What is wrong with you people??

[electricmanscott]

I have been in the trade for 20+ years and I can not remember one single requirement (TR receptacles) causing such an cryfest. The whining is unbelievable. Not only in this and other forums, but in the field as well.

It has gone beyond ridiculous. Coupled with AFCI requirements, there is one thread on there that more or less says if we didn't have these requirements we would be able to save Africa from hunger and cure aids.

Am I in the bizzarro forum? :confused: :confused:

[iwire]

Am I in the bizzarro forum? :confused: :confused:

I have been asking myself that this afternoon as well. :roll:

[iwire]

Scott BTW, like the new signature, but thats my stupid opinion. :grin:

[electricmanscott]

Scott BTW, like the new signature, but thats my stupid opinion. :grin:

Yeah, I miss Glenn. :grin:

[peter d]

Just for giggles I stopped at Lowes last night while doing some shopping...lo and behold they had combo AFCI's on the shelves. No TR receptacles yet but eventually they might get on the program. But all the supply houses have the TR stuff, and it's all very cheap, about $.65 more for a regular TR receptacle and $4 more for a TR GFCI receptacle.

What that tells me is that in time as this stuff gets more popular the price will drop even more, so the cost issue is actually a non-issue. I used to whine about this stuff myself but I've seen the light. :D TR receptacles and AFCI breakers (that hopefully work) are a good thing.

[peter d]

Oh...to answer your question...what is wrong? Most electricians are afraid to make money? That's all I can think of. :confused:

[iwire]

But all the supply houses have the TR stuff, and it's all very cheap, about $.65 more for a regular TR receptacle and $4 more for a TR GFCI receptacle.

Well I was about to build a new 6500 sq ft home, but the extra $100.00 in devices put me over the top and now I will not build anything at all. :roll:

[peter d]

Well I was about to build a new 6500 sq ft home, but the extra $100.00 in devices put me over the top and now I will not build anything at all. :roll:

:D :D :D

Yeah, that about sums up the foolishness of this argument.

[stickboy1375]

Well I was about to build a new 6500 sq ft home, but the extra $100.00 in devices put me over the top and now I will not build anything at all. :roll:


You should just charge a dollar an answer, i'm sure you could pay off your house is cash...:grin:

[Rewire]

I remember when they came out with the UL listed fan boxes they cost more and everybody complained.

[iwire]

You should just charge a dollar an answer, i'm sure you could pay off your house is cash...:grin:

20K? that ain't gonna do it. :grin:

[stickboy1375]

20K? that ain't gonna do it. :grin:


Your not trying hard enough... :grin: :grin: :grin:

[iwire]

Your not trying hard enough... :grin: :grin: :grin:

Slave driver. :grin:

[cowboyjwc]

Thank you Scott and thank you Peter. Where was everyone getting this $5 a receptacle from? I believe someone mentioned that price in another thread.

I guess if ignorance is bliss, I'm one of the most blissful guys you'll ever meet.:smile:

[zdog]

Thank you Scott and thank you Peter. Where was everyone getting this $5 a receptacle from? I believe someone mentioned that price in another thread.

I guess if ignorance is bliss, I'm one of the most blissful guys you'll ever meet.:smile:
i dont see the big deal either.i know a few ec that price their res. jobs by the square foot.with the added price they would have to actually do some figuering.
as for the tr recpts,i did a day care(many moons ago)that required them.at that time it was a special order item and ran about $14.00 each

[chris kennedy]

You should just charge a dollar an answer, i'm sure you could pay off your house is cash...:grin:
LMOL:grin::grin::grin: Well done stick. How about a nickle a post? Same result.

A good laugh after a long day! Thank you.

[ishium 80439]

I'll be be the first to pick up the gauntlet. In terms of a cost factor I think that it is the initial shaock of having to pay more for these items than what is ingrained in peoples minds. Any time a new code like this comes down the road there are those who are either ignorant of it or are willing to ignore it so that skews the field not on the 6500 sf houses but on the " I need an outlet here and one here" kind of jobs. I know there are a hundred people about to write about not needing those customers or selling them on the safety etc but the reality is small jobs like this can keep people paid in between the larger ones so it's sometimes tough to let them go. In terms of selling the work just because someone is not a good electrician doesn't mean he can't sell the customer the other way with a golden tounge ( anyone ever been lied to by a drug user? They can sell sand to a camel when they want something). Over time I believe that this will all even out but do think that a possiblilty exists of some short term negative impact.

My biggest problem with these new requirements is the feeling of being lorded over. It feels just a bit too much like major industries creating a false need to sell a product. It feels like a further slip into the nanny state. I feel awful for the father that lost his child to lawn darts but is the correct reaction to that horrific accident to remove them from the market?

In terms of AFCI's have they been on the market long enough to come to any reasonabe statiscal conclusion as to there effectiveness? I don't know the answer and I'm no actuary but 3 years does not seem like long enough to collect the pertinent data.

Maybe I'm wrong about both of these items and certainly if it was my child who was saved by a TR recept I would be singing their praises but at what level does personal responsibilty come into play? It feels like a slippery slope. What about requiring all bulbs to have an inner coating that hold them together if the glass breaks? what about not allowing 120V in residences because of shock hazard? Dont' wood studs present a fire hazard? if some drives a picture hanger into romex they could get shocked so maybe we should go back to wiring houses with GRC?

Obviously I'm exaggerating on this but that is the overall feeling I get. I see my own personal trajectory on this is to whine about until summer (CO adopts the new code cycle in June) and then keep moving along as if it's always been there.

On a separate but related note, anyone out there have personal experience with combe AFCI's. They truly seem like an awful idea due to nuisance tripping but maybe they are worked out to the point concerns are unwarranted. When branch circuit AFCI' first hit the market I had an awful time wit nuisance tripping. They seem to be much more stable now though.

[cowboyjwc]

"We were born to mothers who smoked and drank, our cribs were covered in lead base paint, no child proof lids, no seat belts in cars, rode bikes with no helmets and still here we are"

There's always been the saying "you can't outlaw stupidity".

I wouldn't be as quick to go after the manufactures as I would the lawyers, the defenders of the stupid.

I believe that it's only here in CA, but I could be wrong, they have signs on the outside of buildings that read something to the effect "chemicals in this buiding have been known to cause cancer". Do you know what they're talking about? The White Out in the desks, the copier toner, the stuff used to clean the toilets, the glue in the carpet and what not.

I didn't hear any electricians whining when they required panic hardware on electric room doors so that they could get out in an emergency. Oh wait they didn't have to pay for those, the GC was forced to pay more because of an electrical code requirement.

See what you started Scott. : )

Ishium, are you anywhere near Littleton?

[wbalsam1]

"We were born to mothers who smoked and drank, our cribs were covered in lead base paint, no child proof lids, no seat belts in cars, rode bikes with no helmets and still here we are"

There's always been the saying "you can't outlaw stupidity".

Great point! :smile:

[jdsmith]

... In terms of a cost factor I think that it is the initial shock of having to pay more for these items than what is ingrained in peoples minds.
...
My biggest problem with these new requirements is the feeling of being lorded over.
...


These two things resonate with me as well. I was reminded today as I bought ballasts that I also needed a pack of those little luminaire disconnects that are required now. $1 each isn't terrible when it goes with a $33 ballast, but it's one more thing to keep around, and at least for a while I'll be thinking up numerous reasons that they're not really necessary. But my logical parts still say, gee, that makes sense.

I forgot to ask about TR receps and combination AFCIs since I don't have to worry about it anyway. I am curious to hear what the guys at the supply house would say though.

Jeremy

[cschmid]

I find the whole thing hilarious..I have ask what we can do about stuff like this..maybe we can start putting in our input on these issues first and maybe the NEC can do a better job of letting us know what is happening..I think the time of legalized profiteering should be done..I think the substantiation is bogus and weak..But unless we have better knowledge of how it works and input nothing will ever change..the people with money and power will continue to drive the code the way they want..I have ordered some of the TR outlets did not ask price..I am going to install them in my dads and uncles houses, dad is 74 and my uncle is 70 my mom is dead but my aunt is 69 so I can see how easy it is for the elderly to operate..my daughter has five boys and will put them in her house as well..all at my cost nothing to them I am asking them to keep a log of some stuff anyone want to have some input on question we should be asking..It is time we start collecting data ours is way better then what the manufacture pays for..we work with the stuff everyday..we go in and repair after fires and the damage is done..I think it is time we drive our destiney..:grin: :D

[dereckbc]

My take is the NEC has crossed the line from public safety: to commercial/special interest and promotion.

[peter d]

My take is the NEC has crossed the line from public safety: to commercial/special interest and promotion.

Some of it certainly has, and we can debate which rules are manufacturer driven and which aren't. But the vast majority of the code is still the same basic rules that have been in there for decades.

I've "crossed the fence" from being a naysayer about the NEC to realizing that the rules that are in there are actually for our safety and will make us money.

[roger]

My take is the NEC has crossed the line from public safety: to commercial/special interest and promotion.

And I have to agree, not just for the conversation at hand.

Roger

[electricmanscott]

My take is the NEC has crossed the line from public safety: to commercial/special interest and promotion.


It certainly does appear that way. But suppose the products that are driving the changes actually do what they are advertised to do. Is this really a bad thing?

The reality is it's the "system" that is the problem.

I've said it before, the NFPA is more or less a jobs program. It's kind of it's own little eonomy, and it is strong. They are pretty much ammending the code on an ongoing basis. Then they adopt the code, print new materials, sell new materials (which tend to be rather pricey as books go), and the local governments then adopt the code and it becomes law. All of this, every three years. It's brilliant really.

Here in Mass you are required to take a code update class before you can renew your license. If they really cared about promoting continuing ed you would be required to take this class within say 6 months of the codes adoption so you are providing the (theoreticaly) safest possible installations. But this would really piss off the contnuing ed providers who make a good living running these classes right up until the next code cycle.

Bottom line, too many people making too much money on this "system". It's not going to change and I am going to do my best to get what I can out of it.

[ceb58]

My take is the NEC has crossed the line from public safety: to commercial/special interest and promotion.

I think a lot of the complaining was due to the fact that it was no secrete that the manufactures had their people pushing and sitting on the cmp's with their "data" to promote their product. If independent and non bias data showed the life safety advantage of a product then their would be (although some would never) greater acceptance.
When I wired my son and daughter-in-law's house she was following me around placing the child proof plug covers on as fast as I could trim them out. No one told her to and code did not mandate it, it was just good parenting.

[charlie tuna]

i remember when they came out with gfic receptacles. my boss(who was not an electrician) came out to the job and about had a heart attack when he found out they cost $32.00 each !!! we were doing a ten story high rise condo ! he went to the general contractor and got an extra!! later on i found out he put in for every outside receptacle on all ten floors when all we needed was the ground floor outlets.. you know he never explained that to the general!!!?

[peter d]

i remember when they came out with gfic receptacles. my boss(who was not an electrician) came out to the job and about had a heart attack when he found out they cost $32.00 each !!!

I'm curious when that was.

P&S claims they invented the GFCI receptacle in 1971. $32 in todays money is...???? $100? $150?

[iaov]

Fear and consumption is what its all about. The marketers or the government do thier best to make us afraid of something, wether acne arc flash so that we will purchase something to aleviate that fear. Yes these rules do provide me with money making opportunities but I often find myself holding my nose while I do.:smile:

[electricmanscott]

I think arc flash, being a real and deadly hazard, is probably not the best example in this case.

[electricmanscott]

I just got a call from the Obama campaign. I should have asked what Baracks position on TR receptacles and AFCIs is and what he is going to do about the oppression of the American people by the hand of the NEC. :grin:

[iaov]

I think arc flash, being a real and deadly hazard, is probably not the best example in this case.Maybe not. But riding my Harley is a lot more dangerous and I don't have to wear a helmet to do it. Life has some risks and niether the government nor the NEC can protect me from all of them. I think the most important rules of the NEC, the ones that realy save life and property were all written a long time ago.:smile:

[360Youth]

I'm curious when that was.

P&S claims they invented the GFCI receptacle in 1971. $32 in todays money is...???? $100? $150?


I posted this (http://forums.mikeholt.com/showpost.php?p=765007&postcount=1) some time ago. Check out 2nd page, last coloumn.

[Pierre C Belarge]

My take is the NEC has crossed the line from public safety: to commercial/special interest and promotion.


Well said, plain and simple.

[dereckbc]

Well I certainly did not mean to offend anybody. So if I did please accept my apology, it was just my opinion based on observation.

Now just out of curiosity folks let me ask this question to some of the older, err experienced sparky’s out there. Let’s imagine we have two identical 2000/ft2 homes being built. One we build to current code, and the other say to 1996 or 93 code. What is the cost difference? Don’t ask me for the answer, I don’t know. :confused:

[cschmid]

hmm they can regulate helmets when they prey the cold steel hog bars out of my hands..oops my bad we are talking NEC..

[brother]

As someone said, special interest has taken over. Im curious, as to how many 'car accidents caused injuries/deaths in the past year, and should we 'ban' automobiles??

[iwire]

As someone said, special interest has taken over. Im curious, as to how many 'car accidents caused injuries/deaths in the past year, and should we 'ban' automobiles??

Yeah in the US they cause about 40,000 deaths a year.

But maybe you have not noticed that for the last 40 years the Government has stepped in and forced the manufacturers to make safer cars.

No one is going to ban autos anytime soon just as no one is going to ban electricity but we can make an effort to make the use of either safer.

I do have an idea though, lets keep the discussion focused on the NEC / NFPA / etc. lets leave stairs, windows and automobiles out of the discussion as this is an NEC forum. :)


I have to ask this, and it is specifically about the TR rule.

Do any of you really see this as a windfall for the manufacturers?

I don't, the AFCIs, yeah maybe but the TR deal is not a big price increase from the standard outlets.

[electricmanscott]

As someone said, special interest has taken over. Im curious, as to how many 'car accidents caused injuries/deaths in the past year, and should we 'ban' automobiles??


Are you just ignoring all the regulations that have been forced upon the car makers over the years that you have to accept and pay for whether you like it or not? And the countless rules and regulations involved in having a drivers license and actually driving a vehicle on a public way? NOT a good example.

More importantly, nobody is saying ban electricity, the idea is to make it safer.

As Bob stated the TR receptacles are not a huge windfall for anyone. They were making them already anyway.


The bottom line I think is that "people" just don't kile to be told what to do. But knowing "people" it certainly makes for a better society when "people" are told just that.

[electricmanscott]

Maybe not. But riding my Harley is a lot more dangerous and I don't have to wear a helmet to do it.

Here in MA you do.

Obviously not a debate to get into here but this kind of validates my whole argument.

[cschmid]

how many of you have the knowledge of what is going on in the code cycles and how hard would it be to publish a list of proposals and allow us to have input..we are the one doing the work dealing with the crap in the field and the public..the NEC does no public relations we as electricians do and yet we are out of the loop..So the real issue is why are we the last know and the first to receive the hassle from the public..yet we have no say..

[dduffee260]

I have no problem following the rules. This actually makes more money for contractors.
I can for one really appreciate that our government is helping us to save so many lives. There really is no sense for needless death and harm for our citizens.
I feel so strongly about this, as soon as I finish this cigarette I am going to write my congressman a letter and thank him/her for caring so much about the health and lives of our citizens.

[wbalsam1]

how many of you have the knowledge of what is going on in the code cycles and how hard would it be to publish a list of proposals and allow us to have input..we are the one doing the work dealing with the crap in the field and the public..the NEC does no public relations we as electricians do and yet we are out of the loop..So the real issue is why are we the last know and the first to receive the hassle from the public..yet we have no say..

The National Electrical Code Committee Report on Proposals is a good place to start. It's available thru the NFPA.
I can't believe all the NFPA bashing that goes on here. One has only to read their rich history to better understand what a great function they perform for society.It's not all about money....it's still about safety. Safety costs money. (NASA comes to mind).:smile:
We're not the last to know...we're invited to be part of the process all along. We have to have the initiative to become educated about the process.

[cschmid]

I have never been invited..never even knew where to look until I came to this site..it is a not common knowledge and we are the public reps for NFPA's NEC we should receive a little higher preference and at less cost but I do understand someone has to pay for it..So this I believe is the real beef here..We are the NEC installers and police and yet we are last to know..there is something wrong with that picture..

[wbalsam1]

I have never been invited..never even knew where to look until I came to this site..it is a not common knowledge and we are the public reps for NFPA's NEC we should receive a little higher preference and at less cost but I do understand someone has to pay for it..So this I believe is the real beef here..We are the NEC installers and police and yet we are last to know..there is something wrong with that picture..

Page 70-1 of the National Electrical Code. ;)

[cschmid]

I have no problem following the rules. This actually makes more money for contractors.
I can for one really appreciate that our government is helping us to save so many lives. There really is no sense for needless death and harm for our citizens.
I feel so strongly about this, as soon as I finish this cigarette I am going to write my congressman a letter and thank him/her for caring so much about the health and lives of our citizens.

they care so much about us they have been on the campainge trail for a year and getting paid and yet do not sit in the chair at their work in the senate and debate issues and pass legislation..they are getting paid to not do their job and tell me how much they care..dont tell me go do their job and make a difference..I dont have the same opinion..the things that haunt our society still haunt our society and show no signs of improvement..One is health care..if the house and senate did half as good as the NEC we would have some changes that make a difference..Sorry about the political rant I will try and stay focused on the NEC :grin: :D

Please PM me if this is removed and let me know so I know I crossed the line..

[Pierre C Belarge]

Are tamper proof receptacles going to make every home being built today and in the future safer?

MY OPINION, NO!

There will be many homes where the TR receptacles will have 0% bearing on safety for the occupants of the home. That is part of the reason why I say that the requirement if it is to be instituted should/could be done accordingly in a different manner. Not for all homes in the "areas specified in 210.52"


In the corporate world, anything that adds to the "bottom line" is a plus. Every year companies across the world are looking for a way to increase their bottom line. Numerous manufacturers will see an increase in their bottom line this year due to code changes, some good - some not so good.

[cschmid]

Page 70-1 of the National Electrical Code. ;)

public is invited to public meetings in Boston..I guess there is no other elctricians or states..hmmm

I am not trying to be a smart a-- here but you dont see any issue with that..there is no web sit listed. only a form in the back to send in a proposal..they can do better in the information age..

[brian john]

For me in residential (with regards to the OP) I am all about safety and the mantra of America "WE NEED TO PROTECT THE CHILDREN". I am not being sarcastic. What gets me about these new requirements is the way I perceive the NEC heading, manufacture driven.

This is showing up in many aspects of the trade. I have had manufacture reps tell customers that only the manufacturer's are qualified to work on their equipment (Main Line Switches, {HPC, bolted pressure switch ect}, ATS's, CB's, generators). manufactures want to drive the business, from all sides.

Watch if they do not own any independent inspection (code enforcement) companies they soon will.

So call it whining, or maybe a few wise souls waking up to the reality that the big guys are trying to tie up the business.

Is your local utility performing electrical work outside their normal realm.

[480sparky]

I think I'm gonna call up the Big Three and complain that I had to pay for hydraulic brakes, turn signals, a horn, seat belts, headlights, parking lights, bumpers, safety glass, a crumple zone, side-impact door beams, rear- and side-view mirrors, shock absorbers, anti-lock brakes and an air bag....

Just think of the ton of money I spent on all that 'safety' crap in my truck......:mad: :mad: :mad:

[cowboyjwc]

public is invited to public meetings in Boston..I guess there is no other elctricians or states..hmmm

I am not trying to be a smart a-- here but you dont see any issue with that..there is no web sit listed. only a form in the back to send in a proposal..they can do better in the information age..

You need to find and join your local IAEI chapter. Numerous members of my chapter are very involved. We've had a few SouthWestern Section Presidents, many IO board members, a bunch of people that have been on CMP's, a few instructors that are still listed in the magazine.

As a chapter we get together and look at proposels, vote on them and then send a rep to the NFPA meetings to vote.

Anybody from your helper to the top guy at NFPA can submit a proposel.

[haskindm]

If you don't like change - get out of the electrical trade, now!
Because you ain't seen nothin' yet. The next decade is going to bring RADICAL changes to our industry, in my opinion. AFCI's and TR receptacles won't even be a drop in the bucket.

If you don't want your industry controlled by legislators and lawyers - get out of the electrical industry. Public safety is the cry of the future (and present). It is not going to go away. Everyone that comes up with an idea that improves safety, is going to find a sympathetic ear and industry leaders that are willing and anxious to adopt the new products and make them required.

At least the NEC is controlled by people that have some clue about electrical work. The auto industry is being regulated by congress, and they don't understand the technology used and available. Yet they make the requirements that the manufacturers will need to try to meet. At least the NEC is there as a buffer between us and congress!

The average homeowner is getting further and further removed from the "trades". They will need to be protected because they will not have a clue about electrical safety. They will be allot more computer savvy, but many of them will have no idea how the systems in their homes work.

I don't have a crystal ball, but that is how I see the future, and it is not that far off.

Fasten your seatbelt. This ride is going to get a lot rougher before it is over. If you aren't prepared to adapt and embrace change, get out before it is too late!

[iwire]

^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ ^^^^^^

Stop and re-read the above post.

In my opinion the above post is right on the money, are industry has stayed pretty much stagnant compared to the world around it. The future will bring big changes to our field.

[ITO]

The only cry babies I see here are the one that think we can protect stupid people from themselves with laws and codes in the name of the all might politically correct.

I am sorry but NFPA is not is controlled by people that have some clue about electrical work, it is run by industry insiders, lawyers and special interest groups whose only real goal is to protect their own asses, and make rules than benefit themselves... not unlike congress.

It's a pretty sad state of affairs that our own code book needs legal interpretation.

[iwire]

The only cry babies I see here are the one that think we can protect stupid people from themselves with laws and codes in the name of the all might politically correct.

So then your saying the code book should be thrown out?

Cause that is what every other rule in it does, it protects people from themselves.

Why are panel covers required, (remember gear used to be live front and I bet people complained when that was changed) why are lighting outlets required at stairs?

Don't worry, the really stupid people will still get hurt. :roll: :grin:

[satcom]

The code came about to bring some ordet to electrical wiring, blame it on edison company, when they first light up parts of lower New York City, people and horses were scared to death from arcing wires and fires, so a group of engineers, gathered to make up a set of standards that would make electrical installations safer, the rest is history, if you think about it even back then, westinghouse engineers were making the rules.

[lpelectric]

......I am sorry but NFPA is not is controlled by people that have some clue about electrical work, it is run by industry insiders, lawyers and special interest groups whose only real goal is to protect their own asses,
......

Care to develop this assertation a bit more? I'm lost.

[cowboyjwc]

What I find interesting is what does get us riled up. TR's and AFCI's are the devils tools, but when the code required a seperate 20 amp circuit to the bathrooms nobody said a word, why? The answer I hear all the time is, "we only run #12 and put in 20 amp circuit breakers anyways". Again, why? Isn't 14-2 or 14-3 cheaper than 12-2 or 12-3? convienient? Sure, but for who? Not the homeowner, they'll probably never notice the difference.

The only reason I know of for the 20 amp bathroom circuit is because of the size of the hair dryers now and people were tripping circuits. Sounds more like an inconvinence to me than a safety issue.

Nobody squawked about panic hardware on electric room doors or $15 plastic bubble covers on outlets, grounded switches, 4 prong outlets for dryers, HID rated breakers (how many nonrated breakers are out there switching HID lamps?), GFCI protected sign transformers. I'm sure you get my drift.

The times they are a changing.

[cschmid]

Don't worry, the really stupid people will still get hurt. :roll: :grin:

Lmao that is very true..John I will check into that to but I dont know of anyone in the far north reachs involved with the IAEI..I will do an internet search..ITO I do believe you are on the right track with that statement..Yet I would like to point out a couple of unverified observations..In MN alone we have over 3500 EC'c, plus numerous masters journeymen and apprentices..which all the numbers can be gotten now that apprentices need to be registered..but for sake arguement lets say there are 10,000 working in the electrical field in MN alone not including engineers..so lets multiply that by 52 and you get 52,000 now at 15 percent for the higher populated areas and you have 59,800 for sake of arguement lets just say 60,000..How many of us frequent this site I hope a moderator can supply that info..how many are invovled in IAEI as memebers? any ideas..So lets assume that a 1000 frequent this site and that there are 2000 in IAEI now that is like 2 percent of the electrician population..think of how many complain about the stuff on here..how many complain that we never here of..so what are your ideas to help educate everyone on the new items in advance??I am all ear and yes I look funny with only ears..

[peter d]

The only cry babies I see here are the one that think we can protect stupid people from themselves with laws and codes in the name of the all might politically correct.


You've given a lot of great advice here, but that has to be the dumbest thing you've ever said.

We're talking about TR receptacles here. A cheap receptacle at that. But I guess you won't be convinced that this is a good rule so why bother....only dumb people's children get injured. :roll:

[480sparky]

Years ago, fuses were all that were used in residential wiring, and they weren't the tamper-proof type you can get today.... they were all Edison-base.

When home were first wired with electricity, there were only one or two 120V circuits in the whole house. And that was fine, even with 15amp fuses, because there was only one or two receptacles on each floor, and half a dozen light bulbs.

As time went on, RCA Victor came out with the Victrola record player. Radios became all the rage, and 15a breakers wouldn't hold, so everyone stuck in a 20.

Then came color TV, vacuum cleaners, washing machines..... and the 20 wouldn't stay on, so Dad just took it out and spun in a 30.

Pretty soon, hair dryers, microwaves, home entertainment centers and big-screen TVs hit the market, and the 30 wouldn't hold. But you couldn't get a fuse bigger than a 30, so you would put a penny in the fuse box.

Now, what is the ampacity of a penny?

It has one.... really.























It's right above Lincolns' head. Check for yourself.

[bradleyelectric]

As someone said, special interest has taken over. Im curious, as to how many 'car accidents caused injuries/deaths in the past year, and should we 'ban' automobiles??

No, they should start giving me tickets for not wearing a seat belt in my F550 to protect myself from serious injury or death. wa? Did I say that?

[ITO]

Just when I though nobody was reading my posts…

Doesn’t it bother anyone else that the code book grows by ¼” to ½” each issue? Or that there are classes on “how” to read it? Or that it reads like a lawyer wrote it?

Please don’t pretend that the new requirements for TR and AF receptacles has anything to do with safety or that we would even be discussing them unless some industry insider had not been there to advocate for them for no other reason than personal gain, in the guise of “save the children”.

Do TR and AF receptacles really effect my business? No, I just pass that expense on to my clients, who just pay more for something that I question whether or not is really necessary.

I don’t have a problem with having a code book, or common rules that we all work by but, when the governing body that writes those rules and uses their position to make rules that will effect their personal wealth, or create so much bureaucracy and legalese you have to take a class to understand how to read their rule book, I have to ask myself what will this profession be like in 2 or even 3 code book issues from now. We already live in a litigious society and every layer they put on us just makes it that much harder to sort through it all. At what point does common sense tell us the sky is not really falling and that guy selling the falling sky fix kit is not really helping anyone but himself?

[wbalsam1]

Powerfully compelling points, ITO. :smile:

[growler]

At what point does common sense tell us the sky is not really falling and that guy selling the falling sky fix kit is not really helping anyone but himself?


That's a good question. I would have though that the American people would have had enough when they started searching little old ladies at the airport and taking their nail clippers away but I guess not.

People are afraid of everything these days, they are afraid to drink, smoke, eat meat, drink tap water or even question the government.
Our ancestors may not have lived long but they did all of the above and they lived free and they were not afraid. Fear does sell and I don' think it will stop any time soon.

If the American people are willing to pay for all this BS then who are we to talk them out of it? If we don't get their money some TV evangelist will.

Sheep always end up getting sheared. ;)

[wbalsam1]

Growler, you and ITO should co-write a book. You both have excellent points to consider. If you do decide to, please write it in layman's terms, leaving out phrases like "shall be permitted" and "in accordance with".:smile:

[electricmanscott]

People are afraid of everything these days, they are afraid to drink, smoke, eat meat, drink tap water


Let's be honest, those are legit concerns.

[satcom]

Growler, you and ITO should co-write a book. You both have excellent points to consider. If you do decide to, please write it in layman's terms, leaving out phrases like "shall be permitted" and "in accordance with".:smile:

That is because, they went to different schools together!

[LawnGuyLandSparky]

What I find interesting is what does get us riled up. TR's and AFCI's are the devils tools, but when the code required a seperate 20 amp circuit to the bathrooms nobody said a word, why? The answer I hear all the time is, "we only run #12 and put in 20 amp circuit breakers anyways". Again, why? Isn't 14-2 or 14-3 cheaper than 12-2 or 12-3? convienient? Sure, but for who? Not the homeowner, they'll probably never notice the difference.

The only reason I know of for the 20 amp bathroom circuit is because of the size of the hair dryers now and people were tripping circuits. Sounds more like an inconvinence to me than a safety issue.

I disagree. I don't think the point of this change was to provide 2400 watts for a blowdrier. (Since you can connect multiple bathroom receptacles to one 20a circuit.) I think the point was to get the bathroom outlets OFF of the 15 or 20 amp GP circuits within the house, so that the use of an 1800 watt blowdrier in the bathroom wouldn't plunge the surrounding areas into darkness.


Nobody squawked about panic hardware on electric room doors or $15 plastic bubble covers on outlets, grounded switches, 4 prong outlets for dryers, HID rated breakers (how many nonrated breakers are out there switching HID lamps?), GFCI protected sign transformers. I'm sure you get my drift.

The times they are a changing.

About the only thing that is certian is change. But I think that the push for TR receptacles and AFCIs is particularily loathsome to many, because it is common knowledge these changes were proposed by, and for the benefit of the corporations that manufacture them.

The manufacturers of panic door hardware didn't petition for a code change.

[nakulak]

It's right above Lincolns' head. Check for yourself.


I give up. looks to me like it should be around 175amps.

so what's the answer ?

[wbalsam1]

That is because, they went to different schools together!

Yes, and I'll bet it was uphill both ways! :grin:

[iwire]

The manufacturers of panic door hardware didn't petition for a code change.

No reason that they could not have.

[mdshunk]

It is clear, from history, that businesses and industries who fail to regulate themselves will be regulated (by the government). At the moment, we're regulating ourselves, and we should be happy about that.

[bhsrnd]

I think we've all heard that before. I'm not implying that everyone in the forum isn't involved in the NFPA code making process, however, for those that are NFPA members and choose not to say anything or those who aren't and complain:

Everyone needs to get involved with the code making process. All points are valid but what I see in this thread is no different than a presidential election.

Guy 1: "I hate this president"
Guy 2: "Who'd you vote for?"
Guy 1: "I didn't vote"
Guy 2: "Then you have no business complaining if you didn't contribute to the process"

Just my twenty cents.

[roger]

Let say Guy 1 hated all the candidates at election time, who could he have voted for that he would not hate as the president.

Roger

[hardworkingstiff]

Yes, and I'll bet it was uphill both ways! :grin:

Actually, my son (in the 6th grade) walked uphill to catch the bus and uphill after he got off the bus.

We lived in the middle of a hill. He walked up the hill to catch the bus and got off the bus downhill. LOL, I asked him about it and (I forget the answer) I just shrugged and went on.

[bhsrnd]

Let say Guy 1 hated all the candidates at election time, who could he have voted for that he would not hate as the president.

Roger

I can honestly say that I've been there personally but never complained...Just waited until 2008 for the next election ;)

And not to steer this off topic into a political debate but I hope my point is taken (even with a grain of salt).

[roger]

I can honestly say that I've been there personally but never complained...Just waited until 2008 for the next election ;)

And not to steer this off topic into a political debate but I hope my point is taken (even with a grain of salt).

I have been there as well. :)

Roger

[bhsrnd]

I haven't been out here in awhile but between this thread and Mr. B "pittying the fool" in another thread I'm gettin' one heck of a good laugh!

[stickelec]

Growler, you and ITO should co-write a book. You both have excellent points to consider. If you do decide to, please write it in layman's terms, leaving out phrases like "shall be permitted" and "in accordance with".:smile:

When you guys do your book... make it an Audio Book with some nice music in the background. :D

[wbalsam1]

When you guys do your book... make it an Audio Book with some nice music in the background. :D

Yes, but preferably not "electronica"! :grin: :grin: