Buying 2 wire romex

[jamesguy10]

Today i went to a local hardware store.
I bought a box of asphault covered 12gauge 2 wire w/o ground.
It had about 20 price stickers on it.
im dating it around 1950
this just amazes me.

[Minuteman]

An what do you intend to do with cable, that may not meet current code?
I don't intend on doing anything with the 12/2 tar wrapped wire. Ask Jamesguy. I only wanted to know the price he paid for it.

[jamesguy10]

i intend on keeping it for show.
I didnt *pay* anything. I changed a couple bulbs in the stores 8ft t12 fixtures

[480sparky]

I still see a lot of ungrounded NM being installed today by central vac companies.

[wireguru]

I still see a lot of ungrounded NM being installed today by central vac companies.

what for? to power the vac? or for the control circuit?

[brantmacga]

what for? to power the vac? or for the control circuit?

there are no grounding terminals at central vac outlets.

[480sparky]

what for? to power the vac? or for the control circuit?

there are no grounding terminals at central vac outlets.

Exactly.... they install an ungrounded NM from the central vac outlet to a nearby electrcial box. The central vac cord has no ground, so they use 2-wire NM. I don't know what they're paying for it, but they must be paying less than the going rate for NM w/ground.

Now all I gotta do it educate them about dropping their special undgrounded NM into boxes such a dead-end 3-ways, dedicated circuits such a kitchen, bath & laundry boxes, and the like.

[don_resqcapt19]

Exactly.... they install an ungrounded NM from the central vac outlet to a nearby electrcial box. The central vac cord has no ground, so they use 2-wire NM.
The fact that the equipment to be plugged in has only a two wire cord does not permit you to delete the EGC from the branch circuit, and a outlet with a grounding connection is still required. 406.3(A).
Don

[peter d]

i intend on keeping it for show.


Of you can be like the local hacks and install it. ;)

Can you make out a brand name on it?

[satcom]

The fact that the equipment to be plugged in has only a two wire cord does not permit you to delete the EGC from the branch circuit, and a outlet with a grounding connection is still required. 406.3(A).
Don

Exactly! Just replace the non grounded circuits, that the hacks installed.

[jamesguy10]

when i bought it the guy there said i could use it for lights. wow.

[480sparky]

The fact that the equipment to be plugged in has only a two wire cord does not permit you to delete the EGC from the branch circuit, and a outlet with a grounding connection is still required. 406.3(A).
Don

This is what they are wiring. There is no ground connection to make. They install the 12/2 between their box and mine.

http://i214.photobucket.com/albums/cc172/480sparky/centralvacrecep.jpg

[wireguru]

This is what they are wiring. There is no ground connection to make. They install the 12/2 between their box and mine.

http://i214.photobucket.com/albums/cc172/480sparky/centralvacrecep.jpg

isnt that just a low voltage control circuit? every central vac ive seen uses 22/2 or something for the inlets.

[growler]

Today i went to a local hardware store.
I bought a box of asphault covered 12gauge 2 wire w/o ground.
It had about 20 price stickers on it.
im dating it around 1950
this just amazes me.

I love to visit old hardware stores where they still have new vintage items in stock. I was in one where they had some tomahawks on a self so I asked the owner if there is much demand for such an item since the end of the French and Indian war. It turned out that they hadn't been on the shelf quite that long. Some guy made them by hand and put them in the store on consignment to sell to knife collectors. :grin:

[LawnGuyLandSparky]

isnt that just a low voltage control circuit? every central vac ive seen uses 22/2 or something for the inlets.

Look closely at the lower right image. Top is 120v and it's for the beater-brush in the power head. The low voltage contacts are on the bottom of that photo.

Newer Central Vacs provide the 120v through the hose, and the vac inlet includes the actual 120v outlet. It's the older models that once used the vac suction to run the beater brush, or a pricier power nozzle and hose which had an additional cord.

[480sparky]

That is correct.... the upper set of contacts is actually the 120V power source for the vac.

The metal hose end makes contacts with the little metal buttons inside the round portion of the sytem, and that's what turns the remote motor on.

[don_resqcapt19]

In my opinion that is still a receptacle outlet and requires a grounding connection.
Don

[LarryFine]

The NM w/o ground could be used for in-wall LV lighting, couldn't it?

[Minuteman]

I love to visit old hardware stores where they still have new vintage items in stock.

A few years ago, an insurance company sent me out to a rural house for a repair. Very rural. House hit by lightning.

Most everything that I needed was on the truck, except a 50-amp twinkie FPE breaker. I drove to the small town hardware store, just in case. There it was... a brand new, 50-amp, original, 2 pole thin FPE breaker. As I remember, it was less than $20 and has a thick layer of dust on it! That was the only FPE he had. He had a few Bryants, Zinscos, and Wadsworths.

[480sparky]

In my opinion that is still a receptacle outlet and requires a grounding connection. Don

I'll call it a listed, factory-produced assembly.

[jamesguy10]

I still see a lot of ungrounded NM being installed today by central vac companies.
where do they get it? do they still make it?

[brantmacga]

the town i live in has a couple of those old hardware stores. the nearest supply house to me is 30 miles, so every now and then i have to drop in at one of the local places and pick up something small to save a trip. at one, the electrical shelf hasn't been restocked in probably 15 years. they have a QO GFCI 20A breaker for $69.99. A 15A recep is $1.20. We also have one of those "do it best" hardware stores that just came to town. You can buy 100' of 12-2 romex in a box for only $59.99. I had to get a gfci recep a few weeks ago it was $20. Today, I needed a couple of 1/2" emt outside pull elbows. They were $6.99 + tax. Inside pull elbows were $7.29. When they first opened a few months ago, i went up there to get some device boxes for a small kitchen remodel. They were $2.99 (metal) a piece. I didn't realize that until the cashier rang them up. After picking my jaw up off the floor, i put them back on the shelf.

--- forgot to add: i needed a dimmer once for a patio i was building. i went to the local place that had to $70 gfi; they didn't have any. the guy offered to order one, and i was in no hurry, so i told him go ahead. after spending 10 minutes looking at a 5 year old cooper catalog, we found the product number for an old rotary dimmer. he wrote down the order, and said he'd call me in a couple of weeks. well, a couple of weeks went by and i forgot about the one i ordered, and got one at the supply house. i got a call 6 months later from the hardware store; my dimmer had finally arrived!

[480sparky]

where do they get it? do they still make it?

Southwire (http://www.southwire.com/Southwire/StaticFiles/PriceSheets/Cu_BW_325R.pdf)

Beats me why they want to pay more than 'plain-jane' NM with a ground.

[480sparky]

After picking my jaw up off the floor, i put them back on the shelf.

But sometimes the local hardware store is a better option than a 2-hour round trip to the 'regular' supply house. :wink:

[brantmacga]

absolutely. which is why they can charge what they do. i get a few small items there once every week or so when we're doing local service calls.

[jamesguy10]

i got some pictures. sorry, i was thinking of the wrong wire, this isnt the asphalt, its the thick rubber

http://i197.photobucket.com/albums/aa141/jamesguy10/100_1529.jpg
http://i197.photobucket.com/albums/aa141/jamesguy10/100_1528.jpg
http://i197.photobucket.com/albums/aa141/jamesguy10/100_1525.jpg
http://i197.photobucket.com/albums/aa141/jamesguy10/100_1524.jpg

[jamesguy10]

Southwire (http://www.southwire.com/Southwire/StaticFiles/PriceSheets/Cu_BW_325R.pdf)

Beats me why they want to pay more than 'plain-jane' NM with a ground.
why do they still make this? what use is it? ive never even seen "new" wire w/o ground

[Minuteman]

Aw man, I thought it was tar baby wire! :rolleyes:

[480sparky]

why do they still make this? what use is it? ive never even seen "new" wire w/o ground

Well, for one, the c-vac guys use it.

[jamesguy10]

Aw man, I thought it was tar baby wire! :rolleyes:
i got that too, i'll post a pic tommarow

anyone still make WHITE 12 gauge nm?

(i know i can still buy it at that hardware store, the guy even gave me a box of it)

[don_resqcapt19]

I'll call it a listed, factory-produced assembly. How is that different from any other listed receptacle outlets? They still make listed two wire receptacles, but there use is very limited under the code.
Also the use of NM without an EGC is a code violation.
334.108 Equipment Grounding
In addition to the insulated conductors, the cable shall have an insulated or bare conductor for equipment grounding purposes only. Don

note: the EGC requirement is new to the 2005 code, in previous codes NM was permitted but not required to have an EGC

[480sparky]

How is that different from any other listed receptacle outlets? They still make listed two wire receptacles, but there use is very limited under the code.
Also the use of NM without an EGC is a code violation.
Don

note: the EGC requirement is new to the 2005 code, in previous codes NM was permitted but not required to have an EGC


You gotta remember, these are c-vac people, not 'lectertians. Do you really think they care about codes? I tried to educate them about "...shall have no other outlets..." and "Dead-end 3-ways do not have a neutral!" and got the standard, deer-in-the-headlights look.

[don_resqcapt19]

You gotta remember, these are c-vac people, not 'lectertians. Do you really think they care about codes?
How are they doing electrical work if they are not electricians? Around here the complete central vac system is installed by electricians.
Don

[480sparky]

I have yet to see an EC 'round here even touch a c-vac system. We wire the circuit and recep. for the can, but that's it.

[jamesguy10]

i do whole c-vac systems, but ive been know to build anything for $$ when work is slow, (heck ive done whole additions start to finsh, except concrete, for people!)

[iaov]

why do they still make this? what use is it? ive never even seen "new" wire w/o groundI found some of this in a remodel I did in Mo. last summer. I found a little bit of every thing in that house!!

[stickboy1375]

I have yet to see an EC 'round here even touch a c-vac system. We wire the circuit and recep. for the can, but that's it.


Wouldn't they need some type of license for the low voltage wiring aspect of it?