How long did it take you to really get the business up and running?

[bjp_ne_elec]

I'd like to hear from you folks out there, in regard to how long it took you to really get things up and running. And then maybe a description of how the first six (6) months went - and the next six (6) months, etc.

Things have been pretty slow, and I'm bummin'. Wanted to get some ideas from you guys - looking to see how you really got things going.

Thanks

[mdshunk]

I'd say about 4 to 5 years. Takes that long to build a customer base.

[emahler]

a lot of variables at play...

what type of work? any previous connections? - i know guys who do custom homes who started day one with 10 employees and $1mil in work waiting for them...

how much capital do you have? how much can you spend on advertising? - there is an outfit around here who spent 10+ yrs as a 1-2 truck operation. They teamed up with a plumber and hvac, got an infusion of capital, spent $500,000 a year in yellowpage advertising and 4 yrs later have 40+ trucks and 80+ employees...

for a 1 man, shoe string startup...MD is pretty close...

[mdshunk]

True enough. If I had a half-million bucks, the curve would have been shorter. I wouldn't have wanted to go that route anyhow, because I have no idea how I'd have staffed such an operation. I'd be darned lucky if I run across one guy per year worth hiring.

[bjp_ne_elec]

Emahler - I'm talking a one man shop. Don't have many connections, as I'm new to the area where I now live. That's what I'm struggling with - as to how to "break the ice" so to speak. I'd like to get more commercial jobs, thinking it might a better chance for repeat customers. The new home starts around here are really slowing down, and it can get pretty cut throat.

How big is your shop? Did you start out one man, and then grow? At some point I'd like to be able to hire a person or two, leaving more time for bookkeeping, estimating, etc. for myself - but I've been struggling keeping myself busy.

Just getting started, so the advertising budget is pretty slow. Where do you guys feel that I can get my most "bang for the buck"? Do I run some ads in the newspapers in those Business Directories?

Oh - one more for Emahler - where did they get their infusion of capital from?

Thanks

[mdshunk]

Do I run some ads in the newspapers in those Business Directories?
I'm not sure if that's good advice or bad advice, but that's what I did. I had a couple cheap ads in a couple little local papers every day for years. Costs about the same amount as a latte every day. It seems like after you get a certain amount of people in your client base, things just sorta snowball after that. Referrals, I guess.

[480sparky]

I started on my own full time 2 years ago. I already had two builders I did resi for. I now have 4 builders, 2 house flippers, 2 small remodelers and a school disctrict that keep me busy Not swamped, but busy enough.

[emahler]

Emahler - I'm talking a one man shop. Don't have many connections, as I'm new to the area where I now live. That's what I'm struggling with - as to how to "break the ice" so to speak. I'd like to get more commercial jobs, thinking it might a better chance for repeat customers. The new home starts around here are really slowing down, and it can get pretty cut throat.

it is cut throat...it'll keep you busy, but difficult to make money off of. Now, you can follow the Nexstar/ESI route (without joining) and offer the service to the customers. That's a possibility. For small commercial, make sales calls...If you have a job in a strip mall, go into the rest of the stores and introduce yourself...takes 15 mins and you never know. But whatever route you go, remember that you are ALWAYS selling...


How big is your shop? Did you start out one man, and then grow? At some point I'd like to be able to hire a person or two, leaving more time for bookkeeping, estimating, etc. for myself - but I've been struggling keeping myself busy.

i'm a little different...i'm a 2nd generation idiot...before I came along fulltime, we were a 50+/- man union shop. That died in 1991 (anyone around at that time will remember the turmoil in the industry)...in about 1996-1997, I got into the business with my father helping me. We started on a shoestring, and didn't hit stride until about 2001 or so. We are now non-union, up until about 12-18 months ago we were 95% service work (60% commercial, 40% residential) and fluctuate between 6 and 12 field employees. In the past 12-18 months, we have changed to about 50% service (90% commercial, 10% residential) and 50% commercial new construction/TI's/etc. We have also been getting into the commercial HVAC and Refrigeration sectors.


Just getting started, so the advertising budget is pretty slow. Where do you guys feel that I can get my most "bang for the buck"? Do I run some ads in the newspapers in those Business Directories?

look into a series of books by J. Conrad Levinson called "Guerilla Marketing" There are tons of low/no cost ways to advertise and market. But mostly, you have to have faith in yourself to sell yourself. If you sit back and wait for the phone to ring, it's gonna take awhile...go out and sell yourself.



Oh - one more for Emahler - where did they get their infusion of capital from?

Thanks

wish I knew:D...they are in Satcom's neighborhood, he might know...

[mdshunk]

I've had people completely unrelated to the electrical business interesting in investing from time to time. That doesn't really appeal to me, because money always comes with strings. It will be like having a partner who wants a say that doesn't do any real work. Just my opinion. I'd rather own what I have.

[emahler]

I've had people completely unrelated to the electrical business interesting in investing from time to time. That doesn't really appeal to me, because money always comes with strings. It will be like having a partner who wants a say that doesn't do any real work. Just my opinion. I'd rather own what I have.

i guess it depends on the amount and what they offer....

i'd rather own 10% of a $10 million company than 100% of a $1mil company...it works out to the same gross dollar amount, but one gives me all the liabilities, one spreads them out...

[satcom]

I'd like to hear from you folks out there, in regard to how long it took you to really get things up and running. And then maybe a description of how the first six (6) months went - and the next six (6) months, etc.

Things have been pretty slow, and I'm bummin'. Wanted to get some ideas from you guys - looking to see how you really got things going.

Thanks

I went in just as a housing bust was starting, and it it took a good 4 years for the housing industry to come back to life, so jobs were hard to come by, so many of the EC's were bailing out, and others were taking on part time work doing just about anything to bring in some money, until things picked up, the good news was, there were plenty of auctions for trucks and tools, some of the stuff could be bought for 10 cents on the dollar. all areas of the industry were down commercial and industrial also felt the slow down, just make sure you have eniough put on the side for bad times, so you can down size and ride out the bumps.

[goldstar]

If you're well capitalized when you start out then emahler's description is right on the money. But, if you're starting out with very little like many of us have then Marc's version is probably more accurate. I've been in my own business for about 12 years and that seems to be about the right time line.

I'm sure many guys have stories to tell but I sub-contracted for other EC's for several years before I got my first house to wire. It was small (probably 1500 to 2K sq ft) and I used a Milwaukee hand drill to drill all the holes. Needless to say, I burnt it out (didn't have a Hole-Hawg yet - couldn't afford it).

If you can get a few (guardian angel type) GC's to keep you busy that might be a good start. Someone gave me this advice years ago and I've taken it seriously - Don't hook up with a track builder. You'll have to take the jobs real cheap and they'll always keep you 4 or 5 houses behind in payment. When you finally get to the last house they close up shop as ABC contracting and open up as XYZ contracting the next day and you can't get your money.

Just my opinion.

[220/221]

A LONG time ago I sent out a simple letter to every HVAC guy in the phone book...about 300 at the time knowing that they occaisionally come across elec work that they diodn't want or could not do.

For the youngsters, the "phone book" was a printed source of information, updated yearly, containing everyone with phone service. It was the olden days.


I also sent the same amount of basically the same letter to all electrical contractors trying to pick up any junk/extra work that they didn't want.


I got a few calls from the HVAC guys, nothing that really stands out but I got a CRAPLOAD of calls from the EC's and one of them lead to a good contract that spanned almost a decade.

[Energy-Miser]

A LONG time ago I sent out a simple letter to every HVAC guy in the phone book...about 300 at the time knowing that they occaisionally come across elec work that they diodn't want or could not do.

For the youngsters, the "phone book" was a printed source of information, updated yearly, containing everyone with phone service. It was the olden days.


I also sent the same amount of basically the same letter to all electrical contractors trying to pick up any junk/extra work that they didn't want.


I got a few calls from the HVAC guys, nothing that really stands out but I got a CRAPLOAD of calls from the EC's and one of them lead to a good contract that spanned almost a decade.
Good idea, i might want to try this. In your experience, didn't some of the EC's see you as competition? Did you only send letter to those of them you knew and were your friendly competions, or did you just blanket them all, picked out from the local phone booK?

[Energy-Miser]

Emahler - I'm talking a one man shop. Don't have many connections, as I'm new to the area where I now live. That's what I'm struggling with - as to how to "break the ice" so to speak. I'd like to get more commercial jobs, thinking it might a better chance for repeat customers. The new home starts around here are really slowing down, and it can get pretty cut throat.

How big is your shop? Did you start out one man, and then grow? At some point I'd like to be able to hire a person or two, leaving more time for bookkeeping, estimating, etc. for myself - but I've been struggling keeping myself busy.

Just getting started, so the advertising budget is pretty slow. Where do you guys feel that I can get my most "bang for the buck"? Do I run some ads in the newspapers in those Business Directories?

Oh - one more for Emahler - where did they get their infusion of capital from?

Thanks
I have tried many different advertising routes: community phone book, craigs list (free), penny saver, valpak, bluebook, google, etc. To my experience, the best bang for the buck was with google online advertising. You have absolute control over the message, the geographic location of where it goes, the amount you want to budget for it, etc. Nothing is pre-paid, no long term contract, pay as you go, stop any time. I have had many inquiries from it. e/m

[mdshunk]

To my experience, the best bang for the buck was with google online advertising. You have absolute control over the message, the geographic location of where it goes, the amount you want to budget for it, etc. Nothing is pre-paid, no long term contract, pay as you go, stop any time. I have had many inquiries from it. e/m
I've never used (or even been tempted to use) the Internet to find a local service provider of any type. For that reason, I am suspicious whether net advertising would work in my market. I suspect that it is more effective in metropolitan areas.

[220/221]

In your experience, didn't some of the EC's see you as competition? Did you only send letter to those of them you knew and were your friendly competions, or did you just blanket them all, picked out from the local phone booK?

I'm sure SOME may have worried about me staeling their clients but obviously some did not.

The ones that called me just gave me the stuff they didn't want anyway.

I sent a letter to EVERY name in the book...about 300 at the time (1980)

[brian john]

3-4 years, in the first year or so I was ready to give it up on a daily basis, first year or two my men made more money than I did, went weeks at a time with no check, lost insurance, yada yada yada. But it finally started to work out.

23 years later I am still am not convinced it will work and avoid vacations.

[Greg Swartz]

I started the business in March of 2006, and went solo in Feb 2007... yep, that's this year. I've had my share of ups and downs.

I started off well with a decent commercial project. (For me that was $10k) and had some little side work for a bunch of people I had to take care of. Getting paid from contractors and businesses was hard. Especially getting paid on time...

After a month, I started using lead services like BidClerk ($40 / month) and ServiceMagic (up to $300 / month). They provided leads... so, most of the time, the customer wanted the work done. That's why they came to the website and posted their want. The problem was, there were at least 3 other contractors (ServiceMagic) looking at the same project, and up to 50 other contractors (BidClerk). ServiceMagic contractors were small, and used to working for near Journeyman wage, and not business mindset. (I had one guy bid $900 on a 900 square foot basement. He beat me by a long shot. I'm GLAD I didn't win.) BidClerk had more contractor minded companies looking at the projects. I called homeowners, and beat every contractor easily (to my own shame.)

I signed up with BlueBook, and got in with other contractors. Generals mostly. Some small, some large. I now get invitations to bid projects on a routine basis. The problem is, most of those projects only pay on a monthly basis. You have to invoice this month for the work you completed the whole of last month, to get paid next month...

I got in with some other contractors. They liked my work, and we are now their sole EC.

So, sometimes, it's hard.

I had so much work the last 3 months, I had to hire 3 guys... On Monday last week, I fired the last one...

So, I got ads out right now looking for more help.

I don't have much money in the bank, pay everything with credit cards, pay them off in full every month (almost always anywyas.) and have a good rapport with my bank. The contractors I do work with on a consistent basis pay me within 2 weeks, so that's a nice thing.

So... keep trucking. Don't give up. EVER!

[Energy-Miser]

3-4 years, in the first year or so I was ready to give it up on a daily basis, first year or two my men made more money than I did, went weeks at a time with no check, lost insurance, yada yada yada. But it finally started to work out.

23 years later I am still am not convinced it will work and avoid vacations.
Are you glad you stuck it out, or wish you had gone back to work for someone else? e/m

[Energy-Miser]

I've never used (or even been tempted to use) the Internet to find a local service provider of any type. For that reason, I am suspicious whether net advertising would work in my market. I suspect that it is more effective in metropolitan areas.
They have a way of locating the searcher's location, and will only show advertisement for shops that are local to you. I do think that it might work better in metropolitan areas, if for no other reason, but for the fact that you have a much larger number of potential searchers in a given radius from your shop. e/m.

[brian john]

Would not change it for the world.

Previously I had worked for 5 contractors, one went bankrupt, one would not give me a raise though they said I deserved it, giving me a raise would put me over the top of longer term employees, I quit. Next guy turned out to be a crook. Number 4 company fired me for having a big mouth, I tried to tell them how to run their business (and they DID know better than me). Last company we (4 of us) came in on Monday and were told the testing division was going to be shut down on Friday. I asked what are we suppose to do and I got the response "I really do not give a F*** what you do now or in the future." The guy that fired us was let go at a later date.

I do not think I could really work for anyone else due to my hardheadedness.

3 of the 5 companies I worked for are now my customers.

[ptonsparky]

Being the newbi in town will be a struggle. Phone book and decent easy to read name, etc on truck will help. Not a magnetic sign that happens to be stuck hap hazardly on the side of your fishin' truck.

Make sure your rates are high enough for the area you are in. I had to add $10/hr a few years ago just because someone decided to take me for a ride. Guess what, no one complained. I am close to the norm here, not that of DC.

Talking to your competitors does not hurt at all. I don't have a bucket truck but I do have a fault locator. I don't mind passing on work to someone that is capable.

[Rewire]

I spent several months in the planning stage before I opened my shop and several years of saving up money.I used my savings for working capitol the first six months I had a 2500.00 limit at the supply house so I dipped into these funds to pay for materials the jobs were slow coming and expenses often were more than income I found out that when people talk about loosing money the first years they are talking about REAL money.

[bkludecke]

I've heard it said that the way to make a small fortune in this business is to start with a large one.

After getting my EC license in 1978 I moved to a new town and hung out my shingle. I pounded the pavement, worked for peanuts, avoided debt, lived frugally, and worked as many hours as I could. My wife finally took over the book-keeping (whew) and after about 5 years I had the confidence to hire a helper.

Since then I've had anywhere from 2-6 men at any one time. We've been through a few economic cycles. My company is probably the best know of it's kind in the area and I still get paranoid about business. My prices are up where htey need to be but when the others get slow they bid/work cheap and we all suffer.

I'll be laying off at least two guys next week and it's really the hardest thing I have to do. But that's business.

[wireman71]

I'd goto work for someone, get your ducks in a row. Do jobs on the side and weekends, legitamently, but without your employer knowing if they care. That's where I'd start. If you can't get the "sidework" and you don't have contacts at least you have a job paying the bills.

[Tiger Electrical]

I started 23 years ago, laid off and clueless. I made $2400.00 the first 6 months. Before I figured some thing out and built up a client base, I missed a lot of paychecks. 18 years in business and I had a bad year and missed a few more paychecks. Sometimes business runs smooth, but often it's a broken machine and you have to fix it or pay someone else to fix it. If you ask anyone in business, they have probably paid thousands of dollars on some bright idea that fell flat.

Dave

[Rewire]

I'd goto work for someone, get your ducks in a row. Do jobs on the side and weekends, legitamently, but without your employer knowing if they care. That's where I'd start. If you can't get the "sidework" and you don't have contacts at least you have a job paying the bills.
I tell everyone that works for me they either work for me or they work for themselves,you can't do both. I make it clear if they do 'side" work they are fired ,I am not going to pay you and compete against you.

[brian john]

I never did side work, it is not fair to your employer. (unless he approves).
Nothing makes you succeed or want to succeed like only getting one check.

[bkludecke]

I tell everyone that works for me they either work for me or they work for themselves,you can't do both. I make it clear if they do 'side" work they are fired ,I am not going to pay you and compete against you.

That's EXACTLY the way it is in my shop too. Guys doing side work usually work much cheaper than we do. Care to guess why? Because I'm already paying for health insurance, vacation/pto, a 40hr workweek, worker comp ins....................... The they undercut my prices? Not.

[growler]

Guys doing side work usually work much cheaper than we do. Care to guess why? Because I'm already paying for health insurance, vacation/pto, a 40hr workweek, worker comp ins..


You left out material. Some side work has real low overhead.:grin: :grin:

[220/221]

I ENCOURAGE side work as long as it's not MY customers/contacts. I want them to know how easy they have it here with all the tools, labor and support we provide. Two guys have left to start on their own. One of them is back after a couple years.

I did side jobs from day ONE.....well, after a couple months anyway. I couldn't get by on $1.25 an hour or 4 bucks or 6 bucks or 9 or 12. Whatever wages were at the time didn't seem to be enough for me.


I learned early on that I could make as much on a weekend as I could all week long. Yes...unlicenced, uninsured and tax free.



My guys don't belong to me. When they clock out they can do as they please. I count my blessings every day when they show up for work because there is only so much I can produce by myself and it seems to dwindle with every passing year.


You left out material. Some side work has real low overhead

I fired a guy for stealing a few items from a truck. He was caught by a security camera that HE installed. Hellooooo!

[emahler]

I ENCOURAGE side work as long as it's not MY customers/contacts. I want them to know how easy they have it here with all the tools, labor and support we provide. Two guys have left to start on their own. One of them is back after a couple years.

I did side jobs from day ONE.....well, after a couple months anyway. I couldn't get by on $1.25 an hour or 4 bucks or 6 bucks or 9 or 12. I learned early on that I could make as much on a weekend as I could all week long. Yes...unlicenced, uninsured and tax free.

Whatever wages were at the time didn't seem to be enough for me.

My guys don't belong to me. When they clock out they can do as they please. I count my blessings every day when they show up for work because there is only so much I can produce by myself and it seems to dwindle with every passing year.

220, no offense meant, but you are part of the problem...i'm glad it works out for you, but your guys doing sidework are taking my customers...and my guys doing side work, are taking your customers...

[220/221]

I make it clear if they do 'side" work they are fired


I had a hard azz old boss that looked just like Ross Perot. He told me "If you talk about how much you get paid, I'll fire you".

That day I left my paycheck on the truck seat where the guy who had been with him for a few years could see it. I think he made about 3 bucks an hour less thatn me.

It was kind of a jerk move but if the boss would have talked with me instead of threating me I would have respected his wishes.


220, no offense meant, but you are part of the problem...i'm glad it works out for you, but your guys doing sidework are taking my customers...and my guys doing side work, are taking your customers...


A) I don't think there IS a problem. I could use a bit more work, especially high dollar easy work, but I have never suffered from a lack of work.

B) I don't think I am entitled to ANY work. If someone took one of my best clients away I would be pissed but the reality is, this is a free market and competition exists.

[bkludecke]

Yeah, it's a free country and a free market but when the playing field is slanted against me I can really get my back up.

[220/221]

when the playing field is slanted against me I can really get my back up.



That is what drives us to succeed. When things are stacked against us we find a way around them.

Maybe my optimism comes from being born and raised in a large metro area. The economy always goes up and down but there always seems to be plenty of work if you stay diversefied and are able to change with the times.

[boboelectric]

A LONG time ago I sent out a simple letter to every HVAC guy in the phone book...about 300 at the time knowing that they occaisionally come across elec work that they diodn't want or could not do.

For the youngsters, the "phone book" was a printed source of information, updated yearly, containing everyone with phone service. It was the olden days.


I also sent the same amount of basically the same letter to all electrical contractors trying to pick up any junk/extra work that they didn't want.


I got a few calls from the HVAC guys, nothing that really stands out but I got a CRAPLOAD of calls from the EC's and one of them lead to a good contract that spanned almost a decade.
My phone book ad (small), always come thru monthly,to make my overhead expenses.

[Energy-Miser]

That's EXACTLY the way it is in my shop too. Guys doing side work usually work much cheaper than we do. Care to guess why? Because I'm already paying for health insurance, vacation/pto, a 40hr workweek, worker comp ins....................... The they undercut my prices? Not.
How do you know if they are doing side work though? I don't know how short of putting GPS on the trucks so that at least someone will not be using my truck to do side work. But that is very expensive, not to mention time consuming, tracking the trucks, etc. e/m.

[emahler]

I had a hard azz old boss that looked just like Ross Perot. He told me "If you talk about how much you get paid, I'll fire you".

That day I left my paycheck on the truck seat where the guy who had been with him for a few years could see it. I think he made about 3 bucks an hour less thatn me.

It was kind of a jerk move but if the boss would have talked with me instead of threating me I would have respected his wishes.





A) I don't think there IS a problem. I could use a bit more work, especially high dollar easy work, but I have never suffered from a lack of work.

B) I don't think I am entitled to ANY work. If someone took one of my best clients away I would be pissed but the reality is, this is a free market and competition exists.

i should qualify that my thoughts are based on unlicensed guys working on the side...not licensed, insured, legitimate contractors who also work for someone else. Ironically, if they are not stealing from their boss, their OH per man hour is not much less than mine...

but to not differentiate between the 2 is like forgetting the word "illegal" when talking about immigration...

so, there is a problem with unlicensed guys working nights and weekends for cash....

[mdshunk]

i should qualify that my thoughts are based on unlicensed guys working on the side...not licensed, insured, legitimate contractors who also work for someone else.
Agreed. I have no issues with guys doing side work, as long as they're complying with the law as it already exists in their localities. I am aware of companies that have a moonlighting policy, whereas all moonlighting is prohibited. That's fine, and the men who work there aparently have agreed to that. They're free to work someplace else if they want to moonlight.

[growler]

How do you know if they are doing side work though? I don't know how short of putting GPS on the trucks so that at least someone will not be using my truck to do side work. But that is very expensive, not to mention time consuming, tracking the trucks, etc. e/m.

If your employees are useing your trucks to do side work then sooner or later a customer will call your shop and complain about the work then you will notice that your company didn't even do that job.

Another indication of side work is when people are buying items on your account at the supply house and paying cash ( if you are getting any discount ). Now with Home Depot they may not bother even useng the supply house, about the same price .

If your guys never want to work any overtime they are either lazy, being paid to much or doing side work.:grin: The last comment was just for fun.:grin:

[480sparky]

If your employees are useing your trucks to do side work then sooner or later a customer will call your shop and complain about the work then you will notice that your company didn't even do that job.

I've seen this happen. One place I used to work for got a phone call from a guy wanting to know when we were going to finish his basement. THe poor secretary spent hours trying to find out who this guy was, why he was calling us, and had no clue.

Turned out, one of the guys not only used the company van to go to the (side) job (75 one-way miles away, no less!), but was using company material!

[Energy-Miser]

If your employees are useing your trucks to do side work then sooner or later a customer will call your shop and complain about the work then you will notice that your company didn't even do that job.

Another indication of side work is when people are buying items on your account at the supply house and paying cash ( if you are getting any discount ). Now with Home Depot they may not bother even useng the supply house, about the same price .

If your guys never want to work any overtime they are either lazy, being paid to much or doing side work.:grin: The last comment was just for fun.:grin:
I like the last comment, because I can eliminate lazy and overpaid, leaving me with well, the moonlighter!! e/m

[220/221]

How do you know if they are doing side work though? I don't know how short of putting GPS on the trucks so that at least someone will not be using my truck to do side work. But that is very expensive, not to mention time consuming, tracking the trucks, etc

Heh heh...if they are using MY stuff I'll kick their ass, physically AND legally.

I keep all my trucks (5) at the shop and they DO have GPS tracking.

[tyha]

i was laid off from my last job as a project manager just before the company nose dived. I knew for years before that, that I could run my own shop better than the people I had worked for in the past. So with about ten grand in the bank i joined one of those bid lead services (commercial only) and by the trime I landed my first project , 3 months later, I was flat broke from living expenses. But I had my brother and my best friend, both of whom I had gotten in the trade and trained myself for years. They agreed to work for spending money until I got my first check. I paid their important bills with my credit card. It was extremly ruff the first year and into the second but i learned what to do and what not to do. What type of jobs are worth going after and which ones aren't. Now years later neither my brother or friend are with me but i have 14 other great guys and am headed in the right direction. As far as getting more work when I can see a slow down comming I go straight to the offices of the generals in the area that do our type of work and explain how we can have a mutually beneficial relationship. I have never cut any ECs throat and never will. I have done a few jobs around break even to stay busy and have lost money on stupid mistakes but i learned that thats part of what we do and the longer you survive the better prepared you are to deal with it. Also, it is very important that you see slowdowns months ahead with ample time to combat them.

[Rewire]

I had a hard azz old boss that looked just like Ross Perot. He told me "If you talk about how much you get paid, I'll fire you".

That day I left my paycheck on the truck seat where the guy who had been with him for a few years could see it. I think he made about 3 bucks an hour less thatn me.

It was kind of a jerk move but if the boss would have talked with me instead of threating me I would have respected his wishes.





A) I don't think there IS a problem. I could use a bit more work, especially high dollar easy work, but I have never suffered from a lack of work.

B) I don't think I am entitled to ANY work. If someone took one of my best clients away I would be pissed but the reality is, this is a free market and competition exists.
I don't like paying my competition and that is exactly what you are doing when you have employees doing side work,most side work comes from your current customers who now are no longer your customers.I look at it like this my money paid for the advertising the customer saw ,my money paid for the phone the customer called,my money paid for the truck that carried you to the customer so if that customer wants you to come back as a side job you say no or hit the bricks.

[bkludecke]

How do you know if they are doing side work though? I don't know how short of putting GPS on the trucks so that at least someone will not be using my truck to do side work. But that is very expensive, not to mention time consuming, tracking the trucks, etc. e/m.

I operate in a small isolated area. Gossip is the usually the downfall of anyone who cheats.

Many years ago I got a call from a HO who had a problem with a circuit in a room addition on a house we had wired. I didn't remember a room add'n but I went out anyway. I asked the HO who wired the add'n & he said it was the same guys (my employees) who wired the house. I told him to call them for the troubleshooting. That was strike one for them. Strike two was a new home which I had also bid. There was no need for a strike three.

I agree that I can't know everything that goes on on the weekends. So when I do catch soneone moonlighting I figure it's just one of many.

BTW I don't care if they moonlight in other trades or deliver pizza or pracice law on their own time. If they do electrical work for me then they are expected to be loyal.

Now here's the hard part. Right now we are slow and not always getting our 40 in. I have a hard time telling a guy to go home early and then saying he can't do a side job. We deal with those on a case by case basis.

[220/221]

most side work comes from your current customers who now are no longer your customers.

I don't think you can substantiate that claim.

I did side work all my life and never took any clients away from my employer.

My deal with my employers covered the time he needed me 8 hours a day, five days a week. When I was off the clock I felt free to live my life however I saw fit.

I still remember my first electrical side job (other that troubleshooting) circa 1973.

I had about 3 months experience roping houses and gave a quote thru a landscaper I knew for some back yard lighting. About 200' of rigid underground with some bell boxes, par holders and a few pagoda lights. I never bent a stick of pipe in my life but I had dug plenty of trenches and knew basic circuitry. I think I got about $400 and spent $150 on materials (circa 1974). It was a one day job and I was gonna be rich!!

I specifically remember looking at the relatively small pile of materials thinking "I am going to turn this stuff into some CASH!!


Ahhhh.....memory lane.

[Rewire]

I don't think you can substantiate that claim.

I did side work all my life and never took any clients away from my employer.

My deal with my employers covered the time he needed me 8 hours a day, five days a week. When I was off the clock I felt free to live my life however I saw fit.

I still remember my first electrical side job (other that troubleshooting) circa 1973.

I had about 3 months experience roping houses and gave a quote thru a landscaper I knew for some back yard lighting. About 200' of rigid underground with some bell boxes, par holders and a few pagoda lights. I never bent a stick of pipe in my life but I had dug plenty of trenches and knew basic circuitry. I think I got about $400 and spent $150 on materials (circa 1974). It was a one day job and I was gonna be rich!!

I specifically remember looking at the relatively small pile of materials thinking "I am going to turn this stuff into some CASH!!


Ahhhh.....memory lane.
Most guys if being honest will admit they aquire most side work through relationships established buy their employer and most will admit contact was made while on the clock. Also most side work is preformed at greatly reduced prices. If you choose to bite the hand that feeds you you have the right as for taking jobs from your employer side work puts you in direct compitition with them but with much less overhead so the idea that jobs were not lost to your employer is false as for it being after hours if what you do after hours affects my business then it is my business .

[480sparky]

Most guys if being honest will admit they aquire most side work through relationships established buy their employer and most will admit contact was made while on the clock. Also most side work is preformed at greatly reduced prices. If you choose to bite the hand that feeds you you have the right as for taking jobs from your employer side work puts you in direct compitition with them but with much less overhead so the idea that jobs were not lost to your employer is false as for it being after hours if what you do after hours affects my business then it is my business .

You're assuming moon-lighters automatically take customers from their employers. In the many years I spent as an hourly-paid electrician working for someone else, I never took my boss' customers away from him, on the clock OR off!

Now, if my (and I say MY, meaning the one I pay for) phone rings at 7 PM, and Joe Sixpack want me to do some work for him, that's fine with me, as long as Joe is not my boss' customer. If Joe is my boss' client, I tell Joe to call the office tomorrow.

[GilbeSpark]

I've done more side jobs than I can count or remember. As of right now I am not licensed but am actively working on it. I can honestly say, without saying this just because it's me, that I am a very good electrician. Recently I stopped doing sidework just for liability's sake, which to be honest never really thought about much before. I'm good at what I do, but not stupid.

I can also honestly say I've never stolen any of my company's business. The co I work for doesn't do service work for anyone other than it's builders or past customers. Everything I've gotten while at a job was a neighbor coming over asking for something, not a current customer asking me if I moonlight. I've turned down SEVERAL of those. 99% of my work came from friends, their friends, my neighbors and their friends. All of it was done on my own time.

Never stolen any company material or company time. If I ever needed something oddball or just real bad I'd go into the office and ask "how much would it be if I bought xxxx and xxxx from you?". But 99.99999 of material came from HD or Lowes. I kept all reciepts so if ever questioned I'd have proof nothing was stolen. I even bought my own wirenuts and staples. Not kidding. I've never been questioned about any of it.

A company can't dictate what someone does in their own time. If I'm not on the clock, they've got NO say in what I do. What, you want to tell me I can't eat cheeseburgers next? Why not, it makes me less healthy and I could have a heart attack and that would cause insurance rates to go up and cost the company more. If you fire the wrong person for doing sidework they'll sue you for wrongfull termination and win. You better have them sign something before you hire them. Even then, can an unlicensed person really classify as "competetion" before a judge?

If you have honest employees then sidework doesn't cost a company anything. In fact, it helps the company. It makes for better employees for those who care to be better. When you get into a pickle at a side job you learn to think and work in more creative ways to solve problems and get things done. If you screw up, it's your own fault and you pay for it. You can take that knowledge back to the company and be better prepared for things that might go wrong.

Hire good, honest people and you'll have no problems.

My advice to anyone starting out is surround yourself with good, positive people. Hire the best. It'll cost you more upfront but will make you lots more down the road.

[emahler]

I've done more side jobs than I can count or remember. As of right now I am not licensed but am actively working on it. I can honestly say, without saying this just because it's me, that I am a very good electrician. Recently I stopped doing sidework just for liability's sake, which to be honest never really thought about much before. I'm good at what I do, but not stupid.

I can also honestly say I've never stolen any of my company's business. The co I work for doesn't do service work for anyone other than it's builders or past customers. Everything I've gotten while at a job was a neighbor coming over asking for something, not a current customer asking me if I moonlight. I've turned down SEVERAL of those. 99% of my work came from friends, their friends, my neighbors and their friends. All of it was done on my own time.

Never stolen any company material or company time. If I ever needed something oddball or just real bad I'd go into the office and ask "how much would it be if I bought xxxx and xxxx from you?". But 99.99999 of material came from HD or Lowes. I kept all reciepts so if ever questioned I'd have proof nothing was stolen. I even bought my own wirenuts and staples. Not kidding. I've never been questioned about any of it.

sounds noble...


A company can't dictate what someone does in their own time. If I'm not on the clock, they've got NO say in what I do. What, you want to tell me I can't eat cheeseburgers next? Why not, it makes me less healthy and I could have a heart attack and that would cause insurance rates to go up and cost the company more.

when eating hamburgers becomes illegal.....


If you fire the wrong person for doing sidework they'll sue you for wrongfull termination and win. You better have them sign something before you hire them. Even then, can an unlicensed person really classify as "competetion" before a judge?

doesn't unlicensed classify as criminal before a judge?


If you have honest employees then sidework doesn't cost a company anything. In fact, it helps the company. It makes for better employees for those who care to be better. When you get into a pickle at a side job you learn to think and work in more creative ways to solve problems and get things done. If you screw up, it's your own fault and you pay for it. You can take that knowledge back to the company and be better prepared for things that might go wrong.

here is another way to look at it...100 guys in a given area do small side jobs (add recessed lights, service upgrades, whatever)....that's 100 less jobs for the contractors that do that type of work...they need jobs, so they go after larger jobs...they take the larger jobs from the companies who would normally do them...these larger contractors go after bigger jobs...these are the jobs you company does...now you have 10 more contractors taking the work from your company...you get less hours, so you moonlight more...so more jobs get taken from legal contractors...etc, etc, etc...

I know, these people who hire unlicensed moonlighters would never pay a contractor anyway...blah, blah, blah...look at the big picture...

and without the proper supervision, what's to say that the moonlighter will come up with the correct solution for the pickle they are in? maybe they are developing incredibly bad habits, then they take those back to your company...how is that good?


Hire good, honest people and you'll have no problems.

My advice to anyone starting out is surround yourself with good, positive people. Hire the best. It'll cost you more upfront but will make you lots more down the road.

[boboelectric]

In the late 1970's,I worked for a guy doing industrial work in mills only.He would get calls all the time from people needing things like an outlet here or outside lights there.He (the company) couldn't acommadate them, so he let one of us look at it after hours.

[jbower]

Emahler - I'm talking a one man shop. Don't have many connections, as I'm new to the area where I now live. That's what I'm struggling with - as to how to "break the ice" so to speak. I'd like to get more commercial jobs, thinking it might a better chance for repeat customers. The new home starts around here are really slowing down, and it can get pretty cut throat.

How big is your shop? Did you start out one man, and then grow? At some point I'd like to be able to hire a person or two, leaving more time for bookkeeping, estimating, etc. for myself - but I've been struggling keeping myself busy.

Just getting started, so the advertising budget is pretty slow. Where do you guys feel that I can get my most "bang for the buck"? Do I run some ads in the newspapers in those Business Directories?

Oh - one more for Emahler - where did they get their infusion of capital from?

Thanks

My brother and myself started a part-time electrical business doing small jobs nobody wanted. we called a local news paper who will do a free interview for new business in the area. We also put business cards in the area Real Estate offices and put out fliers at local gas stations. In two years we have more work than we want, we also hired two guys part-time to help with the larger jobs. With all that being said we both have full-time jobs at a local plant doing electrical and instrumentation work. We started the business to keep up with the NEC and to have something to fall back on in the future.

[iwire]

We started the business

Is it really a business or is it a hobby?

In other words, do you pay taxes, have workers comp for the employees, pull permits, take inspections have liability insurance etc.?

[jbower]

Is it really a business or is it a hobby?

In other words, do you pay taxes, have workers comp for the employees, pull permits, take inspections have liability insurance etc.?

It's a business we pay taxes, pull permits and have liability insurance. We have less than three employees (we have two part-time employees) so we are not required to have workers comp. The business is a LLC, we are a class C contractor.

[iwire]

It's a business we pay taxes, pull permits and have liability insurance. We have less than three employees so we are not required to have workers comp. The business is a LLC, we are a class C contractor.

Cool, thanks for the reply.

[melanconelectric]

I run a two man op ( me and a helper, which i just hired 3 mos ago). I openep my bus approx. two years ago and it wasn't until 5 or 6 mos. ago that I could make a paycheck. I too was new to the area that im in but i had a brother already in the area who is a framer so that helped tremendously with recomends to GC's he worked with. I also supplemented by working on his crew as a lead carpenter to make ends meet because with him i had freedom to go run a wiring job when it came around and still come back cause he knew what it was like to start a bus. But that is a skill, or option rather, that lots of guys dont have. Have been blessed with a few GREAT GC's of my own, now. Plus i have a great friend who manages a local supplier who is now helping get my feet in the small commercial door. My advice... If you want it, go get it. Its the American Dream! P.S. only have one truck that doubles as family vehicle (car seats, DVD players, sippy cups, receptacles, pipe benders, and cover plates!), the help doesn't have a vehicle. Rides w/ me but a good kid who wants to learn!

[Rewire]

I've done more side jobs than I can count or remember.

A company can't dictate what someone does in their own time. If I'm not on the clock, they've got NO say in what I do. What, you want to tell me I can't eat cheeseburgers next? Why not, it makes me less healthy and I could have a heart attack and that would cause insurance rates to go up and cost the company more. If you fire the wrong person for doing sidework they'll sue you for wrongfull termination and win. You better have them sign something before you hire them. Even then, can an unlicensed person really classify as "competetion" before a judge
You smoke dope on your time and have a drug test on mine and see how long you are employed,If you violate company policy you can be terminated and if the company says no side work then that is grounds for termination.

[mkgrady]

It's a business we pay taxes, pull permits and have liability insurance. We have less than three employees (we have two part-time employees) so we are not required to have workers comp. The business is a LLC, we are a class C contractor.

I thought if an employer had ANY employees workers comp is required. Are you sure you're right?

What happens if one of the employees is seriously hurt on the job? If you don't provide WC isn't the employer liable for medical and disability?
\
Where WC is provided an employee can not sue an employer for medical and lost wages due to an injury. If you don't provide the WC that liability protection is not there.

[satcom]

I thought if an employer had ANY employees workers comp is required. Are you sure you're right?

What happens if one of the employees is seriously hurt on the job? If you don't provide WC isn't the employer liable for medical and disability?
\
Where WC is provided an employee can not sue an employer for medical and lost wages due to an injury. If you don't provide the WC that liability protection is not there.

It must be way different in Mass, here we pay comp, if the employee works for 10 minutes. same with unemployment and dis payments, we have had employees collect from unemployment that only had 1 day in.

[Energy-Miser]

I run a two man op ( me and a helper, which i just hired 3 mos ago). I openep my bus approx. two years ago and it wasn't until 5 or 6 mos. ago that I could make a paycheck. I too was new to the area that im in but i had a brother already in the area who is a framer so that helped tremendously with recomends to GC's he worked with. I also supplemented by working on his crew as a lead carpenter to make ends meet because with him i had freedom to go run a wiring job when it came around and still come back cause he knew what it was like to start a bus. But that is a skill, or option rather, that lots of guys dont have. Have been blessed with a few GREAT GC's of my own, now. Plus i have a great friend who manages a local supplier who is now helping get my feet in the small commercial door. My advice... If you want it, go get it. Its the American Dream! P.S. only have one truck that doubles as family vehicle (car seats, DVD players, sippy cups, receptacles, pipe benders, and cover plates!), the help doesn't have a vehicle. Rides w/ me but a good kid who wants to learn!
That's a very nice story, thanks for retelling it. e/m

[GilbeSpark]

You smoke dope on your time and have a drug test on mine and see how long you are employed,If you violate company policy you can be terminated and if the company says no side work then that is grounds for termination.

I don't do that either, but that's different. That affects your work performance and would void a worker's comp claim. Totally unrelated.

[BryanMD]

I don't do that either, but that's different. That affects your work performance and would void a worker's comp claim. Totally unrelated.

Well not *totally* unrelated, more a "straw man" argument.

I've experienced everything along the spectrum from a rule of absolutely no under any circumstances to employers who would pull a permit for me when I needed one

The funny thing I've noticed is that (in my case) the times I was doing side jobs were based on real financial need. When I was getting paid well and/or had a fair bit of OT available I wasn't doing it. hmmmm

(Stroll through Home Depot on a Friday evening and look for the folks with that "deer in the headlights" expression and you're golden)

[Rewire]

Well not *totally* unrelated, more a "straw man" argument.

I've experienced everything along the spectrum from a rule of absolutely no under any circumstances to employers who would pull a permit for me when I needed one

The funny thing I've noticed is that (in my case) the times I was doing side jobs were based on real financial need. When I was getting paid well and/or had a fair bit of OT available I wasn't doing it. hmmmm

(Stroll through Home Depot on a Friday evening and look for the folks with that "deer in the headlights" expression and you're golden)
The biggest problem with guys doing side work is very few are charging market value for the work and that drives down everybody just think if you have ten contractors with ten employees each and they all do side work that is 100 jobs done below scale and at least two people were told by each of these how much they paid so 300 people now think we should work for 25 bucks an hour.So I bid a job at 85.00 per hour and they look at me like I am crazy and call the guy who does it "on the side and never takes work from his boss"

[emahler]

The biggest problem with guys doing side work is very few are charging market value for the work and that drives down everybody just think if you have ten contractors with ten employees each and they all do side work that is 100 jobs done below scale and at least two people were told by each of these how much they paid so 300 people now think we should work for 25 bucks an hour.So I bid a job at 85.00 per hour and they look at me like I am crazy and call the guy who does it "on the side and never takes work from his boss"

ding ding ding ding.....every job they take is from someone else's boss...but we tend to live in vacuums and not worry about things like that

[BryanMD]

ding ding ding ding.....every job they take is from someone else's boss...but we tend to live in vacuums and not worry about things like that

I fully understand, appreciate and do support the reasoning.

My practice was usually in the area of one (long saturday) job a month however a few years ago I was on this long road trip thing (I'll tell that story sometime) and found it very convienent to winter in Florida.

I hooked up with some LL types buying houses and got to the point that I needed to get organized with how I dealt with them. Below is the sheet I came up with (the prices are a few years old).

Don't chew on me too hard ;)



TERRAPIN ELECTRIC XXX-XXX-XXXX
Fee Schedule for “ Good Work @ Fair Price ” Ask For Bryan

Service Calls & Repairs:
Unknown complexity of work...
Same Day attention required...
Stay at your (one) site until the complaint is resolved...
Or make it safe enough to leave the problem for a later project.

Hour #1 (to include most travel expenses) $ 70.00
Hour #2 (typical limit of time to do a repair) 50.00 ( $120 )

Hour #3 (additional time as required 40.00
Hour #4 to most practically resolve complaint 40.00
Hour #5 without requiring a return trip) 40.00 ( $120 )

Reasonable effort will be made to keep client informed
of the nature of the problem(s) found and work that is requred.
Any materials needed will be charged to client at cost.
Travel time to get materials will be charged for.
Evenings and Weekends will be charged 50% Higher Rates.

Planned Work and Improvement Projects:
Estimates are based on prior site survey by Servicer
or (warily) by the client’s description of the scope of work.
Materials needed will be charged to client at servicer cost.
Travel time to get materials will be charged as part of the day.
Time to prepare any needed or desired formal quotes or drawings
will be charged to client at applicable service rates.

Half Day on Same Site Flat Rate
Up to 4 Hours (minimum) $ 160.00

Full Day on Same Site @ $30.00/hour
8 hrs (minimum) $ 240.00
10 hrs (typical) 300.00
12 hrs (if needed) 360.00

3 or More Days on Same Site @ $25.00/hour
8 hrs (planned) $ 200.00
10 hrs (if needed or practical) 250.00

Advance payment for planned materials and full payment for
all ‘Time and Material’ at completion of the work is expected.

[tonyou812]

Ive just gone out on my own and the hardest thing for me is working alone. But I am not confident enough yet to hire anyone for fear that the work wont always be there. I have to start a 4000 sq foot home in two weeks with about 60 cans and all my friends in the trade want too much money. They think because we are friends Ill pay them 35 hour cash, when some of them only make 17- 25 now. When i tell them that i have to hire them as subs and give them a 1099 for taxes they give me that look like "Is he serious?"
When I give someone a price and they think its too much I dont sweat it too much. I now know what it cost me to do work and make money so why do I want to start working for nothing? I would rather stay home and work on my own house than work for no profit. Luckily it hasnt come to that yet but if a plumber can get 1200 for a toilet I dont feel bad about my prices.

[tonyou812]

not to go off the subject but can someone tell me why when i try to space out my paragraphs it all gets put into one big paragraph when i post it?

[tonyou812]

I've done more side jobs than I can count or remember. As of right now I am not licensed but am actively working on it. I can honestly say, without saying this just because it's me, that I am a very good electrician. Recently I stopped doing sidework just for liability's sake, which to be honest never really thought about much before. I'm good at what I do, but not stupid.

I can also honestly say I've never stolen any of my company's business. The co I work for doesn't do service work for anyone other than it's builders or past customers. Everything I've gotten while at a job was a neighbor coming over asking for something, not a current customer asking me if I moonlight. I've turned down SEVERAL of those. 99% of my work came from friends, their friends, my neighbors and their friends. All of it was done on my own time.

Never stolen any company material or company time. If I ever needed something oddball or just real bad I'd go into the office and ask "how much would it be if I bought xxxx and xxxx from you?". But 99.99999 of material came from HD or Lowes. I kept all reciepts so if ever questioned I'd have proof nothing was stolen. I even bought my own wirenuts and staples. Not kidding. I've never been questioned about any of it.

A company can't dictate what someone does in their own time. If I'm not on the clock, they've got NO say in what I do. What, you want to tell me I can't eat cheeseburgers next? Why not, it makes me less healthy and I could have a heart attack and that would cause insurance rates to go up and cost the company more. If you fire the wrong person for doing sidework they'll sue you for wrongfull termination and win. You better have them sign something before you hire them. Even then, can an unlicensed person really classify as "competetion" before a judge?

If you have honest employees then sidework doesn't cost a company anything. In fact, it helps the company. It makes for better employees for those who care to be better. When you get into a pickle at a side job you learn to think and work in more creative ways to solve problems and get things done. If you screw up, it's your own fault and you pay for it. You can take that knowledge back to the company and be better prepared for things that might go wrong.

Hire good, honest people and you'll have no problems.

My advice to anyone starting out is surround yourself with good, positive people. Hire the best. It'll cost you more upfront but will make you lots more down the road.
My friend (unliscenced ) just rewired a kitchen for 600 bucks and i think a sandwich and he didnt even do it to code. So you tell me how people like this are OK for the industry? I always wondered what idiot would lay romex on a drop ceiling, or use lighting circuts for kitchen recepts and it just dawned on me its guys going for the quick buck. The infamous stationwagon electritian. If you have any of these guys on your staff you could bet you ass they are stealing. I seen it time and time again. And its usually the guy that always brings his big tool box home every night. I know plenty of 3-4 year apprentices that know just enough to do some really cheessy work for the quick buck. I personally have no problem turning these guys in.

[JES2727]

When i tell them that i have to hire them as subs and give them a 1099 for taxes they give me that look like "Is he serious?"

Be very careful with this. There are strict guidelines as to who qualifies as a "subcontractor". Also, if you are hiring them as subs for electrical work in NJ, then they are contractors and they need a license and you need certificates of insurance from them.

[GilbeSpark]

People like that aren't ok for the industry. No person doing shoddy work is good for any industry. Look, I'm no advocate for unlicensed work, which in all honesty is why I stopped. I made good money doing it but there is a big liability and to me it's not worth it. I'm not starving and don't need the risk.

I can see and honestly appreciate the viewpoints from both sides of the fence, some of which I haven't considered, but my opinion still stands that no employer can tell an employee what they can or can't do when off the company clock unless it DIRECTLY affects the company.

If anyone knows of someone doing "really cheessy work for the quick buck" I would also reccommend them being turned in.

[tonyou812]

Be very careful with this. There are strict guidelines as to who qualifies as a "subcontractor". Also, if you are hiring them as subs for electrical work in NJ, then they are contractors and they need a license and you need certificates of insurance from them.
I was led to beileve that as long as they are covered under my workmans comp that it was ok

[tonyou812]

People like that aren't ok for the industry. No person doing shoddy work is good for any industry. Look, I'm no advocate for unlicensed work, which in all honesty is why I stopped. I made good money doing it but there is a big liability and to me it's not worth it. I'm not starving and don't need the risk.

I can see and honestly appreciate the viewpoints from both sides of the fence, some of which I haven't considered, but my opinion still stands that no employer can tell an employee what they can or can't do when off the company clock unless it DIRECTLY affects the company.

If anyone knows of someone doing "really cheessy work for the quick buck" I would also reccommend them being turned in.
I wasnt implying you do cheessy work. Its just that I come across alot of crappy work lately and it surprises me that people dont care about their work or their customers even if its a side jobber.

[GilbeSpark]

I know you weren't, I didn't take it like that. Crap work shouldn't be tolerated anywhere.

[tonyou812]

Well not *totally* unrelated, more a "straw man" argument.

I've experienced everything along the spectrum from a rule of absolutely no under any circumstances to employers who would pull a permit for me when I needed one

The funny thing I've noticed is that (in my case) the times I was doing side jobs were based on real financial need. When I was getting paid well and/or had a fair bit of OT available I wasn't doing it. hmmmm

(Stroll through Home Depot on a Friday evening and look for the folks with that "deer in the headlights" expression and you're golden)
sorry this was ment to be a reply to something else but i could not delet it

[emahler]

I was led to beileve that as long as they are covered under my workmans comp that it was ok

doube check...but i believe you were led wrong....in nj it's a licensed trade....as far as i know you can't sub out a licensed trade to an unlicensed contractor....

where is celtic to quote state regulations when you need him?

[Minuteman]

When i tell them that i have to hire them as subs and give them a 1099 for taxes they give me that look like "Is he serious?"

Be very careful with this. There are strict guidelines as to who qualifies as a "subcontractor". Also, if you are hiring them as subs for electrical work in NJ, then they are contractors and they need a license and you need certificates of insurance from them.

In some states, a journeyman cannot sell his labor, only a contractor can. In those places you cannot hire a journeyman as a sub, and you cannot 1099 them unless they are "contractors".

[celtic]

I was led to beileve that as long as they are covered under my workmans comp that it was ok

Tony....you can either hire sub-contractors that are licensed as EC's or hire employees.
You cannot simply sub electrical work to a warm body.

What led you believe this (1099'ing warm bodies) was ok?

[tonyou812]

obviouslly someone that had less of a clue than me. I thought passing the test was the hard part

[emahler]

obviouslly someone that had less of a clue than me. I thought passing the test was the hard part

now that was funny.....passing the test is the easiest part of being a contractor :D

[Minuteman]

Tony....you can either hire sub-contractors that are licensed as EC's or hire employees.
You cannot simply sub electrical work to a warm body.

What led you believe this (1099'ing warm bodies) was ok?
This is the usual cases in places that have skilled labour licensing. It is done so to prevent someone from circumventing the process.

Here, I can hire laborers to do demo (non electrical) or clean up. But if I hire a laborer and give him a shovel to dig a trench for electrical, he must be an employee and have an apprentice card or be an Excavation Contractor.

[satnad]

Ive just gone out on my own and the hardest thing for me is working alone. But I am not confident enough yet to hire anyone for fear that the work wont always be there. I have to start a 4000 sq foot home in two weeks with about 60 cans and all my friends in the trade want too much money. They think because we are friends Ill pay them 35 hour cash, when some of them only make 17- 25 now. When i tell them that i have to hire them as subs and give them a 1099 for taxes they give me that look like "Is he serious?"
When I give someone a price and they think its too much I dont sweat it too much. I now know what it cost me to do work and make money so why do I want to start working for nothing? I would rather stay home and work on my own house than work for no profit. Luckily it hasnt come to that yet but if a plumber can get 1200 for a toilet I dont feel bad about my prices.
I work alone too. I tried to hire journeyman years ago but coult not find people who do work as I like it or they were not careful enough and drilled through floors, beams, made serious damages etc..
I don`t bother with service calls or very small jobs. I wait and it pays off. The secrete is: jobs I don`t want I will give a reference of a very expensive co. or (some of my competetors who work super cheap) This way it keeps them busy for peanuts and stay out of my way. When refering to expensive bigger co. it is to get the customers to know (the market) that electrical work is expensive. It works for me!