Show of hands

[growler]

How many of you actually have AFCI breakers & TR receptacles in your homes at present? These things have been on the market now for awhile.
Everyone is concerned with safety, right?

If you do consider them necessary then they would already be in your homes because I know you wouldn't take any chances with the lives of your family to save a few bucks.

I'll start by saying that I don't have any. I have GFCI protected receptacles & smoke detectors and that's it. I'll also say that I don't plan on running out to buy any in the near future for home use.

Show of hands. How many electricians have already up-graded their own homes? I have learned enough to never judge people by what they say but by what they actually do.

This should be interesting.:rolleyes:

[Dennis Alwon]

my house is 22 years old and I just installed GFCI's in the kitchen bu I am a sorry soul. My bathrooms had gfci when it was built and I might add they were on #12 and nothing else connected to the circuit.

I have not installed arc faults. Definitely not TR recep.

[Rewire]

I am still trying to pry out those plastic things the first wife jamed into the receptacles when the kids were little and the don't make arc fault fuses.

[zog]

Sorry, not a residential guy. What is a TR recpt?

[charlie b]

To make things more interesting, I added a poll.

[charlie b]

Sorry, not a residential guy. What is a TR recpt?
"Tamper Resistant," I believe.

[ITO]

Growler, exactly what I was thinking.

[zog]

Found it, good idea,

http://www.nfpa.org/itemDetail.asp?categoryID=1508&itemID=36117&URL=Research%20&%20Reports/Fact%20sheets/Electrical%20safety/Tamper-resistant%20electrical%20receptacles&cookie%5Ftest=1

Better than my method, I got nailed in front of my kids putting a cover back on after painting, I played it up a little and turned to my kids and said "See, thats why you dont touch those" , I have never seen mu kids get anywhere near an outlet since.


AFCI's for me, no TR's.

[growler]

I have not installed arc faults. Definitely not TR recep.


Do you plan on it? Do you see it a necessary to protect your own family?

With GFCI protected receptacles and smoke detectors I could see the need right off and I was willing to go out and spend the money to install those myself. Also at my mothers house.

Does anyone actually plan to protect their own homes or the homes of other family members? This will let us know how important that the average electrician actually consider these code changes.

If I had a Federal Pacific panel I would be changing it, Now.

[growler]

I am still trying to pry out those plastic things the first wife jamed into the receptacles when the kids were little and the don't make arc fault fuses.


Good excuse but as an electrician it wouldn't be that hard to change over to a breaker panel. We do it all the time. :grin:

[billsnuff]

house only 7 yrs old. smokes and gfci. don't see any afci in my future, unless required by code. i do have a fire ext near the kitchen, egress windows in bedrms and man cave (raised ranch) and CO detector near utility rm.

[220/221]

I didn't put AFCI in the house I am in now. I built it about 5 years ago. GFCI, and smokies only.

The house I am building has AFCI because it required inspection. Otherwise I wouldn't have.

The last house I was in for 15 years had no afci, gfci. smokies, water/gas bond or grounded receps.

[growler]

To make things more interesting, I added a poll.


Good idea Charlie, I'm just trying to get a hypocrite count and see how many people practice what they preach.

If everyone actually considers these new code changes to be so important then you would think that some of the professionals would have already up-graded their own homes. It's all about safety, right?

[celtic]

I am still trying to pry out those plastic things the ... wife jamed into the receptacles when the kids were little ...

...and - as we all know - NJ hasn't accepted the AFCI requirement.
I learn about it mostly by reading what you guys (as guinea pigs) are doing.


(ETA...I'm still with my 1st wife)

[cowboyjwc]

My house is about 30 years old, as I have redone rooms I have upgraded what I could get to, some new wiring GFCI's in the bathroom, there were no receptecales outside so I have added 8 or so, GFCI with bubble covers. Interconnected smokes where I could.

The way the house is wired I'm not really even sure how many AFCI's I would need to get full coverage in the bedrooms, I would probalby have to put in all AFCI's breakers just to make sure.

Right now it seems that one breaker feeds about half my house (3000 sq ft) When I finally get to remodeling my kitchen I think that I will be able to fix some of the problems I have.

[growler]

...and - as we all know - NJ hasn't accepted the AFCI requirement.

I understand that but if you really though it was an important safety concern I'm sure you wouldn't wait for a law that tells you that you have to do it. You would run right out and spend the money to protect your own family.

I wish there was a way to tell how many of the NFPA board members that voted for these changes that had actually up-graded their own homes. If they thought it so necessary why wouldn't they?

Most people put their own family's safety above all concerns. Nothing wrong with that.

[roger]

Heck, not only do I not have AFCI's or TR's, the three GFCI reeptacles in my home don't have GFCI protection after a lightning strike a few years ago.


Roger

[charlie b]

I must protest the suggestion that should I choose not to install AFCI or TR in my own home, that this would represent a lack of safety concern on my part. I do not accept the notion that I am a failure as a husband and father, a man with evil intent, a discredit to the profession, if I do not instantly buy and install each and every thing ever invented, and everything that will ever be invented, if it but has the word “safety” included in its advertising documents, or if some person or other mentions it in the same sentence as the word “safety.” In the absence of any applicable and enforceable legal requirements, I get to choose what I consider to be a valuable enhancement to safety, and I get to choose not to buy something that I don’t want. I do not believe the presence or absence of AFCI and TR to have any impact on the safety of myself and my family.

[code_compliant]

Pains me to admit it but I only have only installed smokes and GFI's in the required areas. Nothing else.

Been meaning to change the fuse panel out but I bought the house from the guy who built it. Surprisingly he never added a circuit in 40yrs. Tightened everything when we bought it, haven't looked at it since. Really a thing of beauty I can't bear to part with.

The only reason I installed the smokes was the wife is notorious for leaving candles burn overnight:mad:

However, in the event of a remodel, say from the extensive fire damage we could experience:roll: I would happily install TR receptacles and AFCI's.

[growler]

I must protest the suggestion that should I choose not to install AFCI or TR in my own home, that this would represent a lack of safety concern on my part.

I'm sorry Charlie, You don't understand my point. I'm not even suggesting that you go out and spend money on any of these things. I'm not going to and I don't expect you to either. Then again I'm not going to start telling everyone ( customers ) that they are the greatest thing since sliced bread if I don't bother with them myself. I will tell them it's a requirement but that's it.

I don't like the idea of pushing a product that I don't believe in. If I did think they were necessary I would buy them for myself first, then tell everyone what a great idea they are.

[Rewire]

Good excuse but as an electrician it wouldn't be that hard to change over to a breaker panel. We do it all the time. :grin:
if it aint broke don't fix it,IMO fuses are better than breakers just not as convienient.

[growler]

if it aint broke don't fix it,IMO fuses are better than breakers just not as convienient.

Right you are, that's what I told an old lady not long ago.
She is over 80 and a fuse blew when they painted the house ( compressor). How many more times is she going to get the house painted? The wiring looks good and she only had to replace two fuses in the last 20 years so why spend money she doesn't have on changes.

[ptonsparky]

My home is 90+ years old and I used multi-wire branch circuits wherever I could 25+ years ago.

When breakers fail I may consider replacing with AFCI where possible, but I am certainly not in a big hurry. TR devices the same way.

That makes the houses the most likely to benifit(?) from AFCIs, the least likely to get them.

[nakulak]

remodeled my house in 2000, added 2 floors up (was a 1 story), no arc faults, no trs (plenty of gfi's), not planning on doing any more remodeling, not gonna install arc faults in forseeable future (no kids, no reason):confused:

[celtic]

I understand that but if you really though it was an important safety concern I'm sure you wouldn't wait for a law that tells you that you have to do it. You would run right out and spend the money to protect your own family.

I understand your POV...here is mine:
The little plastic things we have shoved in every receptacle in our home does the job equally as well as a TR device.
Is there ANY evidence that would suggest the plastic plug is inferior to the TR device?

NJ did not adapt 210.12(B) for what reason?
The State did not buy the manufacturers claims.
Why should I? (Not that I agree with everything the State decides :wink:)
Where are the combination type that would be required this year?

AFCI protection IS a good thing - but let the manufac. live up to their promises before we jump on their wagon listening to thier band.



Most people put their own family's safety above all concerns. Nothing wrong with that.

Of course there is nothing wrong with that....only probelm is: Not all of the promises have been kept.

[iwire]

If you do consider them necessary then they would already be in your homes because I know you wouldn't take any chances with the lives of your family to save a few bucks.

Thats bull, no other way to put it.

The fact that I have not installed either TRs or AFCIs has no bearing at all about how I feel about the usefulness of them.

My kids are now 7 and 9, when there where younger I had actually dis connected the power from their bedroom receptacles.

I am not about to change all the receptacles in my home just because the code changed, when I do have to replace or add a receptacle it will be TR, if I add a circuit it will be AFCI.

As much as I am for TRs I don't expect anyone including myself to change all the receptacles in their home just for the sake of doing it.

I do have GFCIs on circuits that the NEC does not require GFCIs.

[shockin]

Great poll!!! I'm sure all the people the believe every "saftey" product should be installed at any cost if it will potentially save the life of ONE child will not be too anxious to run out and install TR's everywhere and AFCI every circuit, even the ones not required by code. Those people should also install GFCI - TR's everywhere instead of regular TR's, that must be safer. And you never know, it could save one life somewhere.

If the intent is to save lives why don't they outlaw smoking. This is one of the leading causes of death. I'm pretty sure sticking a paper-clip in an outlet doesn't even make the list. So explain to me again what the real motive behind the TR and AFCI code is?

[tmbrk]

My house was built in 1950. When I purchased it I installed GFCIs in bathroom and kitchen and installed two outside. I also installed battery powered smoke/CO detectors (not intereconnected).

House is done in BX and I installed grounded receptacles in all locations.

I do not see a reason for installing AFCI breakers or TR receptacles in my home.

[iwire]

So explain to me again what the real motive behind the TR

2,400 kids a year go to the emergency room after sticking things in receptacles, I am pretty sure the real motive is to make that number smaller.

[tmbrk]

If the intent is to save lives why don't they outlaw smoking. ?


They did it in Illinois as of the first of this year.

But that's a debate for another day.......:smile:

[shockin]

I-wire, my point is why not focus on the leading causes of death - many of which would COST nothing to eliminate? Smoking is just an easy example. (Please don't eliminate drinking however)

As a sparky I'm all for selling these products. It equals more money. As a consumer I fell like it is purley driven by the manufactures desire to make more money.

[celtic]

My house was built in 1950. When I purchased it I installed GFCIs in bathroom and kitchen and installed two outside. I also installed battery powered smoke/CO detectors (not intereconnected).

House is done in BX and I installed grounded receptacles in all locations.



My house is the same story as TM's....but I chose to add smoke/CO detectors (hardwired) all over the place (over stock :smile:)....battery smokes would have been a code compliant solution.

[iwire]

I-wire, my point is why not focus on the leading causes of death - many of which would COST nothing to eliminate? Smoking is just an easy example. (Please don't eliminate drinking however)

Because this is the NFPA and they are not the Govt. and they are not in control of those other causes of injuries.

The NEC CMP (Code Making Panel) was shown some pretty grim injury statistics and there was already a low cost product on the shelf that has a good chance of reducing injuries.

The AFCI issue is in my opinion a different story but one that we are stuck with like it or not.

[celtic]

BTW Growler....great topic to stir the pot up :D

[480sparky]

Let's qualify the poll:

How many have built their house they currently live in since Jan. 1, 2008?

[celtic]

Mine is a "work in progress".

[shockin]

480 - I don't think that matters. The point is, if you believe in the product and think it will save lives you should immedialty replace what you currenty have installed at any cost.

[480sparky]

480 - I don't think that matters. The point is, if you believe in the product and think it will save lives you should immedialty replace what you currenty have installed at any cost.

If that's the case, we'd be rewiring our houses every three years.

[electricmanscott]

This TR- AFCI debate is exhausting.

For the record, since I am well aware whom this thread is aimed at...

I have AFCI's in my house. I buy an extra one every once in a while and when I feel like it I install them. I have also installed them on circuits I have added that did not require them.

I do not have TR receptacles.


If and when I do any electrical work it will be to, or over and above the NEC. Just as I would do for any customer.

And I won't be crying while doing it. :rolleyes:

[electricmanscott]

If that's the case, we'd be rewiring our houses every three years.


Exactly.....

Let's use a little bit of sense shall we.

[electricmanscott]

I just re-read the original question and some responses. What a bunch of nonsense. Seriously get a grip.

[growler]

This TR- AFCI debate is exhausting.

For the record, since I am well aware whom this thread is aimed at...
:rolleyes:


Scott, you posted three times in three minutes, no wonder you are exausted. Slow down.

Don't get paranoid, this is not aimed at you. You stated that you wish to make money from the installation of these items and I can understand that.

This is very simple. It's to see if anyone considers these items important enough to install in their own homes.

If a doctor were to percribe a certain medication or recommend a treatment for your children wouldn't you wonder if he would treat his own in the same manner.

4 out of 5 dentist recommend Crest but that doesn't mean they brush their teeth with it. If you wanted the best product you would ask what 4 out of 5 dentist use. :)

[infinity]

I have neither and won't be adding them anytime soon either.

[peter d]

I just re-read the original question and some responses. What a bunch of nonsense. Seriously get a grip.

I couldn't agree more. This whole discussion is absurd.

[crossman]

I think the OP is making a reasonable point.

[peter d]

No, I don't have TR or AFCI's in my home. I bought a whole bunch of TR's that where being closed out at HD, and I intend to install them when/if I have children.

I now support the changes that the NEC has made, and I will no longer voice my resistance to these rules here on the forum as I have in the past.

I don't like the fact that AFCI's are an unproven technology, and where rushed into the code. Still, they are made (in theory at least) to stop arcing faults. That's a good thing. If they can ever get them to actually do it I will be happy. In the meantime we are stuck with the rule.

Edit: so why not add to the absurdity. ;)

[wbalsam1]

I don't have any AFCI breakers or TR receptacles in my home. But, honestly, I think the reason is that I haven't done any electrical alterations, or extended any circuits, or added new ones, so I haven't focused on updating to safer conditions. I, too, have GFCI's and smoke and carbon monoxide detectors. :smile:

[charlie tuna]

i am not a residential contractor--but try my best to keep up on the code. from the words of mike holt -- "it is easier to learn and understand the code when you know the reason why new items are introduced and mandated by the nec! well, i remember the introduction to the afic rules and the reason sounded reasonable--"many home fires are caused by pinched cords behind furniture and this afci would sense the arc and de-energize the circuit"........ sounds good and thats the way i remembered. now recently i'm wiring my own house and the inspector asked me "you DO have the smoke detectors on a afci circuit?". of course i didn't--figured they were hard wired--no cord to pinch???? no--- he explains everything in the bedrooms have to be on afic circuits????

[220/221]

This whole discussion is absurd.


How can a WHOLE DISCUSSION be absurd?


Relax and open up a litle.

Knowing how other people think is a good thing.

[peter d]

How can a WHOLE DISCUSSION be absurd?


Relax and open up a litle.

Knowing how other people think is a good thing.

I'm relaxed as can be. :cool:


I seem to remember a long discussion about taped wirenuts a while back. ;)

[360Youth]

This whole discussion is absurd.

If so it is in good company because it is far from the only one of its kind. Such is the passion of debate. :grin:

[peter d]

Well I can see that comment has gone over quite well. :D


Let me put it another way: Accept & adapt, or uproot. I don't know where I heard it but that's my way of looking at these new rules. So the manufacturers control the industry. Big deal. When did they not control the industry? :confused:

[hey_poolboy]

My house was built in 1909, and had K&T when we moved in. We upgraded everything as we went through the house. At that time AFCI's weren't necessary, but we are all up to code aside from that.

TR's just seem like a real pain to me, I don't plan to add them just for the sake of it.

[electricmanscott]

TR's just seem like a real pain to me, .
:-? How so?

[bikeindy]

My home was built in 1925 rewired I think by the looks of it in the '60's I don't have any of the "safety" stuff in my home I don't push them on people I do all my installs code compliant and beyond I think making people install TR's is retarded but we will do it when the state requires it, and I don't wear my seatbelt I hate locked doors. oh well.

[hbiss]

I can see problems on all sides with the TR issue.

First, 2,400 kids a year go to the emergency room after sticking things in receptacles

Where does that figure come from? Bet it's the TR lobbyists. For the life of me I can't understand how so many kids have actually been injured from "sticking something into a recepticle". Think about what would have to happen for injury to occur. The liklihood of a toddler finding a metallic object with the proper dimensions to fit in both slots of a recepticle borders on the impossible. That is the only way that an injury would be guaranteed. Putting a metallic object in the neutral or ground will do no harm. Even contacting the hot will do no harm unless the child is also in contact with a grounded object. I will concede that in the case of baseboard heat this could pose a problem but otherwise it's unlikely.

My opinion then is that this number is based on overreacting parents, kids playing with cords or plugs already plugged into the recepticle and older kids doing something they should know enough not to do.

Second, I don't know how TR receptacles are going to make anybody money, maybe to retrofit but not in the long run. When manufacturers replace regular receptacles with TR it will be like when non-grounded receptacles were replaced by grounding receptacles. We will all use them and the prices will be the same.

So as I see it, I can't see the reasoning for TR recepticles but I also can't see the harm.

-Hal

[Dennis Alwon]

I am trying to figure out what this poll could possibly tell us. The fact that there are, at this time, 16 people who have arc faults in their home does not tell us that they were put it due to safety. They could be there because the code required them..... so --- what does that tell us.

The fact that there are 65 members who don't have them tells us more than any other statement.

I also find it unusually that someone has TR receptacles but not arc fault. Must have kids.... Arc faults were required before TR so that one surprised me.

Anyone-- just my thoughts. :)

[satcom]

I can see problems on all sides with the TR issue.

First, 2,400 kids a year go to the emergency room after sticking things in receptacles


The liklihood of a toddler finding a metallic object with the proper dimensions to fit in both slots of a recepticle borders on the impossible. That is the only way that an injury would be guaranteed. Putting a metallic object in the neutral or ground will do no harm. Even contacting the hot will do no harm unless the child is also in contact with a grounded object.

-Hal

"The liklihood of a toddler finding a metallic object with the proper dimensions to fit in both slots of a recepticle borders on the impossible."

If you keep them caged, it may not happen.

"Putting a metallic object in the neutral or ground will do no harm."

Is that a fact! Could this be a reason many don't see a need for them, they don't understand the hazard.

[iwire]

First, 2,400 kids a year go to the emergency room after sticking things in receptacles

Where does that figure come from? Bet it's the TR lobbyists.

Hal the numbers come from hospital emergency rooms over the course of ten years and 2,400 hundred was the average, there where also four deaths over that time. When another study was done in Canada very similar numbers where found.


For the life of me I can't understand how so many kids have actually been injured from "sticking something into a receptacle". Think about what would have to happen for injury to occur. The liklihood of a toddler finding a metallic object with the proper dimensions to fit in both slots of a recepticle borders on the impossible.

Hal, regardless of what you think can happen, it is happening.

If you really want to see all the info on where the numbers came from I will post them here in this thread. :)

It breaks down how many of each accident happen, how many minor burns, how many serious burns, what was used to stick in the receptacle etc.

[hbiss]

Thanks, I would like to see it.

-Hal

[Poolside]

Good idea Charlie, I'm just trying to get a hypocrite count and see how many people practice what they preach.

If everyone actually considers these new code changes to be so important then you would think that some of the professionals would have already up-graded their own homes. It's all about safety, right?


Sort of like my physician smoking a cigarette after eating his Big Mac and fries for lunch...:D

[hbiss]

"Putting a metallic object in the neutral or ground will do no harm."

Is that a fact! Could this be a reason many don't see a need for them, they don't understand the hazard.

Huh? Tell me how sticking something into the ground hole is going to do anything. Also tell me how sticking something into the neutral slot is going to do anything.

I have no idea what your statement "Could this be a reason many don't see a need for them, they don't understand the hazard" has to do with what we are talking about.

-Hal

[iwire]

Thanks, I would like to see it.

-Hal

I have to run now, I will find it, it's in the ROP and it is what made me change my mind about the need for this requirement.

Bob

[electricmanscott]

The madness continues. :grin: :roll:

[growler]

Here are some articles with all the gruesome details. Warning : Not recommended for those under age 35.

http://www.childoutletsafety.org/

http://www.cpsc.gov./CPSCPUB/PUBS/524.html


I would like to add that I"m not sure how they figure that 1/3 of a total of 3900 incidents is 2400.
Remember that these are all esimates. ( numbers from two different articles, NEMA & CPSC)

[wirebender]

Here are some articles with all the gruesome details. Warning : Not recommended for those under age 35.

http://www.childoutletsafety.org/



According to this report hairpins are the biggest culprit, accounting for nearly 800 injuries a year (32%). Maybe we should outlaw hairpins, I'm sure they cause even more injuries than electrical shock.

[crossman]

Maybe we should outlaw hairpins,

Well, hairpins don't need to be outlawed. They simply should be required to be insulated. Perhaps the NFPA can jump on it and get that in the 2011 NEC?

[nakulak]

yeah, tamper resistant hairpins - that's the ticket.

on a larger note, did you notice the victim profiles ?

http://www.nakulak.com/dangerstochildren.gif

[bikeindy]

I think that a better response to this problem is to require people to take a test before they procreate. I think it might just solve a lot more problems than some burned fingers.

[crossman]

Nakulak, your addition to the profile was good.

But as for the profile: Emotinal trauma to child and parents

Come on, give me a break! We Americans have turned into such a darned bunch of sissies, Geez! When I burned my fingers as a five year old, I guarantee I was running around the yard an hour late playing army or whatever.

[hbiss]

I ain't buying it.

Only males? I guess girls aren't smart enough or maybe they are born with instincts that boys don't receive. Inserted a hairpin? I haven't seen a hairpin since my dearly departed mother used them 30 years ago. Keys? Tell me how most house or car keys would even fit in the slot and if it did so what.

Sounds to me like this is mostly inner city and bad parenting, other issues with the particular receptacles (damaged, etc) . Not something that TR receptacles are going to cure. You also have to consider the source- the NEMA is hardly unbiased on this issue.

-Hal

[~Shado~]

Well, I was one of those crazy kids messin with recepts....not at 2 or 3 yrs old. I was in school, guess about 2nd or 3rd grade. Had a science class and all were given a piece of wire, a battery, and a lamp...it was a race to see who could get lamp lit first. I lost...:mad: But, the teacher made mistake discussing electricity and recepts to us poor dumb kids. hehehe.... for about a week we were taking the foil wrappers from Wrigleys gum, folding it into a fork shape and poking into any recept we could find in school, home, etc just to see the bang!! Never got hurt from it...but got me bottom hurt once me pops found out! :mad:

[macmikeman]

Everybody has been looking at this thing all wrong. Since we can see from the posted data, which since it was posted after all it must be absolutely true, that kids stick things into receptacle outlets there is an obvious overlooked fix. Forget the tamper proof receptacles, the little tykes might still be able to tamper using bypass methods they saw on the home improvement shows. So what I suggest is that the govt. require the moms to dress the little wonders in mini ppe clothing. Baby bubble suits. Insulated up to 5,000 volts and a completely ark flash free enviroment. Only then will we know for sure that little junior is protected against all unwanted electrical shocks and ark blast hazards.

[crossman]

Good one, MMM!:grin:

Wouldn't sticking a hairpin in a receptacle violate the listing and manufacturer's instructions of a receptacle? Where is the AHJ when you REALLY need them?

Red tags for all the kids with burned fingers and mental trauma!

[iwire]

Come on, give me a break! We Americans have turned into such a darned bunch of sissies, Geez! When I burned my fingers as a five year old, I guarantee I was running around the yard an hour late playing army or whatever.

Yeah no reason to try to prevent those injuries, we should just hand the kids hair pins and tell them to go for it.:roll:

[iwire]

Thanks, I would like to see it.

-Hal

Hal here is the substantiation that was turned into the NEC.

Here is the original substantiation:

Pediatric Burns:
During a 10-year period, from 1991 to 2001 , over 24 000 children in the United States were injured when they inserted foreign objects into electrical receptacles. Every year an average of at least 2 400 children are injured when tampering with electrical receptacles.
Attached is a summary of electrical burn and shock incidents occurring to children under the age of 10. This information is taken from the National Electronic Injury Surveilance System (NEISS) for the years 1991 to 2001 (www.cpsc. govllbrary/neiss.html). The U.S. Consumer Product Safety Commission s (CPSC) National Electronic Injury Surveilance System (NEISS) is a national probabilty sample of hospitals in the u.s. and its territories.
Patient information is collected from each NEISS hospital for every emergency visit involving an injury associated with consumer products. From this sample, the total number of product-related injuries treated in hospital emergency rooms nationwide can be estimated. NEISS collects data from a statistically valid sample of hospitals nationwide. NEISS calculates historic estimates based on these samples using statistical tools (weights, sampling error, trend data, adjustment for changes in sampling frame.. .). NEISS provides at least 2 numbers for each query conducted on their web site: The first number is the actual sample for monitored hospitals. These are actual cases that were
communicated to NEISS.
The second number is the historic estimate calculated by NEISS as explained above.
For example, the attached 2002 NEISS report shows a sample count of 129 and a historical estimate of 3277.
For the purpose of this analysis, we calculated a ratio, based on 10 years of data, between sample and historic estimate (we queried outlet related incidents concerning children ages 1 month to 10 years old). We then applied this ratio to our analysis. The intent is not to provide exact values but to attribute weight to major topics (age type of injury, objects used... These estimates have been calculated to identify the major issues associated with
children tampering with electrical receptacles.
Analysis of the NEISS information shows that at least 71% of all incidents occur at home , making dwelling units the prime location for receptacle related pediatric electric burns. The vast majority of injured children are under age 6. Victims age 2 and under represent 39% of cases, while those age 3 to 6 represent 50% of all cases.
The incidents occurred as the result of the child inserting an object into a receptacle. The following is a breakdown of the percent of incidents in which a child inserted a specific type of object into a receptacle:
Hairpin 32%
Key 17%
Wire 7%
Plug and cord 11 %
Pin/needle/screw/nail 5%
Paper clip/staple 5%
Tweezers/fie/tool/knife 3%
Jewelry/belt buckle 1%
Body part(finger) 12%
Open outlet 1%
Unknown 6%
Many of these objects are not perceived as dangerous by parents, perhaps explaining young children s easy accessto them and frequent rate of insertion.
The results of these incidents are very rarely fatal, but will result in electric shocks and mild to severe burns.
Most incidents are relatively superficial first or second-degree burns, where children are treated for reddened skin or blisters and released from the Emergency Room with topical treatment. Yet 8.7% - that is over 200 children per year - need to be hospitalized. 2% of all burns are 3 degree. These are burns so severe that they result in deeply charred skin and can require a skin graft if the burn is over 1 inch in size. Chidren are more susceptible to electric burns due to their tender skin and the frequent presence of liquid (saliva, juice, mil).
These burns can leave permanent, visible scars.
It is important to note that the NEISS report also includes the following four fatalities:
1991 - 2 year old male, Shawnee, OK, child placed key in electric receptacle
1994 - 23 month old male, Traverse City, MI , child stuck keys in electric receptacle
1995 - 3 year old female, Great Falls, MT, contact with electric receptacle , cardio respiratory arrest 1998 - 2 year old female, Springfield, MO, stuck unknown object into 1l0V receptacle In addition to the 1991-2001 reports, the 2002 National Electronic Injury Surveilance System (NEISS) report is included. The 2002 report states that there were 129 reported incidents, which indicates that there were an estimated total of 3 277 incidents in 2002 alone. The 2002 data covers all electrical outlet and receptacle
incidents occurring in dwellings and is the most recent information available. The 2002 data contains more detailed information than the NEISS reports for previous years and may be used to provide a better understanding of the reported incidents.
A study conducted by Canadian Hospitals Injury Reporting and Prevention Program (CHIRPP) reported similar data. For example: almost 80% of the Canadian incidents occurred in the home (compared with 71% in the US), 40% were 3-6 years of age (compared with 50% in the US). A recent presentation of the CHIRPP data concludes
that "legislated standards for the manufacture and use of child safe outlets along with education for parents and children" was called for. Attached is the CHIRPP raw data for electrical injuries to children aged 9 or less for 1996 - 2003.
Preventative Measures:
Parents, teachers , baby-sitters, grandparents and other caregivers are usually well aware of the dangers related to electricity and to receptacles in particular. Children are often taught to stay away from electric appliances and devices. Public health organizations such as hospitals, maternity wards and the CPSC provide adults with warnings and advice to "child-proof' their homes. There are several preventative measures available.
One option is to provide children with 24/7 permanent surveilance. No research is required to understand that this is an impossible request for the vast majority of parents or caregivers managing multiple chidren and tasks at any time.
Another commonly used solution is the "plastic receptacle cap . This small cap usually has 2 plastic blades that insert into the receptacle openings and block access to the live electrical contacts. Yet these caps can be poor protective systems. In 1997 , the Biokinetics Lab at Temple University in Philadelphia studied 4 different receptacle caps. They tested these caps with 47 children aged 2 to 4 years old. One type of cap was removed by 100% of the 2 year-olds in less than 10 seconds. Other caps were removed in less than a minute by most other chidren.
Since that test, UL has provided the industry with strict product guidelines, but this does not deal with existing older caps, and some caps stil remain un-listed. Also caps can only provide protection when they are inserted.
When they have been removed to plug in an appliance there is no longer any protection. When a child puls out a lamp cord there is no longer any protection. Receptacle caps provide protection only when they are in place.
Unfortunately, this can only be ensured by constant vigilance to be certain that the cap has not been removed.
There are also receptacle cover plates available in the market that are intended to provide increased protection for children. However, there is no standardized test program to evaluate these plates for tamper resistance and they are typically not UL listed as they can unintentionally introduce a hazard by restricting the full insertion of a plug. These "chid proof' plates must also be considered a temporary solution, as it is common practice for
homeowners to swap out cover plates for more decorative models from the huge selection at the local hardware store.
Listed Tamper Resistant receptacles provide the most effective means of preventing children from inserting foreign objects into receptacles. Tamper Resistant receptacles have the advantage of being passive protective devices. Once the Tamper Resistant receptacle is installed, a plug may be inserted and withdrawn for normal everyday operation, and the tamper resistant feature of the receptacle remains unaffected. The tamper resistant receptacle continuously provides protection without any user intervention. Decorative cover plates can be installed without affecting the protection. Tamper Resistant receptacles are a proven technology. Tamper Resistant receptacles have been used in hospitals for many years. Section 517. 18(C) of the National Electric Code
(NEC) recognizes the hazard of chidren inserting foreign objects into a receptacle and requires Tamper Resistance in Pediatric Locations. UL has established rigorous testing and evaluation requiements in UL498 for Tamper Resistant receptacles to insure that an object inserted into one of the plug blade openings cannot come into contact with a live part in the receptacle.
Tamper Resistant receptacles are permanently installed ... and forgotten, while providing the best child safety available.
NEMA Business Information Services Department estimates that the average increase in "retail" cost for tamper resistant receptacles wil be 50 cents each and that the average new home built in 2004 had 75 receptacles. This translates into $37. 50 increased cost for the average new home.
Tamper Resistant receptacles may not have prevented all the incidents in the NEISS reports but they undoubtedly would have provided a significant reduction in the injuries to children. Since most of the incidents occurred in homes, adopting an NEC requirement for Tamper Resistant receptacles in dwelling unit rooms where children are likely to come into contact with receptacles will substantially reduce the type of child injuries described in the NEISS reports.

[nakulak]

Everybody has been looking at this thing all wrong. Since we can see from the posted data, which since it was posted after all it must be absolutely true, that kids stick things into receptacle outlets there is an obvious overlooked fix. Forget the tamper proof receptacles, the little tykes might still be able to tamper using bypass methods they saw on the home improvement shows. So what I suggest is that the govt. require the moms to dress the little wonders in mini ppe clothing. Baby bubble suits. Insulated up to 5,000 volts and a completely ark flash free enviroment. Only then will we know for sure that little junior is protected against all unwanted electrical shocks and ark blast hazards.

hey that's not a bad idea.

maybe instead of the whole bubble, though, they could just attache 600v gloves to every hairpin ?

[480sparky]

Well, that settles it.

I'm going to be rich. Wealthy beyond my wildest imagination. Filthy, stinking rich. I can buy Bill Gates & Warren Buffet many times over.

I am going to invent the FOCI.

The Foreign Object Circuit Intererruptor.


It's simple, really.

Take the same technology that used in your car keys... you know, the little chips that are in your ignition key?

Put a chip like that into the end of every cord. The FOCI will not energize the receptacle unless the chip is near it. So all those little things kids like to stick into outlets will be rendered harmless.

http://i214.photobucket.com/albums/cc172/480sparky/Anim%20Gifs/ATT1506011.gif

Pardon me, I need to go see my realtor about buying that private island in the South Pacific. I also need to stock up on Pina Coladas.....

[nakulak]

don't laugh, someday (when I'm long gone) that awesome idea is gonna be the real deal

[480sparky]

don't laugh, someday (when I'm long gone) that awesome idea is gonna be the real deal

I'm also working on another safety-related product: The VGSC. Or Vacuum-Gap Service Conductor.

The principle is simple.... it's a conductor intended for use only as a service entrance conductor. It will be available in both tri-plex and URD configurations.

In order to promote total electrical safety, there will be a vacuum gap in the conductor of 2" for every 12" of length. When properly installed, I will guarantee there will be not more kids getting hurt from household electricity.

Once I sell it to every house in America, I will then require it's use in commercial and industrial settings.

[TwinCitySparky]

One of the junior members weighing in here... FWIW, IMHSO

Tiz a silly poll indeed.

But I'm a team player, so I voted :roll: Mine house was built 1977 - All bed circs. are MWBC. At least I dont allow extension cords in the bedrooms.

[hbiss]

From the list of objects: Body part (finger)

Somebody tell me how the heck a finger will fit in a recepticle slot. I don't care how young the kid is, I don't think even a premie's finger will fit.

"Statistics" like that cast doubt on the whole substantiation. Remember, causes reported for these injuries are in essence heresay. The parent, who is no expert and is emotional and not clearly thinking finds the child after the fact and reports to the ER doctor what they think has happened. That's where these statistics come from.

I would like to know how many injuries were caused by damaged, defective or improperly installed receptacles. You know a parent isn't going to know the difference and will just blame the kid.

-Hal

[ishium 80439]

I'm not really sure where to put my vote in the poll. The original part of my house (built in the 70's) has neither. We put an addition on 4 years ago and were required to have AFCI's. One of the AFCI's was repeatedly tripping. Sometimes it would hold for 2 days sometimes for 15 minutes. I've been doing residential work for quite awhile and did everything I could to troubleshoot this problem but could not isolate which section of wire was causing the problem, as it seemed to move around. All I could think of was I'm glad I don't have to charge a customer for this goose chase 'cause I don't think they would be too happy to have me back constantly and not find the problem. As soon as the final electrical was signed off I removed the AFCI breaker and replaced it w/ a standard one and haven't had aproblem since. And oddly enough I sleep pretty well at night.

[cschmid]

I have TR and they are pain in a--but I have gotten used to them..They are old style 2 wire type..I live in 1950's house and as I remodel I upgrade..but no need for AFCI dont really believe they are worth while..GFCI are worth while and I believe so are TR.. Yet I am still out on a AFCI breakers which requires such a high amp spark to work ( I believe I read somewhere around 70 amps) Dont see it myself..GFCI portion is what works and I do believe in GFCI..

[growler]

From the list of objects: Body part (finger)

Somebody tell me how the heck a finger will fit in a recepticle slot. I don't care how young the kid is, I don't think even a premie's finger will fit.



I assumed that the 12% where a finger was inserted that the cover plate was missing. That's the only way a finger is going to fit. Even for a TR to work the cover plate will need to be in place.

There was another article that stated that most of these accidents happen at meal times when children are left unattended.

If you look on the NFPA site they estimate that between 6-12 children die each year because of these accidents. ( where did they get these estimates, I can't find them anywhere?)

The CPSC states that for the average home the total cost of both TR recptacles and AFCI's will be $250 or less. They estimate $50 for the TR's and $200 for the AFCI's for a total of ten circuits. These are the same people that make the estimate for the number of children injured.

There is already a 2011 proposal for a "Dingo Alarm System". It appears that a Dingo ate someone's baby. Just Joking about that one. :grin:

[480sparky]

I assumed that the 12% where a finger was inserted that the cover plate was missing. That's the only way a finger is going to fit. Even for a TR to work the cover plate will need to be in place.

So how would a TR recep solve that?

[iwire]

If you look on the NFPA site they estimate that between 6-12 children die each year because of these accidents. ( where did they get these estimates, I can't find them anywhere?)

The substantiation provide for the code change claimed 4 deaths over the course of 10 years.

Can you find where the NFPA says '6-12'?

[growler]

The substantiation provide for the code change claimed 4 deaths over the course of 10 years.

Can you find where the NFPA says '6-12'?

PDF file. Second parargraph

http://www.nfpa.org/assets/files//PDF/Fact%20sheets/TamperResistant.pdf

[peter d]

Does anyone realize we are having a discussion about a receptacle that costs 95 cents? If I didn't know better, I might think this TR receptacle costs $95 a piece. :roll:

Oh, and the combo AFCI breakers from Homeline costs $38 at Lowes, probably less at a SqD distributor. That's a real budget buster. :roll:

[hbiss]

My neice and her husband were over my house last week. They have two girls aged 1 and 4 years. We ordered a couple of pizzas. We sit down to eat and I notice that the husband has pair of scissors and is cutting the pizza. WHAT? I remark that I have never seen anyone cut pizza with scissors. He says "they do if they have kids".

I guess they were afraid that one of the kids was going to grab the knife and stick it into a receptacle. This is the mindset we are talking about.

I should show them the statistics from above that says girls don't do things like this.

-Hal

[wirebender]

Does anyone realize we are having a discussion about a tax that costs cents?
That's a real budget buster. :roll:

Spoken right before the Boston Tea Party.:D

[bikeindy]

Does anyone realize we are having a discussion about a receptacle that costs 95 cents? If I didn't know better, I might think this TR receptacle costs $95 a piece. :roll:

Oh, and the combo AFCI breakers from Homeline costs $38 at Lowes, probably less at a SqD distributor. That's a real budget buster. :roll:

My objection to this rule is not about cost, It is about the NFPA thinking they are going to save the world from electrical hazards. It is not going to happen, and those of us who deal close with the customer every day don't like to explain why we can't just replace that bad receptacle with one that looks just like it. but instead they will now might need to change all of them to make them match. Or better yet we have juristictions here that like to make people bring things up to current code when they have a remodle done. "Yes maam I know you just want your basement finished but if you want to continue living in your home I will have to change out all of your receptacles, Yep all 100 of them, cuz the government wants to protect you from yourself."

[bikeindy]

My neice and her husband were over my house last week. They have two girls aged 1 and 4 years. We ordered a couple of pizzas. We sit down to eat and I notice that the husband has pair of scissors and is cutting the pizza. WHAT? I remark that I have never seen anyone cut pizza with scissors. He says "they do if they have kids".

I guess they were afraid that one of the kids was going to grab the knife and stick it into a receptacle. This is the mindset we are talking about.

I should show them the statistics from above that says girls don't do things like this.

-Hal

They really should outlaw those pizza cutters I mean you could cut off all the fingers on one hand if you are a small child leaving only one good hand for sticking things into receptacles.

[bikeindy]

I want to know why all these boys are carrying hair pins around they should be playing with guns.

[iwire]

My objection to this rule is not about cost, It is about the NFPA thinking they are going to save the world from electrical hazards.

:confused:

Hal, what is the purpose of the NEC?

[crossman]

To sell code books at 75 bucks a pop so the CMP members can get a nice vacation every year?

Forgive me, I couldn't help it. The CMPs do a wonderful and thankless job.

[bikeindy]

:confused:

Hal, what is the purpose of the NEC?

Hal Might think it is to stop Fires but I'm Dan. I know that the code is good but the National Fire Protection Agency can't stop all the electrical hazards from happening no matter what they try and they are getting ridiculous IMO. now if those kids were lighting up into balls of fire and causing fire hazzards I could see the point (now I am getting ridiculous) I think the NFPA is going too far thats all I am saying.

Oh yeah GO PATS!

[iwire]

I'm Dan,

I apologize Dan. http://forums.mikeholt.com/images/icons/icon11.gif

[Energy-Miser]

We don't have small kids, so did not feel like we needed TR receptacles. I did try to install AFCI breakers at my house, but found out that my bedroom circuits were multi-branch, and that the regular AFCI's won't work with these. e/m

[hbiss]

What is the purpose of the NEC? To protect people and property. No question there. Problem is are they getting too "political" and manipulated by manufacturers who are eager to sell a product because they claim it is needed.

It's kind of like the FDA being lobbied to approve a new drug that a drug company made all kind of claims about. Then we come to find out a few years later that it really does nothing.

-Hal

[bikeindy]

What is the purpose of the NEC? To protect people and property. No question there. Problem is are they getting too "political" and manipulated by manufacturers who are eager to sell a product because they claim it is needed.

It's kind of like the FDA being lobbied to approve a new drug that a drug company made all kind of claims about. Then we come to find out a few years later that it really does nothing.

-Hal

Well stated.

[stickboy1375]

What is the purpose of the NEC? To protect people and property. No question there. Problem is are they getting too "political" and manipulated by manufacturers who are eager to sell a product because they claim it is needed.



-Hal


You have to start somewhere so hear me out, what IF in 20 years not one kid is burned or injured from sticking some object into an electrical receptacle... are you telling me this is a bad thing????

[ITO]

You have to start somewhere so hear me out, what IF in 20 years not one kid is burned or injured from sticking some object into an electrical receptacle... are you telling me this is a bad thing????

In all honesty I think McDonald's poses a greater health risk to children than the lack of tamper proof receptacles.

Tell me, who is going to save the fat kids?

[bikeindy]

You have to start somewhere so hear me out, what IF in 20 years not one kid is burned or injured from sticking some object into an electrical receptacle... are you telling me this is a bad thing????
What IF I go watch the game and someone close this thread.

[hbiss]

First, a zero effect will never happen. Second, I don't believe the submitted data reflects accurately what is actually happening.

Third, I would have no problem if manufacturers changed the design of every 15 and 20A duplex receptacle they make to TR if they think it will improve safety. This is nickle and dime stuff and after all it is their idea. Once non-TR receptacle stock is replaced on the supply house shelves everybody will be using them. I don't see why the NEC is even involved, sounds to me like this should be a UL change if anything.

-Hal

[stickboy1375]

In all honesty I think McDonald's poses a greater health risk to children than the lack of tamper proof receptacles.

Tell me, who is going to save the fat kids?


Who cares? Why does eveyone against TR decide to throw some remark un-electrically related? How does it even fit into the equation?

[ITO]

Who cares? Why does eveyone against TR decide to throw some remark un-electrically related? How does it even fit into the equation?

It was sarcasm... I think I need to change my sig now.

[stickboy1375]

It was sarcasm... I think I need to change my sig now.
Gotcha... ;)

[peter d]

Problem is are they getting too "political" and manipulated by manufacturers who are eager to sell a product because they claim it is needed.


That horse left the gate a long time ago. Manufacturers have held influence over the code making process for decades. Why are a few rules about receptacles and arc detecting circuit breakers causing such an uproar all of a sudden?

Oh, I know, it's all about gov't intrusion. :roll: I'm "right wing" politically and just as against big government as many of you are, but I guess I'll be a raging liberal on these rules.

[ITO]

I think the fact that it is such a blatant insider deal, that it gets people’s ire up. Sure industry insiders have been manipulating the process for many years now, but when they do so in such neat little packages, it tends to spotlight the problem.

Sort of like we all know politicians steal and even live with it to some extent, but when they steal the silverware out of the Whitehouse it kind of makes your blood boil.

[cdboe]

I checked, my dad says my memory is correct. I was one of those kids. I shocked myself on many occasions as a toddler.

You've convinced me. First to the Kids in Ellensburg this weekend for the 1 and 3 year grand kids, then the rest of the family that agree.

[LawnGuyLandSparky]

I think the fact that it is such a blatant insider deal, that it gets people’s ire up. Sure industry insiders have been manipulating the process for many years now, but when they do so in such neat little packages, it tends to spotlight the problem.

Sort of like we all know politicians steal and even live with it to some extent, but when they steal the silverware out of the Whitehouse it kind of makes your blood boil.

Stealing silverware and leaving the country with a budget surplus. Now we're at 5 trillion debt. But as long as the silverware remains behind, some people think that's just jake. :grin:

[r_merc]

As for TR's I will be installing those as soon as they are available in my choice of manufacturer. I hate those Human proof Child Caps.

[goofy256256]

Since I was doing a major upgrade, I was buying CBs and TRs for the kid's bedroom anyway. So I put AFCI in the breaker box. Then I found out the breaker serves my wife's computer, and the computer stopped working one day. The AFCI had tripped! AFCI is one more failure mode for computers.

[electricmanscott]

Since I was doing a major upgrade, I was buying CBs and TRs for the kid's bedroom anyway. So I put AFCI in the breaker box. Then I found out the breaker serves my wife's computer, and the computer stopped working one day. The AFCI had tripped! AFCI is one more failure mode for computers.


Did you find the reason for the breaker tipping? I would be more concerned with why than the fact that it did trip.

[Jim_BE]

My house was built in 1962 no gfic's, mostly 14/2 fiber covered romex. I have been slowly re wiring the house as time and money allow as I remodel each room... my kids are grown and no grandchildren running around yet but I have been putting in the arc faults as I go. They have been a "p i t a" in a way since I have a bride that likes to yank out a vacuum cleaner cord with the machine still running... what do I do now ? get a housekeeper, get rid of the bride, put in a central vac ... what :-? :-? :-? :-? any suggestions ?