Just painted some backboards...

[mdshunk]

Because I'm always looking for low-cost ways to improve the perception of value, I painted some panel backboards today to use during service changes. As I expected, they'd be downright expensive. From one sheet of plywood, I cut two at 24x48 and three at 24x32.

The backboards cost out as follows:
Sheet of 23/32" Plywood, $20.88. That's $5.22 for each 200 amp backboard, and $3.48 for each 100 amp backboard. Paint was 23.74 for a gallon, and one quart exactly does three coats on all 5 backboards that you get from one sheet (2 front, 1 back). That's $1.48 in paint for the 200 amp backboard, and $.99 in paint for the 100 amp backboard. It takes 21 minutes to paint all three coats on each 200 amp backboard at 7 minutes per coat. Using a total real labor cost of $41.00/hour, it costs $12.30 to paint each 200 amp backboard. It takes 12 minutes to paint all three coats on each 100 amp backboard at 4 minutes per coat. Using labor data from the line above, it costs $8.20 to paint each 100 amp backboard. It takes 5 minutes to clean up between each of the three coats. Using labor data from above, it costs $2.56 per 200 amp backboard and $1.70 per 100 amp backboard for clean up tasks (washing out brush). I guessed at brush wear, and ascribed $.25 per 200 amp backboard and $.17 per 100 amp backboard.

That brings the total real costs before markup at $21.81 per 200 amp backboard and $14.54 per 100 amp backboard. They'll end up being pretty expensive, but they might be good tasks for "fill in" work for a guy needing to fill an hour at the end of the day who you might otherwise let go home with a full day's pay or who might just chat up the office girls.

[480sparky]

Don't believe in benchmarking, do ya, Marc? :grin:

[mdshunk]

Don't believe in benchmarking, do ya, Marc? :grin:That's how I roll. You can't find labor units on backboard making in the Estimating PAL.

I just realized that I didn't account for time getting the plywood or cutting it up, but the basic idea is still the same. I routered a cove on the edges too, which took all of two minutes for all 5 since I happened to already have a suitable bit chucked up in the router.

I can't buy pre-painted backboards at any of my supply houses like some other guys can, so I thought I'd see how much it would cost to make some. 'spensive buggers if an electrician makes them. Like when I'm on T&M work, I always ask if they want me to sweep up or if they want to. I tell them, "Electricians are expensive maids", with a big smile. :wink:

[dSilanskas]

I have never seen anyone paint a backboard for a panel. Usually we just buy 1/2 sheet 3/4 ply one side sanded.

[stickboy1375]

I have never seen anyone paint a backboard for a panel. Usually we just buy 1/2 sheet 3/4 ply one side sanded.

Some just do it nice. :) I'll buy a 4x8 sheet and cut it into 3rd's for my panels...

[electricalperson]

im sure people wont mind paying a little extra for a nice piece of wood. makes for a much better professional looking install. :grin:

[480sparky]

I'm just waiting for the Megger report on them. :grin: :grin:

[Poolside]

Had me wondering about the backboards. :-? What are they used for?

Of course in these parts of the developed world, 99% of the services are of the combination meter/load center type that is flush mounted in stucco finish.


One of the big benefits to these forums is a chance to get to learn how things are installed and dealt with from around the country.:smile:

- Greg

[mdshunk]

im sure people wont mind paying a little extra for a nice piece of wood.
They might not, but I'm already near the high end of the market from a price standpoint. Any other material would justify a higher price, but I'm not certain that it is one the market would bear. I might legitimately have to add in 80 or 100 bucks to the price for a nice painted backboard with nicely routered edges. It was mostly an experiment, is all. If I can figure out a way to get these things cut, routered, and painted for almost nothing, I'll be using them.

[480sparky]

Sounds like a good 'make-work' project for slow work weeks. Pre-fab enough for several projects and you can get your per-unit price down.

[mdshunk]

Sounds like a good 'make-work' project for slow work weeks. Pre-fab enough for several projects and you can get your per-unit price down.I never have slow weeks, but I sometimes do have an hour or two in a man's day here and there to fill out. Sometimes, they'd just go home because they ran long on a previous day. Other times, they might need a bit of work. Painting or cutting backboards might be more interesting than cleaning out the truck for the billionth time.

[mdshunk]

Had me wondering about the backboards. :-? What are they used for?
Basement panels, mainly. When the basement has a block wall or poured concrete wall, many installers favor fixing a piece of plywood to the concrete or block onto which the panel is fixed and it gives them a place above the panel to staple the cables to. On older buildings with stone foundation walls for the basement, two parallel 2x4's are "hung" from the floor joists next to the stone wall, and the plywood backboard is fixed to those 2x4's. I have a job coming up where a subpanel will be mounted on a backboard which will be attached to an existing 6x6 wooden post in a basement.

[480sparky]

Does wherever you buy the plywood from have a panel saw? If so, what would they charge you to cut the sheets instead of you doing it? And how would that compare to your labor costs?

[mdshunk]

Does wherever you buy the plywood from have a panel saw? If so, what would they charge you to cut the sheets instead of you doing it? And how would that compare to your labor costs?
Yes. You'd still have to stand there and watch them cut them (after you already waited while they were summoned), which is about the same amount of time it took me to put a couple marks on the plywood and cut them myself. Labor would be the same in that case. The only savings would be the wear on my own saw blade.

[480sparky]

Sounds like your shopping at (gasp!) Home Despot.

Can you have then cut for you and have them ready for when you arrive? You'll also save on labor because you aren't man-handling full sheets....

[mdshunk]

Can you have then cut for you and have them ready for when you arrive?
I think I'd have about a 23.46% chance of them getting it right, even if I faxed them a picture. I fax very clear material orders to my professional supply house, normally with part numbers and all, they still get it wrong sometimes.

[BryanMD]

Sub it out to a cabinet shop.

panel saw, router table, spray booth, no saw dust, no spilled paint

[mdshunk]

Sub it out to a cabinet shop.

panel saw, router table, spray booth, no saw dust, no spilled paint
Have you ever done that? My gut tells me they'd be the most expensive (and best looking) panel backboards known to mankind.

You did just spark an idea, however. What about white melamine covered plywood? Cut to size, router the edge, and no painting required! I'll have to price out a sheet of that stuff. That might be pretty high-class for not too much money.

[tonyou812]

Because I'm always looking for low-cost ways to improve the perception of value, I painted some panel backboards today to use during service changes. As I expected, they'd be downright expensive. From one sheet of plywood, I cut two at 24x48 and three at 24x32.

The backboards cost out as follows:
Sheet of 23/32" Plywood, $20.88. That's $5.22 for each 200 amp backboard, and $3.48 for each 100 amp backboard. Paint was 23.74 for a gallon, and one quart exactly does three coats on all 5 backboards that you get from one sheet (2 front, 1 back). That's $1.48 in paint for the 200 amp backboard, and $.99 in paint for the 100 amp backboard. It takes 21 minutes to paint all three coats on each 200 amp backboard at 7 minutes per coat. Using a total real labor cost of $41.00/hour, it costs $12.30 to paint each 200 amp backboard. It takes 12 minutes to paint all three coats on each 100 amp backboard at 4 minutes per coat. Using labor data from the line above, it costs $8.20 to paint each 100 amp backboard. It takes 5 minutes to clean up between each of the three coats. Using labor data from above, it costs $2.56 per 200 amp backboard and $1.70 per 100 amp backboard for clean up tasks (washing out brush). I guessed at brush wear, and ascribed $.25 per 200 amp backboard and $.17 per 100 amp backboard.

That brings the total real costs before markup at $21.81 per 200 amp backboard and $14.54 per 100 amp backboard. They'll end up being pretty expensive, but they might be good tasks for "fill in" work for a guy needing to fill an hour at the end of the day who you might otherwise let go home with a full day's pay or who might just chat up the office girls.
Hey marc ever hear of dumpster diving. Its always shocks me at how much wood winds up in the bin at most construction sites. If im working on the site I have no problem in asking the GC if its ok if i take some wood.Even if its only big enough for one service ill take it. And its not even because im cheap, I just think its shamefull at this day in age to throw out that kind material. As of right now I have about 8-9 boards cut and painted black and ready to go. Yea I know its sad but thats usually what my Sundays consist of. Truck cleaning, organizing my garage/shop and getting ready for the comming week.

[iwire]

I am thinking if you go cabinet shop forget the paint, offer Cherry or Walnut veneers. :D

[quogueelectric]

I do it on the fly the morning of the service change. Get 1/2 sheet 3/4 from home depot already cut. Set it on my foldup table that fits in the truck. 2 coats of either Battleship grey or Hunter green customer preference. A 2in throwaway brush and as I am setting up the paint is a drying. Once the old panel is stripped a few shots from a hilti dx 36m and bing bang zoom the panel is going up already knocked out and ready for wire. Many many customers have comented on how nice it looks and believe me I am charging them for the extra 20 bucks in material.

[Poolside]

Basement panels, mainly. When the basement has a block wall or poured concrete wall, many installers favor fixing a piece of plywood to the concrete or block onto which the panel is fixed and it gives them a place above the panel to staple the cables to. On older buildings with stone foundation walls for the basement, two parallel 2x4's are "hung" from the floor joists next to the stone wall, and the plywood backboard is fixed to those 2x4's. I have a job coming up where a subpanel will be mounted on a backboard which will be attached to an existing 6x6 wooden post in a basement.

Thanks. Very very few basements out here.

- Greg

[mdshunk]

Hey marc ever hear of dumpster diving.
:grin: That would be a lot of dumpster diving. I do in around 200 service upgrades in a year's time.

[tonyou812]

Sub it out to a cabinet shop.

panel saw, router table, spray booth, no saw dust, no spilled paint
If im doing a pool I like to dress up the boards that the pool equipment goes on. I love it when the pool guys do a double take and say wow thats nice.
That and I love to work with wood.

[tonyou812]

:grin: That would be a lot of dumpster diving. I do in around 200 service upgrades in a year's time.
WOW I cant wait till I reach those numbers, but I see your point.

[jdsmith]

Yes. You'd still have to stand there and watch them cut them (after you already waited while they were summoned), which is about the same amount of time it took me to put a couple marks on the plywood and cut them myself.

Hard to believe you couldn't make a phone call and have them cut to size waiting to be picked up at a lumberyard. If you made a phone call to a cabinet shop I would think they'd round over the edges too after they cut them. This is an equivalent level of service to calling in a wire cut and having it waiting at the counter 15 minutes later ready to go rather than waiting while the guy walks to the other end of the building, measures and cuts, drags it back, and complains about the weight and how much he hates wire cuts while the invoice prints.

I'm curious about the megger results too. Next thing you know the megger can be used to determine how sharp the router bit was.:grin:

Edit: Wow, i type slow. 11 other responses while I was typing!

[mdshunk]

WOW I cant wait till I reach those numbers, but I see your point.Not personally, mind you, but that's how much wood we're talking about in my case.

[mdshunk]

Hard to believe you couldn't make a phone call and have them cut to size waiting to be picked up at a lumberyard.
Oh, I suspect that I probably could if I wanted to look into it enough. My main points were to both demonstrate how expensive something like this can potentially be (which some guys might be giving away for free) and to demonstrate simple job costing for a simple unit task like this. Additionally, I hoped someone might chime in with a way to get these things made up for free that I hadn't thought of. It just popped into my head that we have a retarded person's place here that makes things for companies for a small fee, and they have a wood shop. Something to look into, maybe.

[tonyou812]

Now that you bring it up I bet alot of guys never even account for something like that. It can really add up when your in your leauge.

[mdshunk]

Now that you bring it up I bet alot of guys never even account for something like that. It can really add up when your in your leauge.
Regardless of what arbitrary 'league' a guy thinks he's in, he should not give anything away for free if he can help it. A couple of years ago I figured out that I was giving away thousands of dollars worth of unaccounted for hardware, like bolts, washers, screws, etc.

[SiddMartin]

:grin: That would be a lot of dumpster diving. I do in around 200 service upgrades in a year's time.

that comes to like 1.1 services everyother day, 7 days a week or 3/4 of a service everyday 5 days a wk. Is that all you do?:grin:

[BryanMD]

Regardless of what arbitrary 'league' a guy thinks he's in, he should not give anything away for free if he can help it. A couple of years ago I figured out that I was giving away thousands of dollars worth of unaccounted for hardware, like bolts, washers, screws, etc.

As a customer I hate to be nickel and dimed.

Charge an extra dollar for a part if you must but don't clutter up the invoice with errata and then make me pay for your time to write out that errata.

[mdshunk]

As a customer I hate to be nickel and dimed.
Neither do I. I only want to pay for what was used on my work. :wink:

Charge an extra dollar for a part if you must but don't clutter up the invoice with errata and then make me pay for your time to write out that errata.If you itemize invoices, that's mistake #1. You're begging to be hassled about the bill.

[mdshunk]

that comes to like 1.1 services everyother day, 7 days a week or 3/4 of a service everyday 5 days a wk. Is that all you do?:grin:
You're assuming too much.

[e57]

No basements in my area - but why install a back-board at all? :-?

[stickboy1375]

No basements in my area - but why install a back-board at all? :-?

Imagine mounting all this to concrete...
http://i171.photobucket.com/albums/u292/stickboy1375/octobernovember07126.jpg

[BryanMD]

No basements in my area - but why install a back-board at all? :-?

Can't cite the code (probably a bldg code) but it is about insulation & condensation effects in often untempered rooms with the metal against masonry.

[stickboy1375]

Can't cite the code (probably a bldg code) but it is about insulation & condensation effects in often untempered rooms with the metal against masonry.


Your thinking about 312.2(A), but most panels come with a 1/4" bump on the back from the factory....

[e57]

Imagine mounting all this to concrete...
http://i171.photobucket.com/albums/u292/stickboy1375/octobernovember07126.jpg

Hilti gun... BLAM - BLAM!!! (Edit: Hilty gun some uni-strut and hang the whole mess on it...)

BryanMD - never heard that one. Never seen any damage from being on concrete... Then again - sub grade conditions are rare here. And we hardly have weather - so to speak.... :D

[tonyou812]

I could be mistaken but it looks like your wires might be what some consider bundling. Are those Jimmy straps? and are they rated for romex?

[Denis]

I consider going to the re-strore high class dumpster diving :D

paint $1-5 / gallon
brush or roller $1-5
backboard $1-5
------------------
$3-15 materials


Misc. wire, fittings, fixtures, bulbs, etc...


you may want to consider samsung staron or other similar solid surface countertop material

countertop being of correct width will reduce the number of cuts required.

roller or spray should increase efficiency


usually 2x4 mounted at top and bottom behind panel is good enough

[mdshunk]

I could be mistaken but it looks like your wires might be what some consider bundling. Are those Jimmy straps? and are they rated for romex?
Colorado Jim's are checked out for Romex, but they look like Stackers to me in his picture.

[tonyou812]

I consider going to the re-strore high class dumpster diving :D

paint $1-5 / gallon
brush or roller $1-5
backboard $1-5
------------------
$3-15 materials


Misc. wire, fittings, fixtures, bulbs, etc...


you may want to consider samsung staron or other similar solid surface countertop material

countertop being of correct width will reduce the number of cuts required.

roller or spray should increase efficiency


usually 2x4 mounted at top and bottom behind panel is good enough
It may be enough but not very Pretty for $ 2500 and up

[mdshunk]

No basements in my area - but why install a back-board at all? :-?
Tradition, mainly. Plus, it's really the only way with stone foundations, which are very prevalent. Probably 75% of service changes involve basements with stone foundations in the northeast.

edit...added 'northeast' qualifier.

[e57]

Tradition, mainly. Plus, it's really the only way with stone foundations, which are very prevalent. Probably 75% of service changes involve basements with stone foundations in the northeast.

edit...added 'northeast' qualifier.

Hmmmm... Stone walls - I could see that..... :wink: Uneven surfaces etc....

[quogueelectric]

Hmmmm... Stone walls - I could see that..... :wink: Uneven surfaces etc....

Did you ever try to staple to a stone? This is the main reason. Screw a surface mount gfi box to stone? Get it now? :wink: Oh btw you need a certification card to use the hilti bing bang zoom gun too in my area. Welcome to new york.

[tonyou812]

Colorado Jim's are checked out for Romex, but they look like Stackers to me in his picture.
oooooohhh yea they are stackers, had to turn up the brightness on my screen a bit. That looks real nice, never though of using them like that. It looks alot neater than stapling them all in a row. nice work

[electricmanscott]

Here is my view on this...If you did 200 services a year and paid X $$ for painting backboards .... I would say charge the same price and do not paint the backboards and you just saved X $$ for the company.

I have never painted a backboard and never will. The reality is the new plywood is still nicer than any pther part of the old dingy basement.

I understand the point of trying to sell a nicer product, the problem is that the average customer doesn't.

[iwire]

Imagine mounting all this to concrete...


No big deal with the right tools. :)

But I like a back board for residential panels as well. I have a stone foundation so my back board is actually 4' by 8' x 3/4" mounted horizontally with a few coats of white paint. Room for panels, phone, cable and an EBU. 8-)

[realolman]

I am thinking if you go cabinet shop forget the paint, offer Cherry or Walnut veneers. :D

Veneers ?!? I don wan no estinkin veneers:smile:

[emahler]

They might not, but I'm already near the high end of the market from a price standpoint. Any other material would justify a higher price, but I'm not certain that it is one the market would bear. I might legitimately have to add in 80 or 100 bucks to the price for a nice painted backboard with nicely routered edges. It was mostly an experiment, is all. If I can figure out a way to get these things cut, routered, and painted for almost nothing, I'll be using them.

I haven't read through the responses yet..but one of our supply houses here in the NE sells painted boards for around $25, ready to go...not routered mind you, but nice and painted...looks good...

[emahler]

Here is my view on this...If you did 200 services a year and paid X $$ for painting backboards .... I would say charge the same price and do not paint the backboards and you just saved X $$ for the company.

I have never painted a backboard and never will. The reality is the new plywood is still nicer than any pther part of the old dingy basement.

I understand the point of trying to sell a nicer product, the problem is that the average customer doesn't.

someone will come along with the correct code, but if i'm correct the reason for painting the wood isn't aesthetics, but rather the paint is supposed to be fire retardant...it's to keep the wood from burning...

[iwire]

someone will come along with the correct code, but if i'm correct the reason for painting the wood isn't aesthetics, but rather the paint is supposed to be fire retardant...it's to keep the wood from burning...

There is no NEC rule for that and IMO it is just one of those things that many people think is code but it is really just a 'we always do it that way' tradition.

I have seen it in job specs 'shall be painted with fire resistant paint' etc.

[emahler]

There is no NEC rule for that and IMO it is just one of those things that many people think is code but it is really just a 'we always do it that way' tradition.

I have seen it in job specs 'shall be painted with fire resistant paint' etc.

that could be what i'm thinking of...could be building code...could be ICC, UCC, who knows...or it could be a fantasy in my head...i don't know....

[JohnJ0906]

someone will come along with the correct code, but if i'm correct the reason for painting the wood isn't aesthetics, but rather the paint is supposed to be fire retardant...it's to keep the wood from burning...

Use FR plywood. I doubt the paint most people used is fire resistant. If anything, it would make it easier to burn.

This might be in the building codes, I don't know. I always see FR ply in commercial, but never in residential. :-? And rarely painted.

[emahler]

quick search seems to just pull up a lot of job specs that require it...never mind...carry on...

[electricmanscott]

We're drifting towards nonsense......:wink:

[iwire]

This might be in the building codes, I don't know. I always see FR ply in commercial, but never in residential. :-? And rarely painted.

I agree, I can see a building code requiring FR plywood in some construction types, but not in typical dwelling units. :)

[480sparky]

someone will come along with the correct code, but if i'm correct the reason for painting the wood isn't aesthetics, but rather the paint is supposed to be fire retardant...it's to keep the wood from burning...

Probably someone started doing that because early in their career they did a job where that was spec'ed.
They were told to 'Paint these backer boards with this fire-retardant paint."
"Why?", asks the apprentice.
"Because we're required to." is the foremans' response.

[Tiger Electrical]

I've used oak veneer plywood without paint & it looked pretty sharp. I wonder how the cost would compare to upgrade the material & forget the paint.

Dave

[stickboy1375]

I could be mistaken but it looks like your wires might be what some consider bundling. Are those Jimmy straps? and are they rated for romex?

They are called stak-it's from 3M., they are rated for NM. Also, its not more than 24"...

[emahler]

Probably someone started doing that because early in their career they did a job where that was spec'ed.
They were told to 'Paint these backer boards with this fire-retardant paint."
"Why?", asks the apprentice.
"Because we're required to." is the foremans' response.

if it's good enough for an engineer, it's good enough for me:D

actually, unless we buy a pre-painted board (which i don't know if it's fire retardant paint or not), we never paint backboards for a resi service...

[dcspector]

I agree, I can see a building code requiring FR plywood in some construction types, but not in typical dwelling units. :)

Yeah Bob only in type 1 and 2 construction per IBC 603 Dwellings are typically not.

[tonyou812]

They are called stak-it's from 3M., they are rated for NM. Also, its not more than 24"...
My bad, it was late when i looked at the picture

[satcom]

if it's good enough for an engineer, it's good enough for me:D

actually, unless we buy a pre-painted board (which i don't know if it's fire retardant paint or not), we never paint backboards for a resi service...

I knew you had some hack in you!

The plywood they use today, does not need paint, we like the idea of using stackers to dress the panel.

[emahler]

I knew you had some hack in you!

The plywood they use today, does not need paint, we like the idea of using stackers to dress the panel.

there's a lot of hack in me...:D

[bikeindy]

Pictures...I want to see pitures. Please?.