Seperate charge for services?

[elvis_931]

I am curious. When wiring a house for a /sq.ft. price, do most of you guys wire the house plus do the service(meter,pipe,trench,etc.), or charge a seperate price for the service and the sq.ft price for the house wiring?

[celtic]

I don't use a sq.ft. estimating method.

[BryanMD]

I am curious. When wiring a house for a /sq.ft. price, do most of you guys wire the house plus do the service(meter,pipe,trench,etc.), or charge a seperate price for the service and the sq.ft price for the house wiring?

I'm the newbie this week but I've been lurking here for a long while before my first post and I've read back through a lot of the old posts from well before that...

The short answer is TAKE OFF every single niggling detail because EVERY job is different.

How to mark up and price from your detailed info is a whole other can of worms but whatever method you choose... the first step is knowing your true and complete costs.

Everyone else is probably gonna either jump in with both feet or remain silent. Good luck.

[celtic]

The short answer is TAKE OFF every single niggling detail because EVERY job is different.



The longer answer is:
Sq. ft. pricing does not take into account many items:
- hot tubs/pools
- extra kitchen dedi. lines
- etc etc

How do these items even get factored into sq.ft pricing?

[elvis_931]

I wasnt asking if sq.ft pricing was good or bad, or who does sq. ft. pricing. I was asking: for those who do it by the sq. ft.; do they include the service, or charge seperatly for services.

[480sparky]

I know of people who use square foot pricing for things like switches, receptacles, minimum circuits, GFI's, lights and the like.

Then they add so much for can lights, services, and other bells & whistles such as whirlypools, home offices, dimmers, etc.

I typically do line-item pricing, and use square footage as a double-check.

[satcom]

If they are charging Sq foot they most likely don't know what there costs are, so I really don't think it makes that much of a difference.

I know a lot of moonlighters, and part time hackers, that use sq foot, but not too many serious contractors that use it.

"I typically do line-item pricing, and use square footage as a double-check."

Yup that works.

[celtic]

I wasnt asking if sq.ft pricing was good or bad, or who does sq. ft. pricing. I was asking: for those who do it by the sq. ft.; do they include the service, or charge seperatly for services.

Then allow me to rephrase my response:

I don't use sq.ft. estimating methods, so I don't know what the sq. ft.'ers do :D

[Minuteman]

A good friend of mine does sq ft base prices, and does lots of homes. He adds extra for anything above a 100-amp 20/30 panel. Other extras are for things like; cans, fans, jetted tubs, and cabinet lighting.

I don't like track homes, and wire only 2-3 customs per year. I do more fire/rewires. I do both with a take off.

[480sparky]

Then allow me to rephrase my response:

I don't use sq.ft. estimating methods, so I don't know what the sq. ft.'ers do :D

They find a supplier to sell them wire by the square foot. :grin:

They also buy concrete by the gallon and lumber by the pound.

[elvis_931]

This seems to have turned into an attack on the intelligence of those who charge by the sq. ft. I charge by the sq.ft and make a very good living doing so FYI. I am a serious contractor too BTW.:grin:

[petersonra]

As long as you make money on it, what difference does it make, unless there is a sales tax issue on just the parts side of things.

[Minuteman]

Elvis, if you can sq ft price and make a good profit, than go for it. I can't seem to find the magic number. And if I did, how much do I adjust it when material prices change?

Why don't YOU tell us how YOU do it?

[Rockyd]

Elvis,

The attack isn't personal, it's more along the lines of detailed take-off vs a std barebones minimum of plugs and lights only. I'd be broke before I started if we tried to do industrial by the square foot.

I'd like to see a formula that is more than ballpark, one time wonder, hit that could be applied over and over, for resi application.

[celtic]

This seems to have turned into an attack on the intelligence of those who charge by the sq. ft. I charge by the sq.ft and make a very good living doing so FYI. I am a serious contractor too BTW.:grin:

It's nothing personal - it's just business.;)

I have yet to have someone explain to me how to accurately price a home by the sq. ft.

I've been only been on this board for a little while and haven't read every post on the sq. ft vs. other methods for pricing...but every post pretty much ends up the same:

How do you arrive at the sq. ft. price?

The result is either:
- based on my historical data, which is never revealed
- dead silence and we never hear about sq. ft. pricing again from that poster.

Either way, we get no answer.

I guess the answer to your question of pricing a service will go unanswered as the vast majority of ECs here use a method other than sq.ft. for pricing....and those that do use sq.ft. pricing guard that secret with their lives.

[Watt-Me worry?]

Since I'm no longer a contractor, let me share my experience on this. I did insurance work for years. The GCs used specific insurance approved software which allowed for either a per item price or sq ft. The estimators generally liked using the sq ft method. But if you use the sq ft method then you still have to do a take off because it is generally for rough work. You had to count switches & receptacles and put those in at an R&R price. So, on top of say $2.30 per sq ft, you add in $10.00 per switch or receptacle. Then you add in light fixtures and ceiling fans. Its more to hang a chandelier than a bedroom fixture. Then you add in service, whirlpool etc. My best GC would tell me what he had in the job and I would do a take off (per item, not sq ft) to see if I could get close to his numbers. As most of you have said, per item is much more reliable than sq ft. A word of warning about insurance work: the software categorizes items that an EC often provides to other areas. Whole house fans & exhaust fans are under mechanical. Light fixtures, ceiling fans & the labor to hang them are under lighting. All that said, if you use their pricing and do a thorough estimate, you can make money.

[electricmanscott]

This seems to have turned into an attack on the intelligence of those who charge by the sq. ft. I charge by the sq.ft and make a very good living doing so FYI. I am a serious contractor too BTW.:grin:

Get used to it thats how things are here. There is no shame in sq ft pricing as long as you are aware of what you are charging and what it is you are providing for that charge. Ther are some guys that just seem to have real anger towards this method. Why I don't know. :roll:

I use sq foot pricing for new construction. WHAT? NOOOOOOO? You must be a poor homeless hack. :grin:

Seriously though this is based on minumum code, receptacles, ceiling lights where required, supplied by others, 200 amp overhead service, a few phones, a few catv, two zone boiler, smokes, and that's about it.

Then I add up all the goodies, recessed lights, closet lights, flood lights, and on and on.

I just finished a house where the base price was $4.25 per sq foot. The final cost was more than double that.

Could I do a take off? Sure if I had something to take off from. Gennerally I have a set of plans with no electrical, give a bare bones price and then things get added as we go. The things that get added are gennerally my suggestions and ideas the customer come up with, some happen before the job starts, some along the way.

[480sparky]

The biggest problem I have with square foot pricing is you can't use the same $/ft² for a tract home as you do for a high-end custom.

My cost for a 200a underground 40sp/40cir service is the same for an 1,500 ft² spec home as it is for a 5,000 ft² custom.

Square foot pricing probably works well in new developments where there's a good relationship between the builder and EC, and all the homes are roughly the same size and have the same electrical bell & whistles.

But there will always be those who insist on square-foot pricing thier work, and those who will resist it. I equate it to the ground-up/ground-down issue.

[satcom]

It's nothing personal - it's just business.;)

I have yet to have someone explain to me how to accurately price a home by the sq. ft.

I've been only been on this board for a little while and haven't read every post on the sq. ft vs. other methods for pricing...but every post pretty much ends up the same:

How do you arrive at the sq. ft. price?

The result is either:
- based on my historical data, which is never revealed
- dead silence and we never hear about sq. ft. pricing again from that poster.

Either way, we get no answer.

I guess the answer to your question of pricing a service will go unanswered as the vast majority of ECs here use a method other than sq.ft. for pricing....and those that do use sq.ft. pricing guard that secret with their lives.

Just show us how it works, and please tell us where you buy a square foot of cable, and how you cost, installing a square foot of cable.

It is an insult to the trade professionals, that have mastered cost estimating, to project Sq foot as a method of pricing, electrical projects.

Quote: "There is no shame in sq ft pricing as long as you are aware of what you are charging and what it is you are providing for that charge."

Exactly!

A lot of the guys on here had a hard ti,e learning how to cost jobs, many of them bark because they want to help, and they tell it like it is.

[elvis_931]

All of the builders around here want a sq.ft price when they ask what I charge. They ask the same of all the electricians who give them a price. I agree;for industrial you cannot price work by the sq.ft. It does work pretty well in residential though. Not necessarily the best, or worst, but it does work. Here is how I do it:
The builder asks me: What do you charge /sq.ft?-- I buy materials; You buy materials.
If you buy materials and I provide labor only it is...$.
This number is based on my overhead- Employees on the job, estimated time to complete job, tools, insurance, plus desired profit! I take this number and divide it by the sq.footage of the average size house in the area and get a /sqft price that it quite profitable. If I get a small house to wire it pays better. If I get and average size house to wire, it pays what I want. If I get a larger house it pays what I want still. Anything custom costs extra /opening.

[480sparky]

My labor goes up if the GC buys the material.

Problem I have with GC doing that is they never get what I need, so I spend more time on the job. They always want to buy the cheapest of everything.... service gear, can lights, and device boxes are always not up to par. Some stuff just won't pass inspecition, other is just too time-consuming to work with. They think they're saving money, but they're really spending more in the long run. But that's just more in my pocket...:smile:

[celtic]

Here is how I do it:
The builder asks me: What do you charge /sq.ft?-- I buy materials; You buy materials.
If you buy materials and I provide labor only it is...$.
This number is based on my overhead- Employees on the job, estimated time to complete job, tools, insurance, plus desired profit! I take this number and divide it by the sq.footage of the average size house in the area and get a /sqft price that it quite profitable. If I get a small house to wire it pays better. If I get and average size house to wire, it pays what I want. If I get a larger house it pays what I want still. Anything custom costs extra /opening.

Still has no numbers attached to it....like I said:


I have yet to have someone explain to me how to accurately price a home by the sq. ft.

..... every post pretty much ends up the same:

How do you arrive at the sq. ft. price?

The result is either:
- based on my historical data, which is never revealed
- dead silence and we never hear about sq. ft. pricing again from that poster.

Either way, we get no answer.

[electricmanscott]

My labor goes up if the GC buys the material.
:


When the GC wants to buy the electrical materials to save himslef a few bucks, I ask who's buying the construction materials to save the homeower a few bucks.

[footerr]

I've oftened wondered how others do the sq.ft way. Here's how I've been doing it. I use mulipliers, starting out with 2.5 x sq.ft, that's for a no-frills one story, no basement. Total costs for a 2000 sq.ft house is $5,000. As the "frills are added into the equation, I start adding tenths of a %. For a 2000 sq.ft house with a basement, I go with 2.7 x sq.ft, depending on how finished the basement is going to be. I take into consideration of where the panel is going to be. Is it on the first floor or in the basement. Same theory applies to a two story house, where the panel is. On two story houses I start at 2.8-3.0 x sq. ft. Points are added for hot tubs, spa's, outdoor lighting, size of garage and whether it needs "workshop type circuits". Other factors that cover my labor are points added for cathedral ceiling lights/fans, can lights and how many. I take into thought,"is there alot of 3-way/4-way circuits? I assigned values to all of these things, add them up and multiply by sq.ft. I seem to be making money with this and usually hit middle of the road against other EC's.
Just my humble thoughts.

P.S. Hope all had a Merry Christmas, and have a fun and safe New Year.

[elvis_931]

Still has no numbers attached to it....like I said:
Of course not. Everyone else's numbers will differ from mine and each others. The point is: you can make good money on sq.ft pricing same as /opening or line item pricing. Like it or not. You said no one who does sq.ft pricing has ever showed how they do it. So I showed you how I do it.

[celtic]

You said no one who does sq.ft pricing has ever showed how they do it. So I showed you how I do it.

No offense, but that was all fluff and no substance.


On the other hand...
I've oftened wondered how others do the sq.ft way. Here's how I've been doing it. I use mulipliers, starting out with 2.5 x sq.ft, that's for a no-frills one story, no basement. Total costs for a 2000 sq.ft house is $5,000.

...shows us some numbers.
Plenty of substance.


I may or may not agree with footerr's numbers - but at least it shows us something a little more solid than just using a Ouija board.