one BTW.
Would *you* keep your labor burden % the same if the gross were higher?

But it would take a LOT to get them to stop opening altogether.
-Would the nanny state model of requiring business education do it?
-Would the organized labor model of wages/bene's do it?

I'm not saying I have the answer just trying to break out the question.

[khixxx]

How would the consumer play into this, other vendors that you owe money, or employees?

I don't think it's your right to screw up someone else's life by uneducated people but it happens. Maybe this is why big brother gets involved so much. Maybe not today Maybe not tomorrow, but some day it will come.

[brian john]

I personally don't feel the need to allow otherwise unqualified people the ability to screw up industries because it's their god given right to be ignorant.

Some of the better businessmen I have worked with have employees that do some of the lousiest installations. Being good in one aspect does not necessarily lead quality in the other.

[emahler]

Some of the better businessmen I have worked with have employees that do some of the lousiest installations. Being good in one aspect does not necessarily lead quality in the other.

some of the best technical guys i know have employees that do some of the lousiest installations...they never charged enough to hire good installers...

my argument has never been that technical knowledge is useless, but rather lack of business knowledge is ignorant...

[brian john]

some of the best technical guys i know have employees that do some of the lousiest installations...they never charged enough to hire good installers...

At least around here these guys charge as much or more than the going rates.

my argument has never been that technical knowledge is useless, but rather lack of business knowledge is ignorant...

Not following this thought, explain or expand upon PLEASE.

[Pierre C Belarge]

In just reading this thread, it is a great example of how our industry is and how the answers may not be so easy.
There are good arguments (discussion) for both sides, just what is a good compromise/answer???

I will say, something does need to change. Where I am, I see too many small ECs who are really electricians and not contractors, they are in business because the grass looked greener from afar.
I would venture to say the education will help, but how much I cannot say.

[brian john]

Ah but this is AMERICA and the free market will weed them out, all we need is another government agency with bureaucratic nonsense, configured TO PROTECT THE CHILDREN and next thing you know tamper proof receptacles will be mandatory in residence.

[emahler]

md and brian....i finally figured out how to explain it...the license is not intended to create new laws, it's to make sure that guys know and comply with the existing...i'll expand later...

[mdshunk]

md and brian....i finally figured out how to explain it...the license is not intended to create new laws, it's to make sure that guys know and comply with the existing...i'll expand later...
Make a law that says you have to take a test to prove you have the knowledge to comply with other laws that already exist? Crazy. Next thing you know, we'll have to take a driver's test and get a driver's license. :smile:

[JohnJ0906]

Make a law that says you have to take a test to prove you have the knowledge to comply with other laws that already exist? Crazy. Next thing you know, we'll have to take a driver's test and get a driver's license. :smile:

Drive the demolition derby around here... I mean rush hour, and see how effective that is. :roll:

[mdshunk]

I will say, something does need to change. .
Maybe in hearts and minds, but certainly not the law. As Brian John rightly points out, this is America.

[JohnJ0906]

Who says we did catch them?

In my area plumbers charge and make much more then ECs.

I don't know how it is in other areas, but there are no requirements for an electrician to be a J-man to be on his own truck, so to speak. An electrical company needs one Master electrician, and thats it. Everyone else is considered under his supervision.

Not so for the plumber. To be on his own truck, he needs to be a J-man. So if a plumbing company has 3 trucks out doing work, 3 J-men. EC, 3 trucks, 3 anybodies.

[GilbeSpark]

I don't know how it is in other areas, but there are no requirements for an electrician to be a J-man to be on his own truck, so to speak. An electrical company needs one Master electrician, and thats it. Everyone else is considered under his supervision.

Not so for the plumber. To be on his own truck, he needs to be a J-man. So if a plumbing company has 3 trucks out doing work, 3 J-men. EC, 3 trucks, 3 anybodies.

By law here in NC there needs to be one J-man on each job site. It doesn't happen. The state has talked for years about enforcing it but they know if they do they'll put 99% of ECs out of business.

Not sure about the requirements of the plumbers here, but very few are licensed other than the owner.....just like the electrical field.

Here in Charlotte, the HVAC guys are the ones that make the money, for new installs and definately service work. The mark up on HVAC work and materials is waaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaay above plumbers and electricians here.

[mdshunk]

Here in Charlotte, the HVAC guys are the ones that make the money, for new installs and definately service work. The mark up on HVAC work and materials is waaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaay above plumbers and electricians here.
Now you're catching on. 90% of HVAC service is electrical anyhow. An easy leap for a good electrician to add HVAC service to his portfolio of services. The EPA test is a cinch.

[GilbeSpark]

Now you're catching on. 90% of HVAC service is electrical anyhow. An easy leap for a good electrician to add HVAC service to his portfolio of services. The EPA test is a cinch.

If you could do furnace and AC change outs and rewire them all up at the same time you could make a KILLING if you stayed even remotely busy.

[emahler]

perfect example of why there needs to be a license based on the existing laws....on another forum there is a discussion regarding taking credit cards...there are licensed contractors who are actually adding money directly to their invoice to cover the cost of processing the credit card...this is against the law just about everywhere...you can legally offer a cash discount...you can put the processing fees in your overhead...but you can't directly add money to the invoice to cover CC processing fees....

this is one example of thousands of existing laws that are violated every day out of ignorance...once you receive your technical license and go into business, there is no requirement to actually learn about this stuff...

[goldstar]

i've been grassroots (very grassroots) lobbying for years that NJ should require 2 licenses to go into business in the trades...1 license is the current 1 - a technical license...the other should be a business license - not MBA level, but definitely Jr. College level...I don't agree about licensing for a business. However, I do believe there should be more CEU credits available for business development, business practices, pricing up jobs, doing takeoffs, etc. NJ seems to be focussed in on continually re-developing out technical skills and lacking in helping to develop our administrative skills. The way I see it they assume that you already have the business knowledge to enter into a business venture otherwise you wouldn't have taken the leap.
But you do have the proverbial 'gun to your head'. You still have bills to pay.Never said I didn't. If you worked for someone else, would you gladly work evenings and weekends off the clock? You'd say "No," wouldn't you? You're right........I'd say no. So how is working for yourself any different? I work at my own pace and I drive myself. I don't work at a pace determined by someone else or have the drive they think I should have. You still are working, and working for someone, it's just that someone is you. And that's the beauty of it all.

[HighWirey]

We'll never catch those plumbing guys. Haven't figgured it out yet. Ever seen a news report where the cause of the fire was "plumbing"?

Their only claim to fame seems to be the falling down jeans, and that infamous butt crack.

Humm, maybe I should have let myjeans slip a little lower, could of been rich and famous by now!

Best Wishes

[ItsHot]

"What is the difference between a painter and a plumber"?.... A painter smells like "paint"!! Why are we so hung up on what the plumbers earn??? Maybe it is because they are doing something right!??? I think the electrical trade requires at least 10 times the knowledge that the plumbing trade requires! Look at what is involved in the entire field of our trade. That being said, go earn what you want to earn!!!Do plumbers "stick together"? I don't know?? Read through this post. Look at some of the "back bitting"/bashing that we do with one another! I posted a question once on pricing. My concern was "why do customers pay painters what ever they want to paint 2 little bedrooms", and squabble over whatever is priced to add an extra receptacle"?!!! Quit giving your work away like some kind of "hack"!!! This would be a great start that I think would help all of us!

[mkgrady]

Now you're catching on. 90% of HVAC service is electrical anyhow. An easy leap for a good electrician to add HVAC service to his portfolio of services. The EPA test is a cinch.

In MA I don't think there is any license requirement for HVAC (except for pipefitting gas where applicable). What is the EPA test?

[ItsHot]

The epa exam is a requirement that is a brief on the spot exam. You are required to have this to purchase refrigerants(freons) such as the ones that are suppose to harm the ozone when released into atmosphere. It is a pretty simple exam that is offered at a lot of hvac supply houses that stock freon.

[satcom]

http://www.tipages.com/nci/nci_visa.html Information site for exams

[satnad]

Probably the most profound statement/question yet.
Or you finally come to the realization that the boss is making all the $$ and doling out to you exactly what you initially agreed to work for irrespective of the fact that you are now working twice as hard and twice as long than when you first signed on while he's always thinking that you should be greatful that he's given you a job. (Sorry, didn't mean to go off but it struck a nerve.)

I don't think the issue is really about "working together" but rather about getting the amount of $$ for a job based on what the market will bear. For example, if the going rate for a 200 amp resi service upgrade is going for say $2400 in your area why would someone come along and take the job for $1600 ? Don't get me wrong, I love America and the free enterprise system and our abhility to compete but a $600 disparity on a job like this is just plain bad business. If you're in a highly competitive area and you out-bid the next guy by $100 that's one thing but leaving $600 on the table is not only bad business - it's stupidity.

I'm sure the vast majority of us have come up through the trade and have learned all those technical things that make us good mechanics. However, I believe one of the things that should be a requirement to getting an EC license in any given State is having some formal training in business development or management. Learn how to do your own accounting, learn how to perform a break-even analysis, learn how to price up and bid on a job, research what the going prices are for work in your area, etc. Many of us ended up in this trade by default because, as 220/221 pointed out, we just couldn't put up with the stupidity and BS working for someone else.

I once had a friend refer me to a GC who was interested in changing EC's. All he did was complain about what a lousey job his current EC was doing, that he seldom showed up on the job or met deadlines, etc. I'm always leary to hop on the bandwagon in situations like this because I'm only hearing one side of the story but he asked me to give him a price to wire the next house he was building. So, I did and faxed it over to him. I believe my price was $14k (all the usual things, 2 AC units, double wall oven, big kitchen, etc.). He called me the following day and said he couldn't make out the price on the estimate........."Was it $1400.00 ?" I said "No, it was $14K". His response was "Gee, my electrician has been doing these houses for $6K". I then told him to stop complaining about your electrician, hire a limo and go pick him up, take him out to dinner, drive him home and tuck him into bed !!!

One solution is (I mentioned it before) flood that contractor with crappy work and customers - anything you don't want refer him to those customers - he will be out of your way for a while and making peanuts!
What I have noticed in this forum and many others is that electricians who are good trades people are not so good as being business people.
Ex. knowing a bit of accounting or hiring an accountat is the 2nd priority when in business -otherwise it will take 3 years to notice you are working for peanuts and loosing your shirt.
I have a system (a manual system - I only took basic accounting) which takes me exactly 6 minutes anywhere, anytime ON THE ROAD to know exactly how much money I CLEARED in wages so far (for the period), how much `TOTAL` are my Accounts Payable, How much materials (purchases) I have so far for the period, how much Accounts receivables (total), ALL expenses so far etc. etc. But - no. 1 thing to do is after every transaction like a gas fill up etc. is to document it BEFORE leaving the gas staion! or when sitting back on the truck after a purchase of materials - document it right there and NOT - Oh - I will do it later. This system was developed by me and it is private - but talk to an account - they will help you before it is too late.